Wagner the man?

[bringbackchippy 51]

So l posted after our defeat at Rotherham, that the squad wasn't good enough.  Lot of you saying typical reaction to one defeat. The likes of Gibbs, Fassnactk, Stacey, not the quality we need.

Well what was going on yesterday? 11 behind the ball, hoof ball, midfield went missing. I am convinced Wagner is not good enough.

Let's see what happens against a good side like Leicester!

[cambridgeshire canary 6,721]

Well, we were great in the 1st half but yes sadly the 2nd half was back to looking like how we did at Rotherham. Not really sure why either, Still, we won so I can't complain too much. Far as I'm concerned Leicester is a free hit and the result against them won't define our season

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

I think that’s incredibly harsh when you look at the table. 

However, there are one or two things that concern me with Wagner. Most notably, his in game substitutions. If Forshaw is fit enough to be on the bench, then he’s exactly the player you bring on around the hour mark with the game heading the way it was. But then again, we ground out the win, so I’m wrong? In general, his use of subs has been questionable. 

We’ve also had three bad 45 minutes in the last 2 games. We were fortunate yesterday, and it was the sort of game that reminded me of the ‘Dean Smith run’ last year where we had spells of dominance but rode our luck. We got the results but it didn’t last. Prior to Rotherham it was brilliant, but I’m convinced Sargent is so integral to the team and the way Wagner plays.

[Commonsense 624]

37 minutes ago, bringbackchippy said:

So l posted after our defeat at Rotherham, that the squad wasn't good enough.  Lot of you saying typical reaction to one defeat. The likes of Gibbs, Fassnactk, Stacey, not the quality we need.

Well what was going on yesterday? 11 behind the ball, hoof ball, midfield went missing. I am convinced Wagner is not good enough.

Let's see what happens against a good side like Leicester!

In what way is Stacey not good enough?

[BroadstairsR 2,171]

4 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

In what way is Stacey not good enough?

Include both Fassnacht and the young Liam Gibbs in that. The former has slotted in well whilst the latter has great promise and will only get better.

[chicken 2,627]

Oh dear, the wheels coming off  the pant wetting train?

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

Bizarre trio of players to be criticising 

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Some people around here are not happy unless we are in a total shambles.

Op, go out get a woman (or a man) have a few beers, go on holiday do something fun.

[hogesar 9,676]

54 minutes ago, bringbackchippy said:

So l posted after our defeat at Rotherham, that the squad wasn't good enough.  Lot of you saying typical reaction to one defeat. The likes of Gibbs, Fassnactk, Stacey, not the quality we need.

Well what was going on yesterday? 11 behind the ball, hoof ball, midfield went missing. I am convinced Wagner is not good enough.

Let's see what happens against a good side like Leicester!

I'm pleased you've managed to start a thread that isn't intrinsically racist for once, but why do we need to judge ourselves against Leicester? They're comfortably the best side in the league and have made much better teams than ours like Southampton look bang average.

Instead, it matters what you do in all 46 games. And so far we're doing alright. 

Also you've weirdly picked some of our better players as your weak list, so it turns out your views on football are as modern and valid as your views on race.

[Mason 47 1,379]

41 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

If Forshaw is fit enough to be on the bench, then he’s exactly the player you bring on around the hour mark with the game heading the way it was. But then again, we ground out the win, so I’m wrong? 

The key decision would be more who comes off for Forshaw. We were already under pressure, so taking off a forward for a defensive player wasn't going to remedy that much. Similarly if you take Sara out then you're effectively saying 'we are no longer trying to score' which, again, we were already effectively pinned in. It's like that old football fan cliche that having 3 centre backs on makes you better defensively.

I think our subs added energy and legs-  Placheta, Hernandez, Gibbs, Springett in particular (Hwang looked a little lost but that's to be expected). Looked to me like we knew we were losing the out-ball battle so tried a shift to players carrying the ball forward (whether or not that was a success is a different matter)

If there is a criticism- one I see myself- is particularly in those vital inside-forward positions we have problematic players once you get past the starters. Hernandez is incredibly successful at finding space on the ball inside the box but incredibly weak at doing anything in that situation. Springett runs an awful lot but hasn't looked like contributing any more than that so far. The fact that Placheta is the standout of the 3 probably says something.

[Top corner 228]

Even though we were under a lot of pressure in the second half, we still held on for a hard fought 3 points. Plenty of teams would have collapsed & conceded an equaliser & maybe even lost. Teams who get promoted have to be able to win in different ways, whether being convincing or or a hard fought win.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

In terms of quality we're not one of the best sides in the league anymore so we're going to have periods where the opposition get on top of us and I'd rather we defended in numbers and didn't mess around tippy tappying it around at the back when the option isn't on if defending a 1-0 lead.  Hoofball is smashing it high and long at every opportunity and hoping the ball breaks for you, we play a lot more long passes now but that's a good thing and it makes us less predictable in attack and means we don't always put ourselves under unnecessary pressure when we're playing out but we're not a hoofball team. Besides we still mostly tried to play out, just not every single time when the option wasn't on and I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that, after the last few years I'm sick of us giving the ball away in dangerous areas and conceding soft goals.

In terms of defending deep Stoke obviously got a rocket from AN and came out a different team in the second half. For us the ball wasn't sticking up top, Idah and Barnes didn't have great games and Rowe always tires early into the second half so we had to stick men behind the ball to defend our lead, it's also a completely normal thing to do and committing too many men forward when you're ahead is quite naive and would have likely lead to Stoke getting an equalizer. If you watch PL teams for example they all stick 11 men behind the ball when they're under pressure, it's a sign of good management that players are working just as hard in defence as they are in attack and leaving gaps when the opposition are having a good spell that they can easily play through when you're 1-0 up would be extremely naive. 

Wagner's not perfect, I dread it every time he makes subs for example but overall we look a decent side this year after having spent very little money and losing some key players plus the players are working extremely hard for him and we seem to have a stronger mentality than we've had for a while. When this style of football clicks for us it's very exciting to watch when we're in attack and without the ball it's refreshing to see a Norwich team that actually puts in tackles, tracks runners, wins second balls and gets back in numbers to work hard defensively. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

It was an awful 2nd half compared to the first. But credit Alex Neil for exposing our left back position as one to get at us. They kept their composure at the start of the 2nd half, played it from the back and overloaded on our left. I assume that was wha tthe changes were for on that side. To try and press Stoke back with Placheta and Onel. But Onel was poor and we were wide open. 

Yes we played some longer balls but surely that is good at times. Unless you are ManC, you need to mix your game up.

I think its fair to criticise the 2nd half performance but for the right reasons. Not blame the coach for trying something different.

[Gordon Bennett 783]

No team in this league is going to nail every single half of football they play. Our league position and points total so far is beyond what anyone could have expected, as has been said Leicester are way better than anyone else so a defeat would be a surprise on Wednesday. 

Everything is going pretty well, probably better to save the slagging off for when it's not.

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,821]

3 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

We were fortunate yesterday, and it was the sort of game that reminded me of the ‘Dean Smith run’ last year where we had spells of dominance but rode our luck. 

Yeah, we certainly did ride our luck and were ultimately fortunate to get the three points.

However, certainly towards the end of last season, we would've crumbled under pressure and possibly even lost that game, whereas at least this team has far more steel and backbone about them. We were assisted by Stoke's poor finishing and lady luck, but the ends justify the means.

We need to be more consistent though; we were excellent in the first half but poor in the second. 

 

2 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

If there is a criticism- one I see myself- is particularly in those vital inside-forward positions we have problematic players once you get past the starters. Hernandez is incredibly successful at finding space on the ball inside the box but incredibly weak at doing anything in that situation. Springett runs an awful lot but hasn't looked like contributing any more than that so far. The fact that Placheta is the standout of the 3 probably says something.

Hopefully Sainz is the solution to that problem. I'm not sure what the latest is on his return, maybe after the next international break?

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i do not think you can fairly judge at the moment due to Sargent being injured ,

i was one of the ones who wanted Wagner sacked at end of season ,

At the moment he has turned it around and we are getting points he is doing very well 

ok we ground out a win yesterday but you expect teams to do that in the champs ,

the only concern i would have the chances have dried up a little for strikers but that happens in a season ,

we are 4th at the moment and i never expected that after the terrible run last season not many managers could turn that around ,

so credit to the management team for getting us up there and hopefully we start to play a bit better and finish teams off a bit better 

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

Yesterday was a classic hard-fought 1-0, the sort that many games are and which you pretty-much instantly forget.  But they are also the bread and butter games.  We aren’t going to be on top form.every match, no one ever is, but ultimately these are the most important games since if you finish on the right side of them you end up towards the top of the table.  You take the positives - a clean sheet, the three points, learn things that need work and move on.

Edit - I’ve seen people saying we were ‘lucky’ or ‘rode our luck’.  We came as close to scoring a second as they came to scoring at all. Gunn had 2 saves to make the entire game. That is not a ‘lucky’ win.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[BroadstairsR 2,171]

With Saints and Forshaw to be unveiled we haven't exhausted our options yet.

Hwang will improve upon yesterday, there can be little doubt about that, so it means that the manager will have decent options up his sleeve.

I think that we have a more than decent squad at Championship level and the manager suits me at the moment, despite having massive misgivings by the ending of last season. He seems popular with the players who are on-board and this is vital. It seems Dean Smith was never that.

[Indy 3,300]

1-0 is probably worse than 0-0 at half time at home, as always the manager will give the keep it tight and don’t concede in the first 15 minutes then the game should open up, unfortunately we kept it tight and never got going again, to be honest we were lucky to win given their couple chances in the second half but you take that given our performance in the first half. 

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

29 minutes ago, Indy said:

1-0 is probably worse than 0-0 at half time at home, as always the manager will give the keep it tight and don’t concede in the first 15 minutes then the game should open up, unfortunately we kept it tight and never got going again, to be honest we were lucky to win given their couple chances in the second half but you take that given our performance in the first half. 

We weren’t lucky to win.  They created little of note - nothing more than we did. 

[nutty nigel 7,537]

Scrapped out 1-0. The performance was more Ron Saunders than Daniel Farke. Maybe not for the purists but the old duffers in the ground appreciated it and stayed with the team throughout.

[Indy 3,300]

10 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

We weren’t lucky to win.  They created little of note - nothing more than we did. 

Yes we were lucky, they had two clear chances to equalise and should have both times their players missed the ball! It should have been 1-1 I’m not saying on the first half performance we didn’t deserved the win we certainly did deserve the win, but we were lucky both chances they wafted on the shot!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Indy

[First Wazzock 902]

15 minutes ago, Indy said:

Yes we were lucky, they had two clear chances to equalise and should have both times their players missed the ball! It should have been 1-1 I’m not saying on the first half performance we didn’t deserved the win we certainly did deserve the win, but we were lucky both chances they wafted on the shot!

Totally agree.

If we had been playing a team with their shooting boots on we could have lost that quite Easily. even though we looked really good to start off with there was no finish, and I have got to say, overall I felt it was a game low on quality. Our defence still worries me, at times it looked like it was going to part like the Red Sea (Exodus 14: 19-31 for our younger members!)  

But as everyone keeps saying, a win is a win

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

52 minutes ago, Indy said:

Yes we were lucky, they had two clear chances to equalise and should have both times their players missed the ball! It should have been 1-1 I’m not saying on the first half performance we didn’t deserved the win we certainly did deserve the win, but we were lucky both chances they wafted on the shot!

If we deserved the win, we weren’t lucky. End of.

[Indy 3,300]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

If we deserved the win, we weren’t lucky. End of.

OK if you say so!

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

4 minutes ago, Indy said:

OK if you say so!

I don’t see how it could possibly be otherwise.  If we were lucky, imo, we didn’t ‘deserve’ to win, it is quite simple. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[Indy 3,300]

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I don’t see how it could possibly be otherwise.  If we were lucky, imo, we didn’t ‘deserve’ to win, it is quite simple. 

Don’t be so daft Branston! There’s a reason lots of us who sat in the river end say we were lucky, two times Stoke had clear chance on the 6 yard box and both times the players failed to hit the ball, we were lucky that they did! We were under the gun and happy when the final whistle went! 
First half superb, second defended doggedly and deserved the win though lucky, that’s my view, but then there’s been lots of times I’m sure you have come away from games and said we were unlucky not to win that game!

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

8 minutes ago, Indy said:

Don’t be so daft Branston! There’s a reason lots of us who sat in the river end say we were lucky, two times Stoke had clear chance on the 6 yard box and both times the players failed to hit the ball, we were lucky that they did! We were under the gun and happy when the final whistle went! 
First half superb, second defended doggedly and deserved the win though lucky, that’s my view, but then there’s been lots of times I’m sure you have come away from games and said we were unlucky not to win that game!

Fine - so surely that means rather than it being a deserved win it was lucky, then?  I really don’t follow your point otherwise.

[shefcanary 2,409]

Or, their players missed the easy shots because they were knackered after all the good pressure our defenders had placed on them earlier. We ground them down, rather like Citeh grind teams down. Not quite the same, but still no luck about it, hard work won out.

[Indy 3,300]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Or, their players missed the easy shots because they were knackered after all the good pressure our defenders had placed on them earlier. We ground them down, rather like Citeh grind teams down. Not quite the same, but still no luck about it, hard work won out.

So you too have never come away from a game and thought or said how unlucky we were not to win! Strange!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Indy