Can we build a squad for prem?

[Newtopia 517]

I think it would be really tough to stay up, that shouldn’t stop us having a go and doing it with style.  Not sure any of the current players would leave if we went us, none of them are immediately ready for a top 6 side annd they should realise they will get plenty of match time at Norwich, although I maybe wrong about Sara.  Hopefully Knapper brings in a few top young players and continues to build a squad across the board - including his coach - Wagner has been very good, yet I feel Knapper has a different view of the future and needs to be true to that.

Edited March 10 by Newtopia

[Fen Canary 828]

57 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

I think it would be really tough to stay up, that shouldn’t stop us having a go and doing it with style.  Not sure any of the current players would leave if we went us, none of them are immediately ready for a top 6 side annd they should realise they will get plenty of match time at Norwich, although I maybe wrong about Sara.  Hopefully Knapper brings in a few top young players and continues to build a squad across the board - including his coach - Wagner has been very good, yet I feel Knapper has a different view of the future and needs to be true to that.

If Wagner gets us promoted he deserves his crack at the top flight. He’s had horrendous luck with injuries to key players in my opinion so if we somehow win the playoffs I’ll say he’s had an excellent season. He kept Huddersfield up after all

[Fen Canary 828]

7 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

And therein lies the issue, if staying up consistently, means playing defensive, god awful hoofball relying on overly physical players, then I'd rather yo-yo between the prem and champs than watch that rubbish each week.

Look at Stoke under Pulis, terrible football to watch but it kept them up, when they tried to be more creative it started going downhill, and they've never recovered since.

The problem is that this 'evolution over time', is almost a myth, the only way this happens is if significant money is pumped into the side on a regular basis to deal with new players and increasingly higher wages to keep that evolution going, and that's simply not going to happen here for the forseeable future.

People point out Brentford as example of doing things on a relatively limited budget, yet despite being able to stay up for a couple of seasons, they're currently only 5 points ahead of Luton ffs, they're in a relegation battle still and already miles behind where they finished last season, so where's this evolution over time then? 3 years in the prem and yet they're worse this year than when they came up!

I'd much rather we played exciting attacking football, be this like under Stringer/Walker/Lambert/Farke and their differing approaches, then EVER go back down the Hughton route (which Wagner can be akin to at times), and if we get outplayed our outmuscled, then so be it.

You could offer me the premier league title with champions league football, but if it was acheived by parking the bus, playing dire, overly defensive dross each week whilst scraping out 1-0 wins, then you can keep it, and I'd rather we went down than watch that garbage match after match. I want to be entertained, I want to see skillful dribbling, outstanding passes, outrageous finishes and a style of play that celebrates everything great about football, not 11 thugs on a pitch hoping to score from a set piece and then putting 10 men in defence...

Why do you assume we’ll always yo-yo? It’s all well and good saying you don’t want to be a mid table side playing pragmatist football in the top flight, but I’ll bet you’d hate it even more being a mid table second tier club unable to afford players with a bit of flair 

[aBee 151]

7 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

And therein lies the issue, if staying up consistently, means playing defensive, god awful hoofball relying on overly physical players, then I'd rather yo-yo between the prem and champs than watch that rubbish each week.

Look at Stoke under Pulis, terrible football to watch but it kept them up, when they tried to be more creative it started going downhill, and they've never recovered since.

The problem is that this 'evolution over time', is almost a myth, the only way this happens is if significant money is pumped into the side on a regular basis to deal with new players and increasingly higher wages to keep that evolution going, and that's simply not going to happen here for the forseeable future.

People point out Brentford as example of doing things on a relatively limited budget, yet despite being able to stay up for a couple of seasons, they're currently only 5 points ahead of Luton ffs, they're in a relegation battle still and already miles behind where they finished last season, so where's this evolution over time then? 3 years in the prem and yet they're worse this year than when they came up!

I'd much rather we played exciting attacking football, be this like under Stringer/Walker/Lambert/Farke and their differing approaches, then EVER go back down the Hughton route (which Wagner can be akin to at times), and if we get outplayed our outmuscled, then so be it.

You could offer me the premier league title with champions league football, but if it was acheived by parking the bus, playing dire, overly defensive dross each week whilst scraping out 1-0 wins, then you can keep it, and I'd rather we went down than watch that garbage match after match. I want to be entertained, I want to see skillful dribbling, outstanding passes, outrageous finishes and a style of play that celebrates everything great about football, not 11 thugs on a pitch hoping to score from a set piece and then putting 10 men in defence...

We have missed through injury for much of the season our first choice LB and RB, two of our 3 first choice CBs, Mbeumo and Schade and of course Toney through his ban. We also lost three regular starters to Afcon/Asia Cup (2 getting to SF one to Final so away for all January and half of Feb). We’re second only to Newcastle for missing players and despite them having Saudi billions behind them they’re also like us 6 places lower in the table than they finished last season. It’s hard to evolve when you’ve suffered a mass extinction!!!

[Newtopia 517]

26 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

If Wagner gets us promoted he deserves his crack at the top flight. He’s had horrendous luck with injuries to key players in my opinion so if we somehow win the playoffs I’ll say he’s had an excellent season. He kept Huddersfield up after all

I agree he deserves a crack, and I really like him.  
 

The reason I think we might need to change is that we only have a chance of staying up if, the sporting director, the head coach, and owners are aligned.  If Wagner and Knapper are aligned then fantastic - if they are not, and one wants a squad of experienced high wage players on short term contracts, and the other wants younger players on long term contacts it just will not work.  The SD is the one who is responsible for that decision.

Edited March 11 by Newtopia

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

I think Ricardo has the right attitude of 'embracing the yoyo'. Promotion is an achievement in itself that helps secure the finances of the club, and it's also a chance to get up and stay up. If you accept the odds are against you on promotion then it makes the whole experience a lot less stressful, and you never know, the stars of no injuries and a bit of luck might align one year to give a chance of consolidation.

Being too desperate to survive has been a large part of why people have got themselves into such a state about where we were as a yo yo club that has contributed to the downward spiral that is only just being arrested and turned around to get us back to being a reliable yo yo club.

I am optimistic that we might be better placed in terms of financial backing to make a better fist of it next time though.

Edited March 11 by littleyellowbirdie

[Newtopia 517]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think Ricardo has the right attitude of 'embracing the yoyo'. Promotion is an achievement in itself that helps secure the finances of the club, and it's also a chance to get up and stay up. If you accept the odds are against you on promotion then it makes the whole experience a lot less stressful, and you never know, the stars of no injuries and a bit of luck might align one year to give a chance of consolidation.

Being too desperate to survive has been a large part of why people have got themselves into such a state about where we were as a yo yo club that has contributed to the downward spiral that is only just being arrested and turned around to get us back to being a reliable yo yo club.

I am optimistic that we might be better placed in terms of financial backing to make a better fist of it next time though.

I totally agree, if the option is being a yo-yo club or accepting mid championship or worse, I would like to yo-yo.  If n fairness to webbers and Delia their target was top 26.   It is the expectations which destroy clubs, anyone who enters into the discussion proclaiming they are a ‘big’ club need to take a long look at themselves.

[BroadstairsR 2,171]

We all constantly complain about the effect of ludicrous money on our top level football and the glass ceiling it creates. The massive fees and the obscene wages, usually financed by big, big money, which is often from corrupt or unsavoury sources.

We can't beat that. We can use it though through yo-yo and parachutes. Luton virtually accepted the inevitable before a ball was kicked, City went half-and-half (by their financial standards,) and that was possibly the wrong line to take. It was, however, the right line to take with regards some of his signings that Summer. I believe that in Sargent, Tzolis and Rashica Webber had an eye on the future as much as on the present. The first confirms this, the second could have done, the third meant dealing with a complicated character who could have ripped the Championship apart but chose not to. Other signings, like Lees Melou would have made very good Chumps players but also chose not too. The loanees system was somewhat bungled in my memory, although I cannot recall the exact details. The biggest mistake of all was in appointing the hapless Dean Smith. Wagner might just have made it at first attempt, despite his obvious flaws.

All the nightmares of continued Championship existence have unfolded before our very eyes in quick time, ie. losses and debt. Thanks to Webber (humble pie here) we currently have the likes of Sargent, Sara, Gunn, Nunez and Saintz (free, but below the surface perhaps not so) and even Stacey paid for with Premier League money and also a flourishing academy similarly financed and giving us Rowe and the long-lost Andrew Omobamidele, and now potentially other gems.

There was something in the need for experience and backbone in the squad, although it went too far and may have cost more than justified when we had Hanley, McClean and Gibson in-house already. Who knows, we are still in with shout after all?

I have turned somewhat with my view of Stuart Webber in view of all this, but feel he was allowed too much control, and it was a pity he became rather self-overblown and obnoxious in his behaviour, particularly towards the fans, and for this I remain glad he has departed.   

Wagner deserved a crack at the play-offs, but whatever the outcome, I will never see him as a good long-term fit.

Edited March 11 by BroadstairsR

[canarybubbles 1,915]

10 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

We all constantly complain about the effect of ludicrous money on our top level football and the glass season it creates. The massive fees and the obscene wages, usually financed by big, big money, which is often from corrupt or unsavoury sources.

We can't beat that. We can use it though through yo-yo and parachutes. Luton virtually accepted the inevitable before a ball was kicked, City went half-and-half (by their standards,) and that was possibly the wrong line to take. It was, however, the right line to take with regards some of his signings that Summer. I believe that in Sargent, Tzolis and Rashica Webber had an eye on the future as much as on the present. The first confirms this, the second could have done, the third meant dealing with a complicated character who could have ripped the Championship apart but chose not to. Other signings, like Lees Melou would have made good Chumps players but also chose not too. The loanees system was somewhat bungled in my memory, although I cannot recall the exact details. The biggest mistake of all was in appointing the hapless Dean Smith. Wagner might just have made it at first attempt, despite his obvious flaws.

All the nightmares of continued Championship existence have unfolded before our very eyes in quick time, ie, losses and debt. Thanks to Webber (humble pie here) we currently have the likes of Sargent, Sara, Gunn, Nunez and Saintz (free, but below the surface perhaps not so) and even Stacey paid for with Premier League money and also a flourishing academy similarly financed and giving us Rowe and the long-lost Andrew Omobamidele, and now potentially other gems.

There was something in the need for experience and backbone in the squad, although it went too far and may have cost more than justified when we had Hanley, McClean and Gibson in-house already. Who knows, we are still in with shout after all?

I have turned somewhat with my view of Stuart Webber in view of all this, but feel he was allowed too much control, and it was a pity he became rather self-overblown becoming obnoxious in his behaviour, particularly towards the fans, and for this I remain glad he has departed.   

Wagner deserved a crack at the play-offs, but whatever the outcome, I will never see him as a good long-term fit.

I agree with you about the appointment of Dean Smith. He wasn't merely hapless; he let everything slide disastrously both on and off the pitch and is a big reason why Wagner has had to spend much of his time here trying to rebuild bridges and arrest decline. Smith clearly thought he was too good for us (e.g. his reported comments [I think by Bailey?] about our dressing room shortly after his arrival). I wonder how the soccer supremo is enjoying life in North Carolina.

[Yobocop 1,099]

On 10/03/2024 at 08:43, cambridgeshire canary said:

I do like how you claim four players who have never played in the Prem nor played in a top flight are "prem standard"

Which ones haven’t played in the premier league or a top flight league abroad? 

I can only see 3 who haven’t played in the premier league for a start 
 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

6 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Smith clearly thought he was too good for us (e.g. his reported comments [I think by Bailey?] about our dressing room shortly after his arrival). I wonder how the soccer supremo is enjoying life in North Carolina.

If he thought he was too good for us then he wouldn't have taken the job;  Just more ridiculous nonsense from the idiots who decided he was the whipping boy for their ridiculous expectations not being met.

[BroadstairsR 2,171]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If he thought he was too good for us then he wouldn't have taken the job;  Just more ridiculous nonsense from the idiots who decided he was the whipping boy for their ridiculous expectations not being met.

Rubbish, him and his mate Shakespeare were unemployed at the time and were probably offered a decent wedge by City. Besides, he made that remark after he took the job nb "shortly after his arrival."

As for your second point, there are clearly a lot of entitled idiots on this forum who spout ridiculous nonsense.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

We’re not going up this season, so no need to worry!

Next season though, assuming Leicester, Leeds and Saints go up, offers a fantastic opportunity. If, and it’s a big if, we keep the squad together. Mainly, Sargent, Sara, Sainz and Nunez!  We’ve got the nucleus of another title winning side at this level. I fear we’ll lose at least Sargent and Sara though (I’m resigned to losing Rowe). Get the impression Sainz will have an agent ready to move him to the EPL at the slightest whiff of move too.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

2 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

We’re not going up this season, so no need to worry!

You can't be that certain. We're still in the race.

[BurwellCanary 216]

14 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think Ricardo has the right attitude of 'embracing the yoyo'. Promotion is an achievement in itself that helps secure the finances of the club, and it's also a chance to get up and stay up. If you accept the odds are against you on promotion then it makes the whole experience a lot less stressful, and you never know, the stars of no injuries and a bit of luck might align one year to give a chance of consolidation.

Being too desperate to survive has been a large part of why people have got themselves into such a state about where we were as a yo yo club that has contributed to the downward spiral that is only just being arrested and turned around to get us back to being a reliable yo yo club.

I am optimistic that we might be better placed in terms of financial backing to make a better fist of it next time though.

I agree that a reliable Yo Yo club is a much better business model than an unreliable one. I would also suggest that part of the problem for the last 2 promotions (I know we blame Covid but everyone was in the same boat) was that the team and playstyle were all about Pukki. Once he wasn't getting chances there was no plan B. At least with this squad (if it could be retained) we have goals from a number of sources rather than just one.

[hairpie 7]

No I think it will very difficult. the problem is if we dont go up this year , then next year we will weaker to get promoted.

 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You can't be that certain. We're still in the race.

I’ll die on this hill.

Opps, wrong thread.

[baldy09 156]

Sadly if we dont go up I an see our team ripped apart - Knapper forced to sell our quality players and we will  go onto buying journey men a once again - we could languish in mid champs for years

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

1 hour ago, baldy09 said:

Sadly if we dont go up I an see our team ripped apart - Knapper forced to sell our quality players and we will  go onto buying journey men a once again - we could languish in mid champs for years

That's the spirit 😃

We may be forced to sell a couple, but no way Knapper will go down the 'journey man' route. 

[Newtopia 517]

On 11/03/2024 at 23:17, littleyellowbirdie said:

If he thought he was too good for us then he wouldn't have taken the job;  Just more ridiculous nonsense from the idiots who decided he was the whipping boy for their ridiculous expectations not being met.

I love how positive and loyal you always are.  I think the problem with Dean Smith was that his job was to coach the squad in line with the SD vision.  He simply wasn’t very good at it, he wasn’t able to create a side with a specific style, or plan (people may moan about Wagner but there is a style there, although it gets carved up when things do not go our way).  He tinkered with the side a lot, adapting for the opposition every game.  When it went well everyone was okay with it, when it went badly we were really poor.  He played loan players in the side when he should have been developing our own academy players and also he prioritised Pukki as the central striker, whilst Sargent played left winger.  Yet the side was set up for a more rounded frontman, which looked like being Sarge or Idah at the start of the season.  Therefore he wasn’t getting the best out of the squad, nor growing the squads long term potential - he was wasn’t very good at it, which starkly contrasted with DF.
 

In his defence he should have been getting direction from Stuart Webber, I think Stuart took his eye off the ball, and the situation was allowed to fester as Stuart looked for a way out for himself opposed to looking after the clubs long term interests.

I am certain Dean Smith is a nice guy, and was really uncomfortable with the personal abuse he got, but he wasn’t a scapegoat, he was making the decisions.  Hayden and Ramsey were his choices, as was playing Sarge out wide with Rowe left in the U23’s.

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

1 hour ago, Newtopia said:

I love how positive and loyal you always are.  I think the problem with Dean Smith was that his job was to coach the squad in line with the SD vision.  He simply wasn’t very good at it, he wasn’t able to create a side with a specific style, or plan (people may moan about Wagner but there is a style there, although it gets carved up when things do not go our way).  He tinkered with the side a lot, adapting for the opposition every game.  When it went well everyone was okay with it, when it went badly we were really poor.  He played loan players in the side when he should have been developing our own academy players and also he prioritised Pukki as the central striker, whilst Sargent played left winger.  Yet the side was set up for a more rounded frontman, which looked like being Sarge or Idah at the start of the season.  Therefore he wasn’t getting the best out of the squad, nor growing the squads long term potential - he was wasn’t very good at it, which starkly contrasted with DF.
 

In his defence he should have been getting direction from Stuart Webber, I think Stuart took his eye off the ball, and the situation was allowed to fester as Stuart looked for a way out for himself opposed to looking after the clubs long term interests.

I am certain Dean Smith is a nice guy, and was really uncomfortable with the personal abuse he got, but he wasn’t a scapegoat, he was making the decisions.  Hayden and Ramsey were his choices, as was playing Sarge out wide with Rowe left in the U23’s.

Dean Smith is not a nice guy. He arranged training around his tee times at Dunston Hall. He appointed a senior group of players to decide team tactics on a game by game basis. Kenny Maclean publicly stated that things may have been better if Smith spent more time at the training ground and less at the bookies. 

It is no coincidence that he has had to go to America to find work. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Dean Smith is not a nice guy. He arranged training around his tee times at Dunston Hall. He appointed a senior group of players to decide team tactics on a game by game basis. Kenny Maclean publicly stated that things may have been better if Smith spent more time at the training ground and less at the bookies. 

It is no coincidence that he has had to go to America to find work. 

He went to Leicester before he went to America, and was within a whisker of keeping them up.

I doubt he sees America as a punishment for him given the lifestyle and the fact his son plays there.

That group led discussion approach to tactics is not uncommon. Klopp is on record saying he takes that approach.

3 hours ago, Newtopia said:

I love how positive and loyal you always are.  I think the problem with Dean Smith was that his job was to coach the squad in line with the SD vision.  He simply wasn’t very good at it, he wasn’t able to create a side with a specific style, or plan (people may moan about Wagner but there is a style there, although it gets carved up when things do not go our way).  He tinkered with the side a lot, adapting for the opposition every game.  When it went well everyone was okay with it, when it went badly we were really poor.  He played loan players in the side when he should have been developing our own academy players and also he prioritised Pukki as the central striker, whilst Sargent played left winger.  Yet the side was set up for a more rounded frontman, which looked like being Sarge or Idah at the start of the season.  Therefore he wasn’t getting the best out of the squad, nor growing the squads long term potential - he was wasn’t very good at it, which starkly contrasted with DF.
 

In his defence he should have been getting direction from Stuart Webber, I think Stuart took his eye off the ball, and the situation was allowed to fester as Stuart looked for a way out for himself opposed to looking after the clubs long term interests.

I am certain Dean Smith is a nice guy, and was really uncomfortable with the personal abuse he got, but he wasn’t a scapegoat, he was making the decisions.  Hayden and Ramsey were his choices, as was playing Sarge out wide with Rowe left in the U23’s.

Thanks. Much appreciated. My only thought on that is I'm pretty sure his brief was to put more emphasis on being difficult to beat, which I also think was Farke's brief when his usual approach failed against better opposition, but I also think it has been Wagner's brief as well. Wagner also failed at it a long time, but now seems to be making progress. Time often makes a difference.

I mean, at the end of the day, is it a hill I want to die on? Not really. It wasn't perfect; maybe he wouldn't have turned it around. Dean Smith's alright, and we're coming good so all's well.

But the way he was/is regarded by many is ugly, excessive and unnecessary. I just don't like it.

Edited March 13 by littleyellowbirdie

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

14 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

He went to Leicester before he went to America, and was within a whisker of keeping them up.

I doubt he sees America as a punishment for him given the lifestyle and the fact his son plays there.

That group led discussion approach to tactics is not uncommon. Klopp is on record saying he takes that approach.

Thanks. Much appreciated. My only thought on that is I'm pretty sure his brief was to put more emphasis on being difficult to beat, which I also think was Farke's brief when his usual approach failed against better opposition, but I also think it has been Wagner's brief as well. Wagner also failed at it a long time, but now seems to be making progress. Time often makes a difference.

I mean, at the end of the day, is it a hill I want to die on? Not really. It wasn't perfect; maybe he wouldn't have turned it around. Dean Smith's alright, and we're coming good so all's well.

But the way he was/is regarded by many is ugly, excessive and unnecessary. I just don't like it.

It wasn't a "group led discussion"! He just left them to sort it out and cleared off to the bookies or the golf course. The players despised him. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

It wasn't a "group led discussion"! He just left them to sort it out and cleared off to the bookies or the golf course. The players despised him. 

You're just making stuff up on the first part, and there's very little evidence of the second part.  There was on the other hand evidence of very worthwhile loanee who walked. Loans are useful for a club like us and we haven't seen much on that score since.

You're a prime example of the ridiculous irrational bile against the guy. He'd been managing successfully with very long terms in place at his clubs before he came here. Well respected throughout the sport. People like you were the problem.

Edited March 13 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

To be fair, if you're going to complain about a player-led approach to tactics, then you'll have to criticise possibly the best international manager of all time there. Helmut Schön was renowned for letting players have their say and there was a fair bit of discussion when West Germany won the 1974 World Cup on how Franz Beckenbauer, the captain, had stripped him of authority after the 0-1 defeat against East Germany.

I'm inclined to say that it's good practice to let the players have their say, but the acid test is how stringently the manager enforces the line.

[Robert N. LiM 4,363]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I'm inclined to say that it's good practice to let the players have their say, but the acid test is how stringently the manager enforces the line

Also depends how good and/or intelligent the players are. Beckenbauer > Hanley

Edited March 13 by Robert N. LiM

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

The difference in prem is that every mistake gets punished. Our defence makes LOTS- so unless we replaced almost the entire defence and got a decent skipp type midfielder to protect them- it would be pretty depressing I think…

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Also depends how good and/or intelligent the players are. Beckenbauer > Hanley

True, and I remember reading in one of Garry Nelson's books (think it was Left Foot In The Grave) where he was talking to Sam Allardyce before he'd gone to Bolton and Allardyce said that players at lower levels really don't remember things, so repetition, repetition, repetition was order of the day.

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

17 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You're just making stuff up on the first part, and there's very little evidence of the second part.  There was on the other hand evidence of very worthwhile loanee who walked. Loans are useful for a club like us and we haven't seen much on that score since.

You're a prime example of the ridiculous irrational bile against the guy. He'd been managing successfully with very long terms in place at his clubs before he came here. Well respected throughout the sport. People like you were the problem.

No, I'm afraid I'm not making stuff up. Things were really that bad. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

2 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

No, I'm afraid I'm not making stuff up. Things were really that bad. 

No they weren't. I read it all at the time and it's nothing like the way you're presenting things; gross exaggeration on your part.

And as I've said before, at no point were we as low in the table as we've been this season, while at no point this season have we been as high as we were when we were on a roll and fairly free from injuries last season.

Edited March 13 by littleyellowbirdie