No McLean = win ...coincidence??

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Sorensen is a great player to have in the squad and has been more than acceptable wher ever he has been asked to play in the team. He's been unfortunate not to have had more opportunities at playing the role he does best - which is where he played today.  Give him a run in the side in his favourite position and I think he will prove himself there.  I don't get the "over hyped because he's not been playing" - I think he is actually under rated because he doesn't go charging around - he is a measured and steady footballer and sometimes a team needs a player like that....someone in the middle who can be cool under pressure.

Brentford have a very similar player (can't remember his name) who has done very well this season. I like Mclean (when he is at his best) but Sorensen deserves a run in the team imo.

Think you mean Vitaly Janelt.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,764]

2 minutes ago, Ian said:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

But just to clarify...you dont think he's good enough to be in our team

[Commonsense 624]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

No midfield lapses of concentration, giving balls away cheaply, losing runners, ducking out of challenges and generally being over run by the opposition midfield

Finally

Well done. Let’s start negative thread to celebrate a great win!! 

[The Real Buh 3,439]

13 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I nearly choke on the words but I....agree.....with....Buh.

It’s been a weird day

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,764]

1 minute ago, Commonsense said:

Well done. Let’s start negative thread to celebrate a great win!! 

Only if you choose to look at it as a negative

I'd take it as a positive that we've found a better combination of midfielders at the club than we'd tried before

[Ian 1,129]

2 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

But just to clarify...you dont think he's good enough to be in our team

I woudn't always have him as first choice as already stated.

There's a big difference between not preferring him as first choice midfielder, and suggesting him not being in the squad is the main reason for a victory however. I know you probably can't cope with that sort of nuance though.

We played a different system today, with a front four who played well. There's many different explanations for a good performance today, but the fact you would rather have a dig at McLean than focus on the positives says a lot, don't you think?

[lincsy88 95]

47 minutes ago, fredherring said:

Lees melou was tolerable and sorenson anonymous. 

We were lucky Everton were bad, and we lined up to bypass the midfield two. 

The cruelty against McLean on this forum is so effing pig ignorant, blind, and ignoring of his record, that it just makes you look utterly stupid. 

Whatever game were you watching? McLean is awful at this level. 

[lake district canary 4,533]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Vitaly Janelt.

That's the guy, was getting rave reviews early in the season - and to me he looks very similar in style to Sorensen.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,764]

5 minutes ago, Ian said:

I woudn't always have him as first choice as already stated.

There's a big difference between not preferring him as first choice midfielder, and suggesting him not being in the squad is the main reason for a victory however. I know you probably can't cope with that sort of nuance though.

We played a different system today, with a front four who played well. There's many different explanations for a good performance today, but the fact you would rather have a dig at McLean than focus on the positives says a lot, don't you think?

Not in the team or not in the squad...either way he's not in the team , whichever way you want to 'nuance' it

[Ian 1,129]

4 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Not in the team or not in the squad...either way he's not in the team , whichever way you want to 'nuance' it

I see. Okay, so in your opinion, was McLean not being in the squad today the main reason for our win?

[Worthy Nigelton 1,050]

41 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I am inclined to agree, but (and it's a big but) if PLM carries on how he played today then you can't drop him. Sorenson was good, solid and dependable today, a very Skipp-esque performance, but PLM was even better. I think what is starting to become apparent is that McLean is a 4th choice midfielder and in the Premier League, that sounds about right.

Fifth for me behind Rupp as well. Which I think is fine. If you go into the PL with McLean as your fifth choice CM then that's not a problem... the problem has been he's been first choice, which is criminal for a wannabe Premier League team.

[The Bristol Nest 515]

Great win today. Massive whinge on here about a player that wasn't there. Ffs

[Petriix 2,838]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yeah I was and I disagree. I think because we won its being overhyped.

I suppose to try and be fair look at our last home win vs Southampton - Kenny won more in the air than Sorensen did today, Kennys passing success was considerably higher,  Kenny created more...in fact the only thing Sorensen done better was tackle more times. 

Sorensen is one of those players who people have bigged up so much from not playing I think they see things that don't exist. He was good today, decent, but no better really than what McLean has offered this season. 

Like I say, its why he's never been able to displace him at this level or the level below under two managers and coaches who watch him day in day out.

He should get a chance from today but as i said, I dont expect it to last long 

I couldn't disagree more with your analysis. You've picked up on a few statistics, but I don't believe they actually keep stats for 'standing in the right place' or 'cutting off the passing angle' but these are both significant facets of the game where Sorensen is vastly superior to Kenny.

It's all about positional discipline and reading the game. Yes, Lungi is more limited on the ball, and certainly in an attacking sense. But, when you've got 4 attacking players in front of you, the more important role is to create a secure anchor to liberate those players to do the attacking.

We had a far better balance today. For the first time I can recall this season we had a solid double pivot. It's no coincidence that Idah had the freedom to put in a man of the match performance. And, likewise, the defence looked reasonably solid. Kenny simply doesn't give you that solidity.

[hogesar 9,676]

1 minute ago, Petriix said:

I couldn't disagree more with your analysis. You've picked up on a few statistics, but I don't believe they actually keep stats for 'standing in the right place' or 'cutting off the passing angle' but these are both significant facets of the game where Sorensen is vastly superior to Kenny.

It's all about positional discipline and reading the game. Yes, Lungi is more limited on the ball, and certainly in an attacking sense. But, when you've got 4 attacking players in front of you, the more important role is to create a secure anchor to liberate those players to do the attacking.

We had a far better balance today. For the first time I can recall this season we had a solid double pivot. It's no coincidence that Idah had the freedom to put in a man of the match performance. And, likewise, the defence looked reasonably solid. Kenny simply doesn't give you that solidity.

I agree with you. If we are going to play 4 attacking players then we don't need a Kenny in midfield. If we are playing a midfield three then McLeans ability (albeit average at this level) of being able to defend a bit, compete in the air and play more box to box become relevant.

Had Kenny not been self isolating do we think he would have paired with PLM?

[kirku 1,334]

2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

No midfield lapses of concentration, giving balls away cheaply, losing runners, ducking out of challenges and generally being over run by the opposition midfield

Finally

If you want a midfield scapegoat, you've got the wrong Scotsman

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

When we have possession McLean can sometimes be great, he can link the play well, he never stops running so always offers options and can get up in support but the problem is when we don't have the ball, it's like he's not even there, he takes up positions but doesn't challenge and often lets people just run past him similar to Gilmour, I often see him just lightly jogging back as well when we're being countered which really winds me up. You can do that when you're a midfielder who offers a threat going forwards but he doesn't at this level. 

 

I noticed the same thing all the way back in his Aberdeen days when I watched him play a couple of times, I thought he looked tidy but didn't really have much defensive workrate and seemed to think defending was just a case of standing in the right area, kind of flattering to deceive. He hasn't improved in that aspect since he's been here imo and we just can't afford to carry players like that in the team who won't make a difference without the ball. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Christoph Stiepermann

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, kirku said:

If you want a midfield scapegoat, you've got the wrong Scotsman

Ah, the no true Scotsman fallacy finding its way into NCFC fan analysis. 😄 

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Had Kenny not been self isolating do we think he would have paired with PLM?

I do. And I think we'd have lost.

Although Whoscored predicted a McLean Sorenson pairing in a 4-2-3-1. 

I think we'd have lost with that too.

[Petriix 2,838]

Just now, hogesar said:

I agree with you. If we are going to play 4 attacking players then we don't need a Kenny in midfield. If we are playing a midfield three then McLeans ability (albeit average at this level) of being able to defend a bit, compete in the air and play more box to box become relevant.

Had Kenny not been self isolating do we think he would have paired with PLM?

I would be incredibly disappointed if we reverted to a midfield 3. The merits of playing a double pivot with a free, attacking number 10 were so clearly displayed today. We need that defensive stability.

I'm sure Kenny would have been picked if available, but that shouldn't mean he automatically gets the place back. Godfrey, Lewis and Aarons only got their chances when the incumbent players were injured.

[Samwam27 527]

Mclean has plenty of energy, which is about the biggest compliment I can give him, but he's not a defensive midfielder, nor a great shooter, doesn't create assists, nor gets many if any goals. I'm not sure what his greatest attributes are

To be fair to Sorensen he hasn't yet been given any chance to grow into his preferred role, with today being best evidence of him doing what he does best. Mclean has been played whether he's average or awful (& lets face it he is rarely great)

Also Sorensen is our best and only CDM (& has played well even in alien positions for us) and imo deserves to be given a chance to show he can grow into this role. He will only get better with every game. Our midfield gets over-run nearly every game with box to box midfielders, so hope today serves as a passing of the guard onto Sorensen, and Mclean becomes backup

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

8 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

Mclean has plenty of energy, which is about the biggest compliment I can give him, but he's not a defensive midfielder, nor a great shooter, doesn't create assists, nor gets many if any goals. I'm not sure what his greatest attributes are

To be fair to Sorensen he hasn't yet been given any chance to grow into his preferred role, with today being best evidence of him doing what he does best. Mclean has been played whether he's average or awful (& lets face it he is rarely great)

Also Sorensen is our best and only CDM (& has played well even in alien positions for us) and imo deserves to be given a chance to show he can grow into this role. He will only get better with every game. Our midfield gets over-run nearly every game with box to box midfielders, so hope today serves as a passing of the guard onto Sorensen, and Mclean becomes backup

Totally agree with the bit in bold. Sörensen's performances at left-back last season were superb to the point he'd seen off a career left-back in Xavi Quintilla and it needed a Giannoulis coming in to get him out - and even then, Giannoulis needed a few weeks to get used to it and I distinctly remember a few thinking Sörensen should stay back there.

Not to mention he had Ronaldo in his pocket for most of the Utd game, and that was playing at centre-half. There's obviously a very alert, intelligent player in there who's good at picking up where he thinks the ball's going to go, he likes a tackle, and he's not averse to stepping out with the ball to boot.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Sorenson also made more tackles in 90 minutes and Today than any other midfielder has managed in 90 mins all season 

[Yobocop 1,099]

Yes and it probably would’ve been more comfortable however Sorensen did ok today 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

You could argue that McLean not playing was the cause, but just as well argue that it was our more attacking stance that took pressure off the midfield and gave them space to react and defend properly. Too many times this season we’ve been way too passive and offered nothing up front, with Idah playing today the ball was sticking up front, we were able to push players forwards and when we did lose possession we had far more space to organise and defend. More of an offensive balance today and it paid off.

[Nora's Ghost 157]

McLean needs to be shipped out to East Fife before the window shuts and we get stuck with him.

[City Stand Ultra 41]

18 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah I was and I disagree. I think because we won its being overhyped.

I suppose to try and be fair look at our last home win vs Southampton - Kenny won more in the air than Sorensen did today, Kennys passing success was considerably higher,  Kenny created more...in fact the only thing Sorensen done better was tackle more times. 

Sorensen is one of those players who people have bigged up so much from not playing I think they see things that don't exist. He was good today, decent, but no better really than what McLean has offered this season. 

Like I say, its why he's never been able to displace him at this level or the level below under two managers and coaches who watch him day in day out.

He should get a chance from today but as i said, I dont expect it to last long 

Stats comparisons are a little like the definition of a cynic - "a cynic knows the price of everything but the value of nothing"

Sorensen brings a composure, awareness and reading of the game that is significantly better than McLean and facilitates the rest of the team to function better.  Kenny has been a decent servant to the club but has been exposed for a long time as not quite at Prem level.  Sorensen may or may not have longevity at this level but he has demonstrated that he deserves a chance to stake that claim over a longer period.  

[Jersey Canary 143]

20 hours ago, hogesar said:

Sorensen didnt do anything McLean hasn't done for us - he is a player people are desperate to be better than he is. PLM was much, much better than Sorensen.

But of course, our midfield hasn't been good enough all season and if we are going to go with two in there moving forwards PLM and Normann might be the best shout. 

Sorensen should get a chance to have a run in the team but I'm sure we will find hes very much on or just below McLean in level - its why Farke and Smith both play him.

Kenny can’t tackle and Kenny can’t pass in an attacking sense….just to name two attributes.

[hogesar 9,676]

6 minutes ago, Jersey Canary said:

Kenny can’t tackle and Kenny can’t pass in an attacking sense….just to name two attributes.

Kenny makes 80% more forward passes than Sorensen, wrong one to pick up!

[Jersey Canary 143]

19 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah I was and I disagree. I think because we won its being overhyped.

I suppose to try and be fair look at our last home win vs Southampton - Kenny won more in the air than Sorensen did today, Kennys passing success was considerably higher,  Kenny created more...in fact the only thing Sorensen done better was tackle more times. 

Sorensen is one of those players who people have bigged up so much from not playing I think they see things that don't exist. He was good today, decent, but no better really than what McLean has offered this season. 

Like I say, its why he's never been able to displace him at this level or the level below under two managers and coaches who watch him day in day out.

He should get a chance from today but as i said, I dont expect it to last long 

How many assists and goals had Kenny had since he joined? Not many. Kenny is a poor man’s Ray ‘the crab’ Wilkins. Pass completion is irrelevant if you’re just doing 5-10 yard passes. What would be a better measure would be meaningful passes, tackles lost that lead to goals, distance covered is irrelevant if you’re chasing the result of your poor tackle or pass. Plus the normal stats. If we looked at the two players on paper you’d perhaps have a different opinion.
 

I feel Sorensen reads the game better, he has more of a footballing brain, he can see a forward pass and is strong in the challenge. He’s a far more accomplished player. His only downfall is he’s not the quickest but if you can read the game well then you can move your position to compensate. 

[Jersey Canary 143]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Kenny makes 80% more forward passes than Sorensen, wrong one to pick up!

Even in the game yesterday Sorensen passed the ball out of defence to I think it was Pukki to put Idah in. Kenny doesn’t make those type of passes. That’s what I mean when I say meaningful passes. I notice Sorensen was doing this when he last had a run in the team and how refreshing it was to see.

Kenny plays it safe, his general stats will be good but if you had a stat for footballing influence he would be really poor. Don’t get me wrong Kenny always give 100% so I have no issues from that point of view, he’s just not good enough for Norwich definitely at this level and I would say for us…at Championship level too.