Farke to be sacked

[canarybubbles 1,950]

9 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Yes, he "gets" the culture so much he abandoned everything that got him to where he was including the style of play everyone seems to think defines him (it doesn't) and embarked on the worst period of Premier League form the club has ever seen. Twice.

To appoint him not as head coach which he actually has experience and credentials in, but as a Director of Football is - just - crazy.

It would be liked hiring an electrician to do a plumbers job. They might have some skills which transfer over, they might even have tools to do the job, but I bet you'd have a flooded kitchen by the time you're done.

And Norwich City's kitchen is already under 3ft of water. We shouldn't be asking to be drowned. 

We have no idea what went on behind the scenes during that recruitment drive in summer 2021 or during the ten games of that season prior to Farke's sacking. Perhaps Farke did willingly abandon his style of play, but there is another possible narrative - that he was forced into doing so because a SD outranks a HC and is responsible for general approach, and if he says we're abandoning 'Farkeball', that's what we do. I'm not saying this happened - how would anyone on the outside looking in know this? - but neither do we know that Farke happily went along with this change in strategy. As someone else stated earlier, he could hardly go public with his doubts about the change. His choices would have been resign or suck it up.

 

[ridgeman 135]

10 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Yes, he "gets" the culture so much he abandoned everything that got him to where he was including the style of play everyone seems to think defines him (it doesn't) and embarked on the worst period of Premier League form the club has ever seen. Twice.

To appoint him not as head coach which he actually has experience and credentials in, but as a Director of Football is - just - crazy.

It would be liked hiring an electrician to do a plumbers job. They might have some skills which transfer over, they might even have tools to do the job, but I bet you'd have a flooded kitchen by the time you're done.

And Norwich City's kitchen is already under 3ft of water. We shouldn't be asking to be drowned. 

I think Webber has stated that any change of Head  Coach should be seamless which means the Head Coach does not decide playing styles or tactics that is down to the Sporting Director. Whether Webber consulted Farke on this or just implemented it we do not know. What has been reported is that Farke wanted three or four quality signings but Webber decided on quantity over quality. We will never know what would have happened had we gone with quality.

It took Farke his first season to get his system into his players yet Webber thought with nine new signings plus the two loans made permanent he could change the system and get it up and running in days. After giving Farke a four year contract he was gone after a few games.

I think the Sporting Director is our problem no on else. 

[Monty13 2,256]

2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

We have no idea what went on behind the scenes during that recruitment drive in summer 2021 or during the ten games of that season prior to Farke's sacking. Perhaps Farke did willingly abandon his style of play, but there is another possible narrative - that he was forced into doing so because a SD outranks a HC and is responsible for general approach, and if he says we're abandoning 'Farkeball', that's what we do. I'm not saying this happened - how would anyone on the outside looking in know this? - but neither do we know that Farke happily went along with this change in strategy. As someone else stated earlier, he could hardly go public with his doubts about the change. His choices would have been resign or suck it up.

 

While that’s a fair interpretation, one caveat I’d say is he signed a new long contract on presumably better terms.

If your employer is forcing you to do something you don’t want to do, signing that is a bit self serving - which I don’t blame him for on a personal level, careers can be short in football - but that hardly makes him blameless in terms of the change of approach.

[norfolkngood 1,092]

21 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

That's selective buddy.

He had the respect of most of the fans when we were winning. You only have to look back on here to see what many thought of him in 2018, 2020 and at the time he was sacked the bedsheet had been made and taken to Brentford.

Exactly my point Nutty 

he had my respect then , When he was good at recruitment and could do little wrong 

Since 2020 and 3 years is a awful long time in football or any business 

he has lost Respect due to his Arrogant ways and his terrible Recruitment 

[hogesar 9,776]

4 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

We have no idea what went on behind the scenes during that recruitment drive in summer 2021 or during the ten games of that season prior to Farke's sacking. Perhaps Farke did willingly abandon his style of play, but there is another possible narrative - that he was forced into doing so because a SD outranks a HC and is responsible for general approach, and if he says we're abandoning 'Farkeball', that's what we do. I'm not saying this happened - how would anyone on the outside looking in know this? - but neither do we know that Farke happily went along with this change in strategy. As someone else stated earlier, he could hardly go public with his doubts about the change. His choices would have been resign or suck it up.

 

I think this is a really convenient way of finding a way to make it all Webbers fault and not Farkes. And I love Farke.

Farke held the cards in reality. He was a god to NCFC fans upon that second promotion. Webber wouldn't have recovered if Farke had resigned on the basis that Webber had tried to force a style of play on him.

He wouldn't have even needed to resign. He could have just dropped seeds in the media in pre-season. 

I think both Farke and Webber went down a path having understood that what they tried the first time round was so far from successful at Prem level.

[nutty nigel 7,649]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

Exactly my point Nutty 

he had my respect then , When he was good at recruitment and could do little wrong 

Since 2020 and 3 years is a awful long time in football or any business 

he has lost Respect due to his Arrogant ways and his terrible Recruitment 

I was talking about Farke buddy.

[Matt Morriss 69]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:13, Terminally Yellow said:

The one who came out claiming he was happy with the signings and would have been disappointed with "just" finishing 17th. Remember that? 

Yeah he's really going to come out and say... " Well Paddy, we've got f*** all money to spend and Webber has just got rid of 8 players who I won the league with last year, and replaced them with 2 forwards that got Werder Bremen relegated, a pretty boy who's always injured, some greek kid who looks 12, a french lanky tw** ive never heard of and Billy '1 good game ever' Gilmour. Were f***** mate"

[canarybubbles 1,950]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I think this is a really convenient way of finding a way to make it all Webbers fault and not Farkes. And I love Farke.

Farke held the cards in reality. He was a god to NCFC fans upon that second promotion. Webber wouldn't have recovered if Farke had resigned on the basis that Webber had tried to force a style of play on him.

He wouldn't have even needed to resign. He could have just dropped seeds in the media in pre-season. 

I think both Farke and Webber went down a path having understood that what they tried the first time round was so far from successful at Prem level.

In my own defence, I hope you don't mind if I quote myself.  "Perhaps Farke did willingly abandon his style of play, but there is another possible narrative ..." And "I'm not saying this happened - how would anyone on the outside looking in know this?". I trust these quotes make it clear that I was not stating anything as fact, I was trying to suggest alternative readings of what happened. Your reading, which I have highlighted, is equally possible.

You are quite right, though, in thinking that I do not have a high opinion of Webber, in terms of either his personality or (increasingly) his competence. He awarded a new, improved four-year contract to Farke. Then, ten games later, (ten games!) he sacked him. Does this sound like competence, like a man who knows what he is doing?

And does the sudden concomitant switch from possession football to 'pragmatism' sound like the behaviour of someone who has deep-seated principles about how football should be played? Or does it sound like the behaviour of an opportunist and chancer who will change with the wind, and whose only true principle is to himself?

 

[Matt Morriss 69]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:04, Terminally Yellow said:

Oh let's not do this argument again. Let's get it out the way, then. 

1. Was sacked entirely justifiably, even if the sacking itself was entirely inappropriate. Doesn't make him any less of a club legend for what he did. 

2. Issue has not come because we sacked Farke, it has come about because we didn't replace him very well. 

3. No he shouldn't come back as Director of Football, I don't give a **** that he was DOF at some tiny club in Germany. 

4. Best man manager/coach of individuals ever at NCFC, but absolute **** tactically and in game. 

"1. Was sacked entirely justifiably " - based on losing his first 6 games against the likes of Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal when trying to completely revamp our playing style, after losing 8 players he just won the league with, including Buendia and Skipp, only to be replaced by two Bundesliga 2 forwards who just got Werder Bremen relegated, and Tzolis, Gilmour, PLM, Normann etc. and get them to instantly adapt to English football, let alone the Prem, and go and beat Man City. 

Yep, totally justifiable.

4. Best man manager/coach of individuals ever at NCFC, but absolute **** tactically and in game. - Won the league TWICE. Out tactic'd Pep Guardiola. Beat Newcastle, Leicester, shoulda beat Spurs 2-0, then beat them in the FA Cup. Yeah Farke was definitely absolute **** tactically.

First Champ winning season our entire uplift in fortunes was based on Farkes tactical switch 5 games in to drop Rhodes, push Pukki up front and play Stiepermann in the hole. Everyone forgets this happened, but it was a distinct change that worked wonders. Not to mention the entire overhaul selling Maddison and the Murphys and going full bore on Farkeball. Which then won TWO league titles.

A lot of his Prem subs and pre match setups were on a hiding to nothing. We were never equipped to survive in the Prem. Dennis Srbeny, Amadou, Patrick Roberts, Ondreij Duda, Josip Drmic. Nah, wasnt the players it was Farke, he was **** tactically.

Some people shouldnt be allowed to talk about football. 

[king canary 7,681]

3 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

1. Was sacked entirely justifiably " - based on losing his first 6 games against the likes of Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal when trying to completely revamp our playing style, after losing 8 players he just won the league with, including Buendia and Skipp, only to be replaced by two Bundesliga 2 forwards who just got Werder Bremen relegated, and Tzolis, Gilmour, PLM, Normann etc. and get them to instantly adapt to English football, let alone the Prem, and go and beat Man City. 

Yep, totally justifiable.

That is deeply selective.

He was sacked after taking 5 points from a possible 33, including dreadful performances at home to Watford and Leeds who were real relegation rivals and massive 7-0 smashing at Chelsea, scoring 5 and conceding 25 in the process. Even the games against better teams like Man City we were dreadful- one shot all game! 

So I get disagreeing with the call but it wasn't exactly without justification. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

40 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Yeah he's really going to come out and say... " Well Paddy, we've got f*** all money to spend and Webber has just got rid of 8 players who I won the league with last year, and replaced them with 2 forwards that got Werder Bremen relegated, a pretty boy who's always injured, some greek kid who looks 12, a french lanky tw** ive never heard of and Billy '1 good game ever' Gilmour. Were f***** mate"

You just don't say anything. Simple.

[canarydan23 4,062]

20 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

You just don't say anything. Simple.

Lol.

INTERVIEWER: So Daniel, are you happy with your squad and the summer signing?

FARKE: No comment. I won't answer that question.

Again. Lol.

[king canary 7,681]

25 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

You just don't say anything. Simple.

Yeah this is just silly.

He's not going to 'no comment' a question on 'are you happy with the new signings?' That would be news in and of itself.

[Google Bot 3,340]

"Daniel, we can see your feet under the table.  Once again, are you happy with the summer signings?"

[hogesar 9,776]

16 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah this is just silly.

He's not going to 'no comment' a question on 'are you happy with the new signings?' That would be news in and of itself.

Agreed, although there is still probably a gap between being positive about signings and some of the quotes Farke made particularly about Tzolis. I think he was genuinely happy with them.

[king canary 7,681]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Agreed, although there is still probably a gap between being positive about signings and some of the quotes Farke made particularly about Tzolis. I think he was genuinely happy with them.

I imagine he probably was happy with some or even all of them but obviously what won't be on record on how he felt about those who weren't signed. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

38 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah this is just silly.

He's not going to 'no comment' a question on 'are you happy with the new signings?' That would be news in and of itself.

No, I'm saying you don't go and say I wouldn't be happy with "just" 17th place. ****ing simple. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Terminally Yellow

[Terminally Yellow 2,485]

43 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Lol.

INTERVIEWER: So Daniel, are you happy with your squad and the summer signing?

FARKE: No comment. I won't answer that question.

Again. Lol.

LOL. Childish ****.

[canarydan23 4,062]

33 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

LOL. Childish ****.

No comment.

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

That is deeply selective.

He was sacked after taking 5 points from a possible 33, including dreadful performances at home to Watford and Leeds who were real relegation rivals and massive 7-0 smashing at Chelsea, scoring 5 and conceding 25 in the process. Even the games against better teams like Man City we were dreadful- one shot all game! 

So I get disagreeing with the call but it wasn't exactly without justification. 

I get this, but when we were promoted as champions, we then lost two absolutely key players in Buendia and Skipp - basically with Pukki they were the spine of the team.  And we then kicked off the new season without replacements for either of them.  

 

I can understand the decision to sell Buendia, I know some disagree, but the risk if we'd kept him is that it would have turned into a Cantwell-type situation and we'd have got nothing.   Also we had no choice about Skipp's loan ending, but replacing him should have been our absolutely top priority.

 

Surely having sold Buendia pretty early in the window, the priorities should have been a DM and someone who could provide the service to Pukki.  Neither of those happened. Was Normann intended as the DM, but he didn't arrive until September and I have a feeling he was injured when he arrived.

 

I still think it was crazy to sack Farke just 10 games in, especially with no one else lined up, and to end up signing Dean Smith in a panic.  Meh.

[city4eva 215]

Has he been sacked or is this just more clickbait

[Midlands Yellow 4,113]

Just now, city4eva said:

Has he been sacked or is this just more clickbait

It’s a PinkUn personal attack thread, I’m glad I never get involved in these. 

[king canary 7,681]

22 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

I get this, but when we were promoted as champions, we then lost two absolutely key players in Buendia and Skipp - basically with Pukki they were the spine of the team.  And we then kicked off the new season without replacements for either of them.  

 

I can understand the decision to sell Buendia, I know some disagree, but the risk if we'd kept him is that it would have turned into a Cantwell-type situation and we'd have got nothing.   Also we had no choice about Skipp's loan ending, but replacing him should have been our absolutely top priority.

 

Surely having sold Buendia pretty early in the window, the priorities should have been a DM and someone who could provide the service to Pukki.  Neither of those happened. Was Normann intended as the DM, but he didn't arrive until September and I have a feeling he was injured when he arrived.

 

I still think it was crazy to sack Farke just 10 games in, especially with no one else lined up, and to end up signing Dean Smith in a panic.  Meh.

Don't disagree with any of that.

However when considering 'why did we sack Farke' you have to put yourself in Webber's shoes.

We can look back now and say the recruitment was all wrong. However Webber had spent £60m odd on new players and he clearly believed he'd given Farke a squad with enough to compete at this level. He clearly wasn't going to throw his hands up after 5 points from 11 and say '**** it, clearly I've made a hash of it and this is the best anyone can do.'

 

[Google Bot 3,340]

33 minutes ago, king canary said:

However when considering 'why did we sack Farke' you have to put yourself in Webber's shoes.

Don't think he wanted to sack him to be fair, and was more a case of reacting to the noise and a sense of desperation.

I say that as struggle to find any examples of this being a well thought-out decision. The way he was dismissed was bodged, as was the appointment of a replacement.

Never felt that Webber wanted this at the time, and still don't today.

[king canary 7,681]

49 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Don't think he wanted to sack him to be fair, and was more a case of reacting to the noise and a sense of desperation.

I say that as struggle to find any examples of this being a well thought-out decision. The way he was dismissed was bodged, as was the appointment of a replacement.

Never felt that Webber wanted this at the time, and still don't today.

What do you mean by reacting to the noise?

If you mean the fans then I'd say not a chance. The criticism for Farke was mild and if he hadn't wanted to do it he had a perfect out when we beat Brentford.

My reading is that this season was huge for Webber- he'd basically built his reputation on clever recruitment and this season was going to be his chance to show he could keep a team competitive despite the financial restrictions by being cleverer than the rest. He couldn't afford to just sit back and let us go down (certainly not in the way we were headed with less points than the season before!) without making a change. 

I agree I don't think it was brilliantly thought out but I struggle to buy the idea it was external pressure that made him take this decision, certainly not at the time he took it. 

[Google Bot 3,340]

16 minutes ago, king canary said:

If you mean the fans then I'd say not a chance. The criticism for Farke was mild and if he hadn't wanted to do it he had a perfect out when we beat Brentford.

By the noise, I mean everything... Fans, pundits, the clubs reputation, journos, commenters - we were the ridicule of the league. 

He reacted a short while into the season reacting to the amount of media calling us out for making a cash grab and not trying (if you remember):  https://www.pinkun.com/news/22693232.scandalous-disgrace---city-chief-hits-backs-haters/

Farke was gone inside 2 weeks of that, it was a massive influence on him as you can sense the pain in what outside influence was stating about us.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Google Bot

[lake district canary 4,551]

8 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

He awarded a new, improved four-year contract to Farke. Then, ten games later, (ten games!) he sacked him. Does this sound like competence, like a man who knows what he is doing?

And does the sudden concomitant switch from possession football to 'pragmatism' sound like the behaviour of someone who has deep-seated principles about how football should be played? Or does it sound like the behaviour of an opportunist and chancer who will change with the wind, and whose only true principle is to himself?

Imo Webber just lost the plot under the pressure and the desire to try and impact the situation positively.  I say he lost the plot and I mean it. Succumbing to the pressure to succeed, the noise from the media who kept on repeating the mantra of his record in the PL, despite the circumstances of the lockdown/injuries, the difficulties with Cantwell and Gilmour etc.

To sack Farke after ten games after giving him a four year contract was ludicrous - and the manner of it even more ludicrous, on the back of an encouraging away win.  Then to just come up with Lampard and Smith as potential replacements.....well words failed me then and they still do!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,605]

20 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Imo Webber just lost the plot under the pressure and the desire to try and impact the situation positively.  I say he lost the plot and I mean it. Succumbing to the pressure to succeed, the noise from the media who kept on repeating the mantra of his record in the PL, despite the circumstances of the lockdown/injuries, the difficulties with Cantwell and Gilmour etc.

To sack Farke after ten games after giving him a four year contract was ludicrous - and the manner of it even more ludicrous, on the back of an encouraging away win.  Then to just come up with Lampard and Smith as potential replacements.....well words failed me then and they still do!

Sorry, but he didn't lose the plot, and I say that as someone still arguing Farke's defense right up until his sacking.

The outcomes of those first 10 games were abysmal. Not just bad, but truly abysmal; I can't think of any club in English football that gave a manager more slack in fallow periods than Farke had. He was given a whole season in the Premier League with a dire points tally, a whole season to get us back there from the Championship, and a good chance to show he could do better the second time around. He failed and his dismissal was entirely defensible and there are plenty of threads from the period illustrating that the decision was well-supported by fans at the time it was made.

Edited May 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarybubbles 1,950]

7 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Sorry, but he didn't lose the plot, and I say that as someone still arguing Farke's defense right up until his sacking.

The outcomes of those first 10 games were abysmal. Not just bad, but truly abysmal; I can't think of any club in English football that gave a manager more slack in fallow periods than Farke had. He was given a whole season in the Premier League with a dire points tally, a whole season to get us back there from the Championship, and a good chance to show he could do better the second time around. He failed and his dismissal was entirely defensible and there are plenty of threads from the period illustrating that the decision was well-supported by fans at the time it was made.

IMO, you're missing the point here. The question under discussion is not whether Farke's dismissal was defensible, (personally, I think it was, but in retrospect it was a mistake), but whether handing someone a new four-year contract and then sacking him ten games later, and offering a choice of Lampard or Smith (one of whom wasn't even available at the time of the dismissal) as his replacement, was the act of a competent Sporting Director.

Edited May 16, 2023 by canarybubbles

[BroadstairsR 2,216]

I don't suspect I'm the only one, but I now admonish myself for my indifference to Farke's sacking at the time it happened. 

In fact, there might even have been a slight element of relief.

I now, in hindsight think it was a bad decision all-round ... especially considering what has followed.

Maybe the regular and commonplace defeats/hammerings that the team was beginning to be subject to during that last fateful season up there had clouded my judgement as I had begun to see the man's intransigence towards  some players in a somewhat exaggerated way. There's no smoke without fire, but I saw a bigger blaze than was probably the case.

Others did too, and I remember, not long before the sacking, a fellow supporter telling me that it was in his mind that two youngsters, in varying ways, who were undermining DF and the season's campaign ... Todd Cantwell and Billy Gilmour. This view is probably an over-emphasis of the facts also, but again there was some smoke.

Other undercurrents were piling up though.

Before all this I had long since imagined the Farke regime at Carrow Road lasting for years, with its own distinct identity and dignity, through thick and thin. Another cause for self-admonishment is that it didn't in the end need much 'thin' for this fickle fan to begin to lose faith.

There is a lot of criticism above of the man's style when faced with the challenges of Premier League football. Talk of clumsy changes in philosophy regarding the way the team should have been set up and the like.

There may well be something in all that, but the main reason we failed, apart from the obvious loss of key players, was that it was not on just for the first venture that he was "sent in to battle without a gun" but, imo, both times.

Of course the poor recruitment might partly have been Daniel Farke's fault but events, failures and finances since have told us who the real culprit is.

Even then that culprit can be excused by the fact that the model imposed upon the club by financial restraints was incompatible with Premier League existence in the first place. 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by BroadstairsR