The thing I can't understand

[king canary 7,606]

Why, for two seasons in a row at this level, has the mentality of the players just been so poor?

Lack of quality I can take to an extent- we know the budgets, we know we're going to struggle to bring in players of pure Premier League ability but you see teams who are similar or worse 'on paper' but as a team they make up for a lack of ability with hard work, structure, tenacity but these qualities seem to be completely lacking in Norwich City players. 

We've cycled through players and managers yet it remains the same. Is there something in the mentality of the club? Is it the famed 'little old Norwich' mindset seeping permeating all areas of the club? I just don't get it. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,718]

They know they are down. They dont care anymore and quite a few know they will be off  and leaving this club come the end of the season  regardless.

[king canary 7,606]

Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

They know they are down. They dont care anymore and quite a few know they will be off  and leaving this club come the end of the season  regardless.

I'm not talking about just tonight though. This mentality was there v Watford and Leeds under Farke before we'd even played a quarter of the season. It was there through most of the season before in the Premier League too. It isn't about knowing we're down it is about do we even believe we deserve to be up?

[WD40 720]

I agree little old Norwich is part of it, Farke talking every game down early on in both campaigns. The players know they aren’t good enough and it shows. 

[MORDENCANARY 71]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

Why, for two seasons in a row at this level, has the mentality of the players just been so poor?

Lack of quality I can take to an extent- we know the budgets, we know we're going to struggle to bring in players of pure Premier League ability but you see teams who are similar or worse 'on paper' but as a team they make up for a lack of ability with hard work, structure, tenacity but these qualities seem to be completely lacking in Norwich City players. 

We've cycled through players and managers yet it remains the same. Is there something in the mentality of the club? Is it the famed 'little old Norwich' mindset seeping permeating all areas of the club? I just don't get it. 

Sometimes it's just about competing and 'getting stuck in' ,if you haven't got the quality to stay with the opposition it's about making life as difficult as possible for the opposition.  Most of the time it's like taking candy from a baby for Norwich's opponents. 

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not talking about just tonight though. This mentality was there v Watford and Leeds under Farke before we'd even played a quarter of the season. It was there through most of the season before in the Premier League too. It isn't about knowing we're down it is about do we even believe we deserve to be up?

I know what you mean; it's almost like we've given up before we've even started.

OTBC

[Robornio 107]

Accountability. None of them care and clearly the management don’t have much discipline in the ranks. The fear of being dropped isn’t there and, quite literally, the club from top to bottom is run more like country club than a ruthlessly competitive top-tier sports team. We do the same things over and over again, and yet expect a different outcome in the Premier League. Cue Einstein. The board have to be changed for this level. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Why did they have to look at it six times? Stitched on

[Herman 9,765]

13 minutes ago, MORDENCANARY said:

Sometimes it's just about competing and 'getting stuck in' ,if you haven't got the quality to stay with the opposition it's about making life as difficult as possible for the opposition.  Most of the time it's like taking candy from a baby for Norwich's opponents. 

If the opposition had to earn their points off us I'd be a little bit more happier. I'm not happy if we lose but I want us to at least put up a bit of a fight. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

I said earlier in the season that it seemed like as soon as we saw the opening two games were Liverpool and Man City, everyone, and that's players and fans, just thought 'oh Christ, here we go again'. As soon as we took two hidings, the mental scars from last time just burst open.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Risking the wrath I am going to say that Chelsea were thinking past us in the 2nd half. And they allowed us to compete. To be fair, we did and Rashica showed what a bit of pace and skill can do. Webber, take note.

Deano, stop messing about. You must get some backbone, accept we are going down and play those who are going to be around, injuries permitting. Forget the three loanees. Get Todd back and invoke the option. Keep Krul, Aarons, AO, Byram, Dimi (Williams wages too high), Hanley, Rashica, Rupp, Rowe, Sorenson, PLM, Teemu, Idah, possibly Sargent. Get Mumba, MacCallum, Sinani and Todd back and get two good signings.

[All the Germans 1,075]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Risking the wrath I am going to say that Chelsea were thinking past us in the 2nd half. And they allowed us to compete. To be fair, we did and Rashica showed what a bit of pace and skill can do. Webber, take note.

Deano, stop messing about. You must get some backbone, accept we are going down and play those who are going to be around, injuries permitting. Forget the three loanees. Get Todd back and invoke the option. Keep Krul, Aarons, AO, Byram, Dimi (Williams wages too high), Hanley, Rashica, Rupp, Rowe, Sorenson, PLM, Teemu, Idah, possibly Sargent. Get Mumba, MacCallum, Sinani and Todd back and get two good signings.

I hope to god that those two good signings are a DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER and a winger with some pace.  Sorry about the caps but we've all said it so many times and it is so obvious but I can't understand why it isn't absolute, priority number one.

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

I honestly think its a consequence of us only signing nice, articulate, good-guys who have 'the right character'.

We lack bullish, aggressive  LEADERS who get angry and break things when the chips are down.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,718]

1 minute ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

I honestly think its a consequence of us only signing nice, articulate, good-guys who have 'the right character'.

We lack bullish, aggressive  LEADERS who get angry and break things when the chips are down.

We have one and his name is Williams but given he wont be here next season it's all rather pointless

[Mullet 293]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Why, for two seasons in a row at this level, has the mentality of the players just been so poor?

Lack of quality I can take to an extent- we know the budgets, we know we're going to struggle to bring in players of pure Premier League ability but you see teams who are similar or worse 'on paper' but as a team they make up for a lack of ability with hard work, structure, tenacity but these qualities seem to be completely lacking in Norwich City players. 

We've cycled through players and managers yet it remains the same. Is there something in the mentality of the club? Is it the famed 'little old Norwich' mindset seeping permeating all areas of the club? I just don't get it. 

They probably look around in training and know individually and collectively they are not good enough. That said its a team game and pure hard work and determination should make up for the lack of quality to get enough points. Maybe there are too many in the camp not willing to put 100% in. I think a lot of footballers are a bit arrogant these days, they can put in 6/10 performances and still get a massive salary. 

[Midlands Yellow 3,984]

The only times we’ve looked like we could really have a go we bottled it. Newcastle away (when they went down to 10 men) we waited for it to happen instead of making it happen. Palace at home off the back of good results and that early goal only hindered us. Shut up shop after half an hour and got away with a lucky draw. The mental strength is non existent. 

[hogesar 9,673]

To be fair, goals change games and conceding an awful set piece because an individual (Sargent, in this case) gets the wrong side of Chalobah and its not surprising with our recent form that heads drop. Thats hardly unique to us - look at Leeds and Watford tonight.

[yellowrider120 762]

40 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

We have one and his name is Williams but given he wont be here next season it's all rather pointless

Spot on! BW was immense again for us tonight. Total blistering commitment and regularly puts others to shame. IMO he's naiiled on (or should be) for POTS. 

[hogesar 9,673]

12 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Spot on! BW was immense again for us tonight. Total blistering commitment and regularly puts others to shame. IMO he's naiiled on (or should be) for POTS. 

I hadn't really thought about POTS (likely for obvious reasons) but I think you're right.

[AJ 1,221]

The lack of fight over 90 minutes is the most frustrating thing for me. Go down if we're not good enough but at least go down swinging. We gave it a go in the second half which is the least we can ask. The first half was up there with one of the worst I've seen at Carrow Road

[glory.win or die. 270]

It comes with our model.

We buy young unproven players or players who have failed elsewhere but had potential earlier in their careers.

We do not have players who know success at that level. We are full of lovers.

It's why we should try signing ppl like cahil in the summer. Experienced players..winners.

[Greavsy 2,415]

54 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

IMO he's naiiled on (or should be) for POTS. 

Not Billy? 

[Helsinki canary 242]

14 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Not Billy? 

Or the other wee krankie?

[Greavsy 2,415]

3 minutes ago, Helsinki canary said:

Or the other wee krankie?

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

10 hours ago, king canary said:

Why, for two seasons in a row at this level, has the mentality of the players just been so poor?

Lack of quality I can take to an extent- we know the budgets, we know we're going to struggle to bring in players of pure Premier League ability but you see teams who are similar or worse 'on paper' but as a team they make up for a lack of ability with hard work, structure, tenacity but these qualities seem to be completely lacking in Norwich City players. 

We've cycled through players and managers yet it remains the same. Is there something in the mentality of the club? Is it the famed 'little old Norwich' mindset seeping permeating all areas of the club? I just don't get it. 

Agree with much of that but our belief definitely grew with our second half performance. The early goal sapped the enthusiasm out of both players and fans. I think confidence is obviously so low because we lose most weeks.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,718]

8 hours ago, glory.win or die. said:

It comes with our model.

We buy young unproven players or players who have failed elsewhere but had potential earlier in their careers.

We do not have players who know success at that level. We are full of lovers.

It's why we should try signing ppl like cahil in the summer. Experienced players..winners.

Fully understand and fully agree where you are coming and its something I have often said myself  but problem is that players such as him are on wages way outside of our pay grade

[Jimmy Raggatip 60]

11 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I said earlier in the season that it seemed like as soon as we saw the opening two games were Liverpool and Man City, everyone, and that's players and fans, just thought 'oh Christ, here we go again'. As soon as we took two hidings, the mental scars from last time just burst open.

probably a good point. Next time we're up we need to pay the fixture computer off

[king canary 7,606]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

To be fair, goals change games and conceding an awful set piece because an individual (Sargent, in this case) gets the wrong side of Chalobah and its not surprising with our recent form that heads drop. Thats hardly unique to us - look at Leeds and Watford tonight.

 

2 hours ago, (Hoola)Han Solo said:

Agree with much of that but our belief definitely grew with our second half performance. The early goal sapped the enthusiasm out of both players and fans. I think confidence is obviously so low because we lose most weeks.

I feel you're both slightly missing the point I'm making.

I'm not just talking about tonight, I'm talking about our entire last 60 odd games in the Premier League. 

There is just something in the mentality of the club that seems so soft. It isn't just getting relegated, its the fact we're likely to go down two seasons in a row with barely a whimper. I wonder when the last time a team looked at us on the fixture list and thought 'that'll be a tough one for us.' 

I look at our continued inability to defend set pieces as an example. Yes we can look at the individual errors at different points but we've been making these same errors for two years. Defending corners isn't rocket science whether its zonal or not. We were told for a long time it was because we had a short team but last night we had 3 central defenders and 6 foot + striker, along with some reasonably tall midfielders and it is all still the same ****. That isn't a quality issue its an attitude issue.

There seems to be a lack of leadership, a lack of accountability and fundamentally a lack of pride in the culture of the club. Why bother properly defending a corner if you know we're likely going down and you know that we're OK with that.

I know people get bored of the comparisons to other clubs but Brentford came out and played fearless football for at least half a season. Sheffield United knew that they weren't a Premier League quality squad on paper but they took it to teams and won games on sheer force of will. We haven't done that at this level since Lambert and I'm not sure it is a simple new manager/new players issue.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

11 hours ago, yellowrider120 said:

Spot on! BW was immense again for us tonight. Total blistering commitment and regularly puts others to shame. IMO he's naiiled on (or should be) for POTS. 

What he lacks in balance and awareness at times, he certainly makes up for in commitment. And he might be a bit of a Forrest Gump when attacking but at least he gives it his all.

Definitely the main man for POTS at the moment.

[hogesar 9,673]

31 minutes ago, king canary said:

 

I feel you're both slightly missing the point I'm making.

I'm not just talking about tonight, I'm talking about our entire last 60 odd games in the Premier League. 

There is just something in the mentality of the club that seems so soft. It isn't just getting relegated, its the fact we're likely to go down two seasons in a row with barely a whimper. I wonder when the last time a team looked at us on the fixture list and thought 'that'll be a tough one for us.' 

I look at our continued inability to defend set pieces as an example. Yes we can look at the individual errors at different points but we've been making these same errors for two years. Defending corners isn't rocket science whether its zonal or not. We were told for a long time it was because we had a short team but last night we had 3 central defenders and 6 foot + striker, along with some reasonably tall midfielders and it is all still the same ****. That isn't a quality issue its an attitude issue.

There seems to be a lack of leadership, a lack of accountability and fundamentally a lack of pride in the culture of the club. Why bother properly defending a corner if you know we're likely going down and you know that we're OK with that.

I know people get bored of the comparisons to other clubs but Brentford came out and played fearless football for at least half a season. Sheffield United knew that they weren't a Premier League quality squad on paper but they took it to teams and won games on sheer force of will. We haven't done that at this level since Lambert and I'm not sure it is a simple new manager/new players issue.

 

I think that's probably a bit too deep, in my opinion.

Farke's first Premier League Season had far less investment than even Sheffield United. Fundamentally we played a season with a style of football that we weren't good enough to execute. Sheffield played a style that worked and had a lot of physicality. Second season they went down with a 'whimper'.

Generally speaking under Smith we've not been easy to play against.