Apologising To David Wagner

[The Bunny 310]

2 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

I find it funny people forget he had the worst budget probably in premier league history the first time round,  in a season that stopped because of covid and started up with every game behind closed doors. He also got us too the FA cup quarter final. The 2nd time he had a covid hit preseason,  the hardest start possible and most of his main signings weren't good enough for the championship let alone the prem, after losing his two best players during the summer.  

This is all true. But I'd suggest 6 wins in 49 games is still a very poor return, even with the mitigating circumstances you rightly point out. And as mentioned above, other teams have done better on similar budgets to ours.

I'm with you on the player sales that transfer window though. Webber utterly screwed us by selling Buendia and failing to replace Skipp. Both managers who followed were on a hiding to nothing. That was really the start of our decline. 

[sgncfc 1,233]

Just catching up on this thread. Firstly, no one owes Wagner any apologies. He quite clearly showed during a period where the wheels were falling off that he was completely clueless about how to put them back on again. Yes, he has been rescued by the return to fitness of two of his better players (Sargent and Gunn) but even with that our form is patchy to say the least.

Secondly, Saturday's game was the best we have played under him. We had a system, for probably the first time. Everyone knew what they were doing and did it, for probably the first time. It was still a bit iffy at the start of the second half, and the third goal came at just the right time. Plus we were playing a Cardiff team who showed that on their day they too can be the worst team in the Championship. We still managed to gift them two or three gilt edged chances by sloppy passes. But credit where it's due, both the crowd and the players produced when it mattered and we all had a lovely day.

One swallow doesn't make a summer, but there is now hope at least that until the next injury strikes we have a chance of putting a winning run together. I emphasise that injury thing. Wagner has shown his lack of flexibility throughout the season. If Sargent or Gunn go absent again, we're dead in the water as far as the playoffs are concerned. Those two are irreplaceable within the current squad.

People are making a big thing about our recent form, but even 27 points from the last 15 games isn't auto promotion form - our away record would need to improve a lot before we're in that territory., so let's not all get carried away because we've won some home games with a lot of luck and a bit of decent football.

The best thing Wagner has done to date is find a way of playing which accommodates Maclean, Nunez and Sara in the same team. I still don't think it's ideal because as soon as we're pressed we give up the ball, but offensively it's working. In the Championship. In the EPL? Not a cat in hell's chance.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

34 points from the last 18 is 87 points over the season.

its clearly not enough. We’re entitled to expect form that would give 100 points and 100 goals.

Booooo!

Everyone out…

 

[The Bunny 310]

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

One swallow doesn't make a summer, but there is now hope at least that until the next injury strikes we have a chance of putting a winning run together. I emphasise that injury thing. Wagner has shown his lack of flexibility throughout the season. If Sargent or Gunn go absent again, we're dead in the water as far as the playoffs are concerned. Those two are irreplaceable within the current squad.

One swallow? We've won 6 of the last 8. 

As for the injury comments, name one team who wouldn't struggle without their best players. The fact that you interpret that as a reflection on the manager (as opposed to a mitigating factor explaining our earlier poor form) shows just how hard you're having to twist reality to fit your worldview. 

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Just catching up on this thread. Firstly, no one owes Wagner any apologies. He quite clearly showed during a period where the wheels were falling off that he was completely clueless about how to put them back on again. Yes, he has been rescued by the return to fitness of two of his better players (Sargent and Gunn) but even with that our form is patchy to say the least.

Secondly, Saturday's game was the best we have played under him. We had a system, for probably the first time. Everyone knew what they were doing and did it, for probably the first time. It was still a bit iffy at the start of the second half, and the third goal came at just the right time. Plus we were playing a Cardiff team who showed that on their day they too can be the worst team in the Championship. We still managed to gift them two or three gilt edged chances by sloppy passes. But credit where it's due, both the crowd and the players produced when it mattered and we all had a lovely day.

One swallow doesn't make a summer, but there is now hope at least that until the next injury strikes we have a chance of putting a winning run together. I emphasise that injury thing. Wagner has shown his lack of flexibility throughout the season. If Sargent or Gunn go absent again, we're dead in the water as far as the playoffs are concerned. Those two are irreplaceable within the current squad.

People are making a big thing about our recent form, but even 27 points from the last 15 games isn't auto promotion form - our away record would need to improve a lot before we're in that territory., so let's not all get carried away because we've won some home games with a lot of luck and a bit of decent football.

The best thing Wagner has done to date is find a way of playing which accommodates Maclean, Nunez and Sara in the same team. I still don't think it's ideal because as soon as we're pressed we give up the ball, but offensively it's working. In the Championship. In the EPL? Not a cat in hell's chance.

Oh, someone is very disappointed we are winning games

[Virtual reality 712]

He deserves the full backing of the fans and the same level of support from the stands that every other norwich manager has received when his club has been pushing for a play off place. His results over the last 12 games speak for themselves and had a new manager came in and produced this run he would be lauded as the new messiah. I’d have happily seen him shown the door but I was wrong. It’s not hard to admit that.

Edited February 19 by Virtual reality

[Petriix 2,847]

1 hour ago, The Bunny said:

As for the injury comments, name one team who wouldn't struggle without their best players.

There's "struggle" then there's picking up just 7 points from 10 games. In fact, we picked up just 7 points from our final 11 games in 2022/23 and were on an incredibly poor run which would usually be enough to see a manager sacked by November 2023. The 10 points from the first four games this season seemed to be the anomaly as those results are included in a total of 24 points from 25 games bridging the end of last season and the start of this one.

Now we've clearly had a revival under Knapper and I'm glad that he stuck with Wagner at this point. But it's absolutely fair enough for people to be a bit sceptical about his long-term suitability for the job. You don't have to have a particularly long memory to recall the feeling that we were dropping like a stone towards League One.

The good news is that his outburst seemed to have the desired effect and the crowd was noticeably putting in the effort, though I did struggle to get my "you do know what you're doing" chant going. It's an interesting time to be a Norwich fan.

[The Bunny 310]

21 minutes ago, Petriix said:

There's "struggle" then there's picking up just 7 points from 10 games. In fact, we picked up just 7 points from our final 11 games in 2022/23 and were on an incredibly poor run which would usually be enough to see a manager sacked by November 2023. The 10 points from the first four games this season seemed to be the anomaly as those results are included in a total of 24 points from 25 games bridging the end of last season and the start of this one.

Don't get me wrong, I was calling for him to be sacked back in November like most others on here. But the fact that he had players out during the period we struggled is a bit of a weird stick with which to beat him. 

[Mason 47 1,389]

19 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Don't get me wrong, I was calling for him to be sacked back in November like most others on here. But the fact that he had players out during the period we struggled is a bit of a weird stick with which to beat him. 

The stick is slightly more nuanced, I think. As I understand the stick, it was that despite having 3-4 players out who were vital to making his gameplan work, Wagner continued to deploy a system that made us look hopeless. 

Maybe we are reaping the benefits of that commitment now, it's impossible to say. But it definitely seems to me that we would have been better off adapting our tactics until our big players came back as it most definitely wasn't working.

It actually seems similar to me to the above arguments over Farke and the lack of budget. Yes, it's a good point and must be factored in, but we were still trying the same things in game 38 as game 1. It's reasonable to suggest some manner of adaptation might have captured more than 6 wins.

[sgncfc 1,233]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

Oh, someone is very disappointed we are winning games

Sorry that I have an opinion which differs from yours - you're obviously a much, much better fan than me.

[sgncfc 1,233]

2 hours ago, The Bunny said:

One swallow? We've won 6 of the last 8. 

As for the injury comments, name one team who wouldn't struggle without their best players. The fact that you interpret that as a reflection on the manager (as opposed to a mitigating factor explaining our earlier poor form) shows just how hard you're having to twist reality to fit your worldview. 

What garbage we watched earlier in the season - you don't remember that?  Forgotten Southampton at home? Of course it's down to the manager and his coaches - who else would it be down to? Every team has injuries and if you look at the tables of time out for players we are no worse affected than most teams in this league. I'm not twisting anything. I gave Wagner a lot of time before I concluded he was hopeless. He had chance after chance to tweak systems to suit the players he had available, both at the end of last season when we lost Maclean and Hanley and this when we lost Sargent, Barnes and Gunn. He did nothing, apart from try to fit players who couldn't play the role he wanted them to play. He did that on both occasions. The players and coaches were clueless.

They threw away points with abandon by ridiculous selection, tactical and substitution decisions. And let's not forget Plymouth away - that was solely down to our injuries was it?

We've had some good results since the turn of the year but only two good performances (West Brom and Cardiff). He's still got a long way to go to convince me. 

[Indy 3,307]

1 hour ago, The Bunny said:

Don't get me wrong, I was calling for him to be sacked back in November like most others on here. But the fact that he had players out during the period we struggled is a bit of a weird stick with which to beat him. 

It might be that we have a core of good players and the rest are not that good! So injury to key players highlights it more…so again is it that he’s actually getting more out of the squad than the quality it really has, take away Sargent, Sara & Rowe we wouldn’t be anywhere near the top 6!

[Sufyellow 222]

52 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

The stick is slightly more nuanced, I think. As I understand the stick, it was that despite having 3-4 players out who were vital to making his gameplan work, Wagner continued to deploy a system that made us look hopeless. 

Maybe we are reaping the benefits of that commitment now, it's impossible to say. But it definitely seems to me that we would have been better off adapting our tactics until our big players came back as it most definitely wasn't working.

It actually seems similar to me to the above arguments over Farke and the lack of budget. Yes, it's a good point and must be factored in, but we were still trying the same things in game 38 as game 1. It's reasonable to suggest some manner of adaptation might have captured more than 6 wins.

Farke tried several different ways to play in his second prem season,  it's lazy for people to say otherwise. He was trying to find away to compete with a weak bunch of players.  

[hogesar 9,709]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

Sorry that I have an opinion which differs from yours - you're obviously a much, much better fan than me.

To be fair you've always been a fair poster but if you read your post back it does genuinely come across like you're bitter about the fact we are winning games.

Wagner endured a diabolical run that most managers don't come back from but he has kept the squad together and playing for him and has gained the 3rd most points in the league in 2024, and sits in the playoffs for the past 18 games which is a bit more than a flash in the pan.

[Paul101 93]

On 17/02/2024 at 11:41, TheBaldOne66 said:

Is Wagner gonna apologise for all the dire crap he’s served up this season too? 

the problem is that dire crap now looks like the refining and learning the new system we are playing now

without that we wouldnt be where we are now

wanted him out myself since last season and going by how you can see the team evolving week on week since xmas with a playing identity to match I dont know now we could be in a Alex Ferguson moment everyone fans and owners thought he was going to go and then it clicked

[BigManInTheBarclay 75]

Yes, the team has improved dramatically. Full props to the club for that.....

But you also have to remember results like Plymouth where it was an absolute s******w. 

[jaberry2 554]

I see Rashica is back on Farkes radar with an offer rejected.

[non-scoring strikers 113]

12 hours ago, Paul101 said:

the problem is that dire crap now looks like the refining and learning the new system we are playing now

without that we wouldnt be where we are now

wanted him out myself since last season and going by how you can see the team evolving week on week since xmas with a playing identity to match I dont know now we could be in a Alex Ferguson moment everyone fans and owners thought he was going to go and then it clicked

Comparing Wagner to Ferguson is utterly bizarre and displays breathtaking naivety.

Ferguson went into that job on the back of a very successful period with Aberdeen including multiple trophies and Man Utd were also languishing at second bottom of the league. They were a team in transition with aging players needing replacing and other younger stars being sold, plus there was a huge drinking culture at the club. Fergie then finished mid table for a few seasons whilst rebuilding and changing the mentality, then we all know what came next.

Wagner did not come to us with any pedigree other than still dining out on getting Huddersfield promoted by drawing the play offs 0-0 (and 1-1 in one match).

Edited February 20 by non-scoring strikers

[littleyellowbirdie 2,565]

13 hours ago, sgncfc said:

What garbage we watched earlier in the season - you don't remember that?  Forgotten Southampton at home? Of course it's down to the manager and his coaches - who else would it be down to? Every team has injuries and if you look at the tables of time out for players we are no worse affected than most teams in this league. I'm not twisting anything. I gave Wagner a lot of time before I concluded he was hopeless. He had chance after chance to tweak systems to suit the players he had available, both at the end of last season when we lost Maclean and Hanley and this when we lost Sargent, Barnes and Gunn. He did nothing, apart from try to fit players who couldn't play the role he wanted them to play. He did that on both occasions. The players and coaches were clueless.

They threw away points with abandon by ridiculous selection, tactical and substitution decisions. And let's not forget Plymouth away - that was solely down to our injuries was it?

We've had some good results since the turn of the year but only two good performances (West Brom and Cardiff). He's still got a long way to go to convince me. 

I'm not an expert, but I believe the players do have something to do with performance in a game of football.

In part, their performances of players are down to how familiar they are with each other's habits of play and how practised they are with what the manager's approach is, both of which tend to develop with time.

'Ridiculous selections'. Managers can only really know what will work by trying it. I suppose that's the difference between fans who think they know everything and managers experimenting and collecting data to refine a team in the real world against real world opponents.

[Paul101 93]

40 minutes ago, non-scoring strikers said:

Comparing Wagner to Ferguson is utterly bizarre and displays breathtaking naivety.

Ferguson went into that job on the back of a very successful period with Aberdeen including multiple trophies and Man Utd were also languishing at second bottom of the league. They were a team in transition with aging players needing replacing and other younger stars being sold, plus there was a huge drinking culture at the club. Fergie then finished mid table for a few seasons whilst rebuilding and changing the mentality, then we all know what came next.

Wagner did not come to us with any pedigree other than still dining out on getting Huddersfield promoted by drawing the play offs 0-0 (and 1-1 in one match).

it was more comparing the first manager who did a year and everyone wanted him out which for wagner was me from day one he fooled me with the odd game but from the end of the season I consistently wanted him gone 

 

[king canary 7,643]

15 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

The stick is slightly more nuanced, I think. As I understand the stick, it was that despite having 3-4 players out who were vital to making his gameplan work, Wagner continued to deploy a system that made us look hopeless. 

Maybe we are reaping the benefits of that commitment now, it's impossible to say. But it definitely seems to me that we would have been better off adapting our tactics until our big players came back as it most definitely wasn't working.

It actually seems similar to me to the above arguments over Farke and the lack of budget. Yes, it's a good point and must be factored in, but we were still trying the same things in game 38 as game 1. It's reasonable to suggest some manner of adaptation might have captured more than 6 wins.

This is a perfect summary of the issues we have had with Wagner.

Yes losing Sargent was tough and made worse by Barnes also getting injured. But when you can see the whole system doesn't work without those players then it is bizarre to persist with that system week in week out. He doesn't have to rip everything up but he needs to work out a 'how to play without Sargent' system.

 

[king canary 7,643]

On 19/02/2024 at 01:00, The Bunny said:

This is all true. But I'd suggest 6 wins in 49 games is still a very poor return, even with the mitigating circumstances you rightly point out. And as mentioned above, other teams have done better on similar budgets to ours.

I do kind of feel that this season in the Premier League should have put to bed the idea that 'nobody could have gotten more' from our Premier League squads. 

Luton Town are competitive this season despite having spent very little. They would kill for a couple of players with the talent of Buendia, Pukki or even Aarons and I've no doubt even players like Rashica, Normann and Kabak would be considered upgrades. 

Yes Farke wasn't given great squads but his determination to play the way he chose to played a big part in our struggles.

[The Bunny 310]

3 hours ago, non-scoring strikers said:

Wagner did not come to us with any pedigree other than still dining out on getting Huddersfield promoted by drawing the play offs 0-0 (and 1-1 in one match).

You realize he then kept that team up the following season, right?

[Sufyellow 222]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm not an expert, but I believe the players do have something to do with performance in a game of football.

In part, their performances of players are down to how familiar they are with each other's habits of play and how practised they are with what the manager's approach is, both of which tend to develop with time.

'Ridiculous selections'. Managers can only really know what will work by trying it. I suppose that's the difference between fans who think they know everything and managers experimenting and collecting data to refine a team in the real world against real world opponents.

Says the person , who said Farke was rubbish after 11 games in the prem with a new team. Oh dear. And then some of those players arrived late. 

[Sufyellow 222]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I do kind of feel that this season in the Premier League should have put to bed the idea that 'nobody could have gotten more' from our Premier League squads. 

Luton Town are competitive this season despite having spent very little. They would kill for a couple of players with the talent of Buendia, Pukki or even Aarons and I've no doubt even players like Rashica, Normann and Kabak would be considered upgrades. 

Yes Farke wasn't given great squads but his determination to play the way he chose to played a big part in our struggles.

What, when he was playing a back 5? 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,565]

16 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

Says the person , who said Farke was rubbish after 11 games in the prem with a new team. Oh dear. And then some of those players arrived late. 

What planet are you on? He'd been manager for several years carrying over a large proportion of players from the previous season.

[BigFish 1,988]

18 hours ago, Petriix said:

Now we've clearly had a revival under Knapper

Ah, the old everything that goes wrong lies with one person, Wagner in this case, but when something goes right it must be down to something else chestnut.

[Jim Smith 2,325]

22 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Just catching up on this thread. Firstly, no one owes Wagner any apologies. He quite clearly showed during a period where the wheels were falling off that he was completely clueless about how to put them back on again. Yes, he has been rescued by the return to fitness of two of his better players (Sargent and Gunn) but even with that our form is patchy to say the least.

Secondly, Saturday's game was the best we have played under him. We had a system, for probably the first time. Everyone knew what they were doing and did it, for probably the first time. It was still a bit iffy at the start of the second half, and the third goal came at just the right time. Plus we were playing a Cardiff team who showed that on their day they too can be the worst team in the Championship. We still managed to gift them two or three gilt edged chances by sloppy passes. But credit where it's due, both the crowd and the players produced when it mattered and we all had a lovely day.

One swallow doesn't make a summer, but there is now hope at least that until the next injury strikes we have a chance of putting a winning run together. I emphasise that injury thing. Wagner has shown his lack of flexibility throughout the season. If Sargent or Gunn go absent again, we're dead in the water as far as the playoffs are concerned. Those two are irreplaceable within the current squad.

People are making a big thing about our recent form, but even 27 points from the last 15 games isn't auto promotion form - our away record would need to improve a lot before we're in that territory., so let's not all get carried away because we've won some home games with a lot of luck and a bit of decent football.

The best thing Wagner has done to date is find a way of playing which accommodates Maclean, Nunez and Sara in the same team. I still don't think it's ideal because as soon as we're pressed we give up the ball, but offensively it's working. In the Championship. In the EPL? Not a cat in hell's chance.

Big test for me with Wagner is what he does when Gibson and/or Duffy are available again. Nunez must not be sacrificed. If he is then Wagner has learnt nothing. 

[Petriix 2,847]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

Ah, the old everything that goes wrong lies with one person, Wagner in this case, but when something goes right it must be down to something else chestnut.

Congratulations for making the most spurious leap of logic of the day on the Pinkun forum; quite some achievement given the competition on here!

No, I don't blame all our failings on Wagner, nor do I credit Knapper for all our recent successes.

I actually hold Webber most at fault for our decline over the past three seasons. Largely that's down to recruitment and squad (mis)management. I do have some serious question marks about Wagner's tactics at times, particularly when we're outnumbered in midfield, but otherwise think he's done well to turn things around.

It's hard to ignore that we've seen a huge reversal in form from the moment Webber left and Knapper arrived. I imagine that's down to a number of factors, not just the sporting director. Sometimes a small change can give everyone a fresh start. 

[nutty nigel 7,555]

On 19/02/2024 at 19:19, Mason 47 said:

The stick is slightly more nuanced, I think. As I understand the stick, it was that despite having 3-4 players out who were vital to making his gameplan work, Wagner continued to deploy a system that made us look hopeless. 

Maybe we are reaping the benefits of that commitment now, it's impossible to say. But it definitely seems to me that we would have been better off adapting our tactics until our big players came back as it most definitely wasn't working.

It actually seems similar to me to the above arguments over Farke and the lack of budget. Yes, it's a good point and must be factored in, but we were still trying the same things in game 38 as game 1. It's reasonable to suggest some manner of adaptation might have captured more than 6 wins.

Maybe that's true until after the Balckburn game. But that was on Bonfire Night! Since then we've picked up 34 points from 18 games. But the whingeing, whining and booing has been pretty relentless until last Saturday. Thankfully part of Wagner and the players remedy was a siege mentality to do it without the fans. Or at least 20% of them...

Edited February 20 by nutty nigel