It’s not Dean Smiths fault

[TheGunnShow 6,204]

4 minutes ago, Thumbbass said:

We've parachuted a manager in to save our season but didn't allow him to make any signings in January when it was obvious what we needed, and just as we appeared to get going we were derailed again with COVID and injuries

Since DS came in;

• it became obvious the Cantwell problem was with the player and he was not going to save our season so we were another player down
• We lost Rashica to injury when he was looking like he had found some form
• We lost Idah when he looked like he had found form and at a point where we found a way of playing that looked effective if not pretty
• We lost Normann when he looked genuinely PL class, has come back from injury and looked a poor shadow of himself probably in self preservation mode and now no longer looks like he can be bothered
• We lost Omobamidele when it became obvious he was going to oust Gibson and improve our backline
• We've played matches that we should never have been required to play due to our covid ravaged threadbare squad.

I genuinely don't think DS has much left to try the only job he can do this season is people manage - the squad is poor and he has no choice over the playing staff. 

The only bit of luck he's had is that Pukki has stayed fit otherwise I'm really not sure what we'd do. 

Yep, those six bullet points pretty much sum it up. Only thing I'm not really in line with you here is "not allowing him to make signings in January". We already knew that unless something spectacular happened, we were going to stick with what we had. I'd hope Smith was also fully aware of that before signing the contract.

But one thing is very clear, Farke and Smith appear, for the time being, to be proven right on Cantwell.

[Terminally Yellow 2,557]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sorta agree with 2, but 1 looks miles out. Krasnodar's regular appearances in Europe and a very wealthy backer indicate to me that was a decent side-step with potential to go far further on the European stage. 

If you're wondering about that, I'll raise you Kjetil Knutsen - who a fair few of us wanted before Smith got the job. He took an unfashionable club to Norwegian champions twice, but plenty more took notice when his Bodo side planted Mourinho's Roma side 6-1.

And how many British, German, Spanish sides changed their manager in the same period of time? Krasnodar is a side the average football fan on the street would be hard pressed to point out on a map. Since leaving, how many jobs has he been linked to? Stoke. If that's the best Farke could get it shows his stock in world football was never as high as we thought. 

And that's because he did the most Jekyll and Hyde job at this club as any manager ever. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Terminally Yellow

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

We were out of the relegation zone at one point.

No. We were out of the bottom three

[Thumbbass 326]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, those six bullet points pretty much sum it up. Only thing I'm not really in line with you here is "not allowing him to make signings in January". We already knew that unless something spectacular happened, we were going to stick with what we had. I'd hope Smith was also fully aware of that before signing the contract.

But one thing is very clear, Farke and Smith appear, for the time being, to be proven right on Cantwell.

I think the only bit of business that would have made sense at the time for club and player would have been to return Billy Gilmour and find an actual defensive midfielder loan/free agent. A difficult but not impossible task. BG was injured and had brought nothing to the table, and hasn't since. I do believe we could have done something without financially over-stretching the club.

[TheGunnShow 6,204]

12 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

And how many British, German, Spanish sides changed their manager in the same period of time? Krasnodar is a side the average football fan on the street would be hard pressed to point out on a map. Since leaving, how many jobs has he been linked to? Stoke. If that's the best Farke could get it shows his stock in world football was never as high as we thought. 

And that's because he did the most Jekyll and Hyde job at this club as any manager ever. 

Did Farke really want to stay in England though? If he'd gone back to Germany then it's only reasonable we're not likely to hear too much of his movements or indeed potential movements unless we really start looking for them. The fact he'd been interviewed by Fenerbahce but decided not to take the job indicates reputable clubs were indeed looking at him.

[Tetteys Jig 831]

18 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, those six bullet points pretty much sum it up. Only thing I'm not really in line with you here is "not allowing him to make signings in January". We already knew that unless something spectacular happened, we were going to stick with what we had. I'd hope Smith was also fully aware of that before signing the contract.

But one thing is very clear, Farke and Smith appear, for the time being, to be proven right on Cantwell.

Can only hope Bournemouth are forced to buy Cantwell upon promotion or else I can’t see them taking up the option and we’ll be stuck with him

[TheGunnShow 6,204]

4 minutes ago, Thumbbass said:

I think the only bit of business that would have made sense at the time for club and player would have been to return Billy Gilmour and find an actual defensive midfielder loan/free agent. A difficult but not impossible task. BG was injured and had brought nothing to the table, and hasn't since. I do believe we could have done something without financially over-stretching the club.

Not sure there, especially as it does appear that the deal we agreed to get him in was priced on a sliding scale where if he played all games, the loan fee was zero, but it became more expensive the more games he missed.

This is pure guesswork on my part, but I suspect Chelsea might have had some stiff penalties in for that which we weren't prepared to shell out.... but I repeat, that's a guess.

[BigFish 2,001]

20 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

Can only hope Bournemouth are forced to buy Cantwell upon promotion or else I can’t see them taking up the option and we’ll be stuck with him

I don't think this is right, doesn't his contract expire at the end of the season (although the club has a one year optional extension)?

Edited April 4, 2022 by BigFish

[Tetteys Jig 831]

9 minutes ago, BigFish said:

I don't think this is right, doesn't his contract expire at the end of the season (although the club has a one year optional extension)?

Yeah you can basically ignore the whole “contract up at the end of the season” thing as he’s got a 1 year option which we’d take up. For all his faults, he’s good enough for top end championship and still young so it’d be daft to just let him go for free.

[Indy 3,362]

50 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Absolute **** from a poster getting more and more renowned for posting absolute ****. 

1. He's absolutely improved things. We were out of the relegation zone at one point. Do you think that would have happened under Daniel Farke? There's a reason Farke has been overlooked for any decent managerial position - it's because he's not that good. 

2. This team's fate was sealed long before Dean Smith ever stepped a foot near the manager's office at Carrow Rd. It was sealed by the genius decision to stop playing the style of football we succeeded in winning the championship with and start playing a wide, fast counter attack without the players to capably play that. By the time Smith arrived, no manager would have succeeded. 

😂 thanks for the constructive feedback, obviously opinions are only valid in line with your view! How is still sitting bottom of the league any improvement? I love the fact that so many people are psychic and can predict what we would have done under Farke to this point! Can you give us the Lottery number oh great sage!

Dean Smith was bought in to improve things we look lost devoid of any attacking nouse, lost 7 of the last eight games, to teams we should have been competitive against and even Shakey is questioning his team selection by the remark he said Rowe was ready for a start but Smith chose not to!

Still if you believe we’ve improved then that’s fine in your yellow and Green blinkered view, I and a lot of other haven’t seen it! But then again some people just see what they want to and make their argument based on very little fat, yep it’s the squad that’s ****e!

What was his excuse at Villa? **** squad too?

[Monty13 2,347]

54 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, those six bullet points pretty much sum it up. Only thing I'm not really in line with you here is "not allowing him to make signings in January". We already knew that unless something spectacular happened, we were going to stick with what we had. I'd hope Smith was also fully aware of that before signing the contract.

But one thing is very clear, Farke and Smith appear, for the time being, to be proven right on Cantwell.

I do wonder what has happened with Cantwell, doubt we will ever find out. A player doesn’t just become poor overnight and when there’s any kind of bust up it is rarely entirely one side where the fault lies.

[The Bristol Nest 533]

I agree with Indy with my heart and Thumbass with my head. Both views are opposite and yet valid.

It's hard to be objective when our team is this sh1te.

[TheGunnShow 6,204]

12 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I do wonder what has happened with Cantwell, doubt we will ever find out. A player doesn’t just become poor overnight and when there’s any kind of bust up it is rarely entirely one side where the fault lies.

Agree that we'll probably never find out and also think it's likely there is some fault somewhere else (FWIW, I'd say the agent). Dele Alli looks like another example to be fair, albeit not quite as extreme a case. He's not been remotely the same player for some time now.

This is a total guess, but the faint impressions I got of Cantwell from his media work was that he was a very sensitive sort (there was one with him and Buendia in particular and I really strongly got the impression he was almost desperate for approval). I really don't mean that as a criticism of him at all.

What I do mean is that I can see why a manager like Farke, who is pretty encouraging of youth in particular, would gently ease someone of Cantwell's character in, but eventually lose a little patience if team orders aren't being followed. As much as we say pro footballers earn ridiculous sums of money, they do play in a fairly short-lived, cut-throat and physically arduous career that requires a certain mindset to keep coming back for more and considerable ability to self-start.

I suspect Cantwell's either naturally lacking in that, or something happened somewhere which sadly knocked it out of him.

Edited April 4, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Indy 3,362]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agree that we'll probably never find out and also think it's likely there is some fault somewhere else (FWIW, I'd say the agent). Dele Alli looks like another example to be fair, albeit not quite as extreme a case. He's not been remotely the same player for some time now.

This is a total guess, but the faint impressions I got of Cantwell from his media work was that he was a very sensitive sort (there was one with him and Buendia in particular and I really strongly got the impression he was almost desperate for approval). I really don't mean that as a criticism of him at all.

What I do mean is that I can see why a manager like Farke, who is pretty encouraging of youth in particular, would gently ease someone of Cantwell's character in, but eventually lose a little patience if team orders aren't being followed. As much as we say pro footballers earn ridiculous sums of money, they do play in a fairly short-lived, cut-throat and physically arduous career that requires a certain mindset to keep coming back for more and considerable ability to self-start.

I suspect Cantwell's either naturally lacking in that, or something happened somewhere which sadly knocked it out of him.

What I can’t get my head round is that it must run deeper than the coaches! Cantwell was courted by Smith as a replacement for Grealish, so certainly must have known Smith wanted him, yet even under Smith things never improved. Such a shame as he really could have been that player to win us a few games this season, he has that ability as shown in the previous Premiership season. Great player in there somewhere, hope it comes out in him again, far too good a talent to fade into lower leagues.

[TheGunnShow 6,204]

3 minutes ago, Indy said:

What I can’t get my head round is that it must run deeper than the coaches! Cantwell was courted by Smith as a replacement for Grealish, so certainly must have known Smith wanted him, yet even under Smith things never improved. Such a shame as he really could have been that player to win us a few games this season, he has that ability as shown in the previous Premiership season. Great player in there somewhere, hope it comes out in him again, far too good a talent to fade into lower leagues.

That's precisely why natural sensitivity / temperament is my inclination.

There might even be a similar argument for Lungi - I suspect the coaches think his naturally phlegmatic style translates as "might not quite be up for a relegation battle" when really it's just how he is.

Agree that there is a player in Cantwell without a shadow of a doubt in terms of technique and creativity. I would also agree that he's the sort of mercurial sort who needs a team building around him. The problem is, we haven't got the rest of the team in place for that to thrive.

[Monty13 2,347]

16 minutes ago, Indy said:

What I can’t get my head round is that it must run deeper than the coaches! Cantwell was courted by Smith as a replacement for Grealish, so certainly must have known Smith wanted him, yet even under Smith things never improved. Such a shame as he really could have been that player to win us a few games this season, he has that ability as shown in the previous Premiership season. Great player in there somewhere, hope it comes out in him again, far too good a talent to fade into lower leagues.

I mean supporters often put people in football on a pedestal when they talk about them being “professional” like they are somehow different in character to other professional people.

I’ve took over some demoralised teams and while you do your best I’ve met a few people who you just couldn’t turn around because while they respond to you as a new manager they have completely lost trust with the company, your bosses and/or other people they work with.

I have no idea if that’s pertinent to Cantwell’s situation but if it wasn’t just an issue with him and Farke it may be Dean tried and ultimately he just doesn’t want to be here anymore.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Monty13

[Nexus_Canary 1,063]

Smith is out of his depth he proved this at Villa.

Worst panic signing in the history of our club. Get him out the door as soon as we are down so we can get in a replacement and get the ball rolling again.

[Capt. Pants 4,355]

8 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Smith is out of his depth he proved this at Villa.

Worst panic signing in the history of our club. Get him out the door as soon as we are down so we can get in a replacement and get the ball rolling again.

Lost 5 in a row before we appointed him and only survived relegation at Villa due to a failure of goal-line technology.

Farke was a better coach and he wasn't good enough.

I can understand people wanting to get shot of him. 

Lose at home to Burnley and I can see things turning very sour very quickly.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,327]

21 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Smith is out of his depth he proved this at Villa.

Worst panic signing in the history of our club. Get him out the door as soon as we are down so we can get in a replacement and get the ball rolling again.

Do you honestly think we'll get better than Smith and Shakespeare for the Championship? I'd really fear for us if Webber and co were to choose another manager.

I think the best option for us right now (and for next season) is to stick with Smith. 

[Nexus_Canary 1,063]

He is not the man for the job. Far rather see a gamble than let him mess up the infrastructure of the club with his inept approach.
I realise options are slim but playing the Krankies and Norman through the middle last week was unacceptable. 

[Indy 3,362]

4 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

He is not the man for the job. Far rather see a gamble than let him mess up the infrastructure of the club with his inept approach.
I realise options are slim but playing the Krankies and Norman through the middle last week was unacceptable. 

Careful Nexus, Terminal will be throwing insults at you for thinking that way! Now toe the official line! We can’t get better than Smith and we’re lucky to have him, he’s fantastic but the players are all ****e!

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 413]

On 04/04/2022 at 10:04, Terminally Yellow said:

Oh my god you want to get rid of an established manager and find some random European unknown? **** me 

This is why this forum is so devoid from reality - you have absolutely no clue, do you?

Established maybe, but not a good manager. I'm guessing you're the kind of saddo who would welcome an ex Norwich player as a manager just for the connection. You sir are the one devoid of any clue. Take a long hard look at yourself and wonder where you went wrong in your tiny little mind.

[OnDaBall 138]

To quote Webber, "We are delighted to have appointed Dean [Smith] as our new head coach. I have admired his work for some time and he has been a long-term target"

Can't see him going somehow

[Nexus_Canary 1,063]

26 minutes ago, OnDaBall said:

To quote Webber, "We are delighted to have appointed Dean [Smith] as our new head coach. I have admired his work for some time and he has been a long-term target"

Can't see him going somehow

"Lamps didnt want to come and Knuttsun won't answer the bas*ard phone. Leaving us with.... the ex Villa boss, Lambo. *Whisper in the back* oh... he left... ah... *checks google* Dean Smith.. yeh him... He's been a long term target for us.... since we put Farke in to do a long term contract and were not really looking to replace before the plebs started moaning...... and we are delighted to have Delia... i mean Dean Smith as manager... until he f*cks up. By which time i will hopeful be halfway up Everest spending the clubs slush fund on wicked Hindu Kush"

Thats hardly going to be your presser is it...........

[Duncan Edwards 2,278]

Smith is just a stop-gap until we can appoint the prodigal son, Russell Martin. It's his - and our - destiny. Hopefully with Seb Bassong alongside him..

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

On 04/04/2022 at 11:00, Tetteys Jig said:

Yeah you can basically ignore the whole “contract up at the end of the season” thing as he’s got a 1 year option which we’d take up. For all his faults, he’s good enough for top end championship and still young so it’d be daft to just let him go for free.

He is currently at a top end championship club and not really looking like anything more than a squad player. I’d obviously agree we trigger the extension just to see if we can get some pennies for him 

[hogesar 9,878]

There is a reality which is getting in a better duo than Smith & Shakespeare in the Championship would be nigh on impossible unless we go for an absolute gamble - stacked against us so we'd have to be desperate to take that gamble. Doesn't make sense to change for me.

[Duncan Edwards 2,278]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

There is a reality which is getting in a better duo than Smith & Shakespeare in the Championship would be nigh on impossible unless we go for an absolute gamble - stacked against us so we'd have to be desperate to take that gamble. Doesn't make sense to change for me.

Martin and Bassong. Fact. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Duncan Edwards

[Indy 3,362]

Again it’s all about opinions! I disagree that there’s not better available as I can’t see Smith has a very good championship record! One dodgy promotion! 
The real facts are as above there’s not going to be any change, no other club will want Smith, we can’t really afford to sack another manager so quick, so we’ll see just how good he is next year, and I certainly won’t buy this Not His Squad crap next season. It’s his squad and best he make the best out of them!

[ged in the onion bag 878]

Smith’s first job was to stop the ball hitting the back of our net so often.   In that regard he succeeded.

Beyond that it’s to get the ball in the opponents net and he’s failed there but to be fair, that task was always unrealistic with this squad.   

Worrying however, is that he doesn’t seem to be trying other options whether personnel or tactics.    At Brighton, thought his response to the result was kind of …a blasé, is what it is!!!!   Wish he would go on the front foot, kick all the deadwood out now, start preparing for next season.   At this rate we’ll be losing the next 8 anyway!    

The identity we had went well before he arrived.    We just didn’t have the quality to play that style at this level.   Farke should have been parking buses against the top 6 instead of playing out from the back and being picked off.