Wagner has to go?

[Capt. Pants 4,282]

I'd argue there's more middle ground with him at the moment than outright 'marmite'. The moment has gone in terms of sacking him now - that was the time when Knapper started 2 weeks early. 

I want to hear a bit more from Knapper first. The 'pathways' and trading model are all very well but no different to what we've always been doing just some different words.

It all depends on our plan for next season and if and how we get further investment from the majority shareholders.

 

[ridgeman 135]

2 hours ago, repman said:

We're simply not a well coached football team and that comes down to him and his staff. While the squad isn't perfect it is comfortably in the top 6 in my opinion. It's got a selection of truly outstanding players for this level (Gunn, Sara, Rowe, Sargent) and plenty of players who are above average. 

In my view we haven't looked like a properly cohesive side since the first few games of the season, the underlying numbers support the fact that we are essentially a mid table side. 

As it stands I don't think Wagner is adding any value to the squad, whereas a different coach could do so. Obviously as we near the end of the season that potential impact diminishes.

Couldn’t agree more. As I said in another post after watching the second half of the under 21’s last week I was totally underwhelmed by their performance. Giving possession away cheaply by poor passing or poor decisions it reminded me of the performances of the first team. I would like to see a new coaching team with the emphasis on passing including speed of passing. Let’s hope Knapper has his finger on the pulse.

[stratton canary 135]

4 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

It would only be a problem if it was true.

In your opinion 

[Robert N. LiM 4,501]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

I'm not bought in as I can't shake the feeling this form isn't built on steady foundations. Wagner has always been streaky and I wouldn't be shocked if we went on another 1 win in 10 type of run before the season ends.

Basically agree with this. ^^^

 

3 hours ago, king canary said:

However it's churlish to jump on the first bit of struggle in a while and demand a sacking.

 

Am definitely not demanding a sacking, not sure anyone is at this point.

But this:

3 hours ago, repman said:

We're simply not a well coached football team and that comes down to him and his staff. While the squad isn't perfect it is comfortably in the top 6 in my opinion. It's got a selection of truly outstanding players for this level (Gunn, Sara, Rowe, Sargent) and plenty of players who are above average. 

In my view we haven't looked like a properly cohesive side since the first few games of the season, the underlying numbers support the fact that we are essentially a mid table side. 

As it stands I don't think Wagner is adding any value to the squad, whereas a different coach could do so. Obviously as we near the end of the season that potential impact diminishes.

seems spot on to me and I hope it reflects the way Knapper is thinking (ie looking at underlying numbers rather than results), even if he's not coming to the same conclusion as @repman

Edited February 12 by Robert N. LiM

[king canary 7,679]

10 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Basically agree with this. ^^^

 

 

Am definitely not demanding a sacking, not sure anyone is at this point.

But this:

seems spot on to me and I hope it reflects the way Knapper is thinking (ie looking at underlying numbers rather than results), even if he's not coming to the same conclusion as @repman

Yeah I don't disagree.

I think re the sacking- there is a fairly hardcore group who are so committed to wanting Wagner out that they will refuse to give credit when he does do well but jump in two footed the second things go wrong. These are more evident on twitter than here to be fair though.

[Corbs1 90]

Maybe Wagner thinks some of our ‘fans’ need to go.

I’m not usually a big admirer of Sutton as a broadcaster but yesterday he was bang on. In reference to some Iron ‘fans’ he stated many of the moaners, the ‘walk out at half timers’ are simply not real fans. 
 

People have every right to spend their time  campaigning against the Board, Wagner, ‘day trippers’ or whatever else; as I do to express my opinion of that type of ‘fan’. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,501]

57 minutes ago, king canary said:

there is a fairly hardcore group who are so committed to wanting Wagner out that they will refuse to give credit when he does do well but jump in two footed the second things go wrong. These are more evident on twitter than here to be fair though.

Ah, that's interesting. I've more or less given up on Twitter so wasn't really aware of that.

[Besthorpe-48 103]

7 hours ago, Move Klose said:

Imagine thinking this coach will get us finishing in the top 6, absolutely no chance. 

Save It, screenshot it, book mark it, I don't care it ain't happening.

 

Well that's pretty objectively assessed. Not

Of course it is possible you are correct but on current form the 6th place will be reached with 71 points. Do the maths to see that is correct.  

That means 26 more points from 15 games. Or 7 wins 5 draws and 3 defeats.

Of the games to be played only leicester away and ipswich and Sunderland at home are abovevus in the table. So 12 games involve teams whose average position is 17th. Or roughly Stoke. No other teamn9f the 6 realistically vying for 5th or 6th spot have an easier run in . I think I am correct in saying norwich have not lost at home for 9 games so assuming they win 4 and draw 4 that means they only need 10 points from 7 away games to make 71

I know this is all theoretical but at least it has a better basis of analysis than your unsupported assessment that we have no chancevof making the play offs.

 

 

[Fen Canary 869]

10 hours ago, Satriales said:

If we actually do make the playoffs, would the board see that as a success, even if we don't get promoted?

I think so. To me if we finish in the playoffs then he’s done what can realistically be expected of him with our squad and run of injuries  

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

10 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Whilst it’s unlikely to happen, it would be a really strange turn of events to get promoted and bin the manager just because some fans don’t like him. 

I don't see a problem with this if he's not the right fit for what Knapper/Attanassio wants to do to try and survive in the Premier League should we get there or if a better option becomes available. The manager's a paid employee of the club who isn't owed anything.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,406]

For me the recent upturn in form only made me question DW more. When our players turn up you can see we are actually a good side who ought to be comfortably playoffs and above. But a manager more streaky than bacon whose inept tactics and substitutions regularly undermine us is one of the reasons we have been frustrating to watch all season. The only problem is I can’t see who would want to come in and replace him within our budget of £2.75 

[BroadstairsR 2,206]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

For me the recent upturn in form only made me question DW more. When our players turn up you can see we are actually a good side who ought to be comfortably playoffs and above. But a manager more streaky than bacon whose inept tactics and substitutions regularly undermine us is one of the reasons we have been frustrating to watch all season. The only problem is I can’t see who would want to come in and replace him within our budget of £2.75 

Agree with this.

We should have a more than decent squad for the Chumps due to Farke's recent promotions helping to finance the Academy and purchases such as Gunn, Sargent and more latterly Sara and others.

Players sales have helped, but development (Omo) and retention (Aarons) of these have also been made possible by PL money. 

Even the debt accrued to sign the likes of Saintz was secured by our final parachute payment. 

Our recent PL excursions, however disappointing they have turned out to be, have underwritten the club being able to maintain a squad of players who, imo, should have achieved more over the last two seasons.

Smith was bad, and although he has something about him, Wagner has too many question marks against him to mean that the jury should no longer be out in deciding his long-term employment by NCFC.

He has, however, done enough to earn a crack at the play-offs, something I wouldn't have thought possible to say a month or so back.

Ultimate success this season would be a miracle, but would create a dilemna, but suspect that even then Knapper could have already made his decision re: Wagner's limitations and quirks. 

 

Edited February 13 by BroadstairsR

[Capt. Pants 4,282]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

For me the recent upturn in form only made me question DW more. When our players turn up you can see we are actually a good side who ought to be comfortably playoffs and above. But a manager more streaky than bacon whose inept tactics and substitutions regularly undermine us is one of the reasons we have been frustrating to watch all season. The only problem is I can’t see who would want to come in and replace him within our budget of £2.75 

Your last sentence might also explain why he is, or why he might still be in the job here. 

Wagner seems happy to just roll along with his 12 mth contract. I'm sure we'd have no difficulty in finding an out of work manager to do just that as well.  But is that actually progress? 

Another point is that had Wagner been sacked when we were bottom half and replaced by a Head Coach who now takes us to 2 pts from the play-offs we would have viewed that as progress? I guess Wagner should be praised in the same way.

It's very muddied waters and I can't see any change until the end of the season and if we finish 7th on Goal Difference it doesn't necessarily become clearer either!

[BigFish 1,988]

3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

For me the recent upturn in form only made me question DW more. When our players turn up you can see we are actually a good side who ought to be comfortably playoffs and above. But a manager more streaky than bacon whose inept tactics and substitutions regularly undermine us is one of the reasons we have been frustrating to watch all season. The only problem is I can’t see who would want to come in and replace him within our budget of £2.75 

Except of course for the inconvenient fact that when those players are all fit the team's form is more than adequate to make the play-offs. The implication is that the way Wagner sets the team up is also fine for positions 4 to 6 and the criticism of the tactics is overblown. This season was always going to be tough because the 3 teams who came down are of a much higher quality than usual.

Edited February 13 by BigFish

[sgncfc 1,259]

I think there's a bit of a similar situation at West Ham. Lots of their fans want Moyes out, not just because they think they're under achieving but because of the style of football. Their 6-0 at home to Arsenal was humbling - a bit like our 6-2 at Plymouth. Results like that emphasise that whatever the trend of results, you're not competing at the top end.

As for us, we have yet to convince even though we have had a fully fit squad, at least we did have until Rowe's injury. Our tactics are still questionable; we still play square pegs in round holes; we don't elevate our academy players; we still don't have a midfield enforcer; we still expose our fullbacks every game. We play every game on the edge of a precipice - as likely to lose 5-0 as to win 2-1. Some of that can only be addressed by a change of coaching team.

[hogesar 9,754]

6 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I think there's a bit of a similar situation at West Ham. Lots of their fans want Moyes out, not just because they think they're under achieving but because of the style of football. Their 6-0 at home to Arsenal was humbling - a bit like our 6-2 at Plymouth. Results like that emphasise that whatever the trend of results, you're not competing at the top end.

As for us, we have yet to convince even though we have had a fully fit squad, at least we did have until Rowe's injury. Our tactics are still questionable; we still play square pegs in round holes; we don't elevate our academy players; we still don't have a midfield enforcer; we still expose our fullbacks every game. We play every game on the edge of a precipice - as likely to lose 5-0 as to win 2-1. Some of that can only be addressed by a change of coaching team.

I think this is a ridiculously harsh judgement on Wagner when he has to cope with fan's calling him to be sacked every time we fail to win a game, even though our last 15 games including a run against the top teams has produced good results.

So if he doesn't win a game there's calls for him to be sacked but at the same time he's expected to introduce young players who've never played a minute at this level. You don't generally speaking, get both. Even with the likes of Farke who was excellent at improving young players, a lot of them only got minutes because we didn't have alternate championship-standard options after injuries.

[sgncfc 1,259]

Just now, hogesar said:

I think this is a ridiculously harsh judgement on Wagner when he has to cope with fan's calling him to be sacked every time we fail to win a game, even though our last 15 games including a run against the top teams has produced good results.

So if he doesn't win a game there's calls for him to be sacked but at the same time he's expected to introduce young players who've never played a minute at this level. You don't generally speaking, get both. Even with the likes of Farke who was excellent at improving young players, a lot of them only got minutes because we didn't have alternate championship-standard options after injuries.

So I assume you're happy with two goalkeepers on the bench - I'm not. But that was just one of the points made, and probably the lesser of them. This coaching team won't be successful. Logically, it can't be, because there are too many things they don't do very well and eventually our best players will not be able to bale them out by doing something outstanding. At some point that will have to be addressed. We are a mid table team and will stay that way with Wagner. Just like West Ham will with Moyes. Some people want more than that.

[shefcanary 2,465]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think this is a ridiculously harsh judgement on Wagner when he has to cope with fan's calling him to be sacked every time we fail to win a game, even though our last 15 games including a run against the top teams has produced good results.

So if he doesn't win a game there's calls for him to be sacked but at the same time he's expected to introduce young players who've never played a minute at this level. You don't generally speaking, get both. Even with the likes of Farke who was excellent at improving young players, a lot of them only got minutes because we didn't have alternate championship-standard options after injuries.

I'm of the mind for him to be sacked irrespective of results, even when winning it is not convincing. We are frankly not progressing, at best just sneaking ahead of other failing clubs.

Our academy players do not get a proper introduction, are either played in an inappropriate position or are tried then dumped.

We buy potential cover for Sarge, and he is not brought on when Sarge is rested part way through a game.

Substitutions are pre-ordained, there will always be some at 60 minutes no matter the game state, and indeed no reference to the game state is made in those subs - they were just going to happen (he got lucky with Coventry IMO and, yes I know you will come back at me, but it won't change my view so if you are going to pull me up, save time and choose something else). In this way, there is no sense of there being a proper coach observing what is actually happening on the pitch from the touchline during the game. 

He hides behind injuries in the squad without progressing younger players effectively through the system.

He has favourites who he keeps playing, where there seems to be little justification from their performances for him to do so. Indeed having found a position by chance that best suits certain players (much to my joy), he then ditches that approach to resort to what he deems is needed for a specific opposition rather than build on the strengths he has just found.  

His biggest failing is that when injuries to key players are suffered he continues to play to the same tactical pattern irrespective of the skills and competencies of the players he has available. The definition of insanity, yes it surely is driving me mad. 

A whole litany of reasons why I believe he has to go. I recognise he is here to the end of the season (so again don't come back at me on this), at one point I thought the derby match might prove a turning point for the Board, but now that will probably be a last hoorah for him given their fall from grace as he sees out the season.

And if the season ends in promotion via the play-offs then by all means dig up this post and make a fool of me. It ain't going to happen.

 

[repman 635]

45 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think this is a ridiculously harsh judgement on Wagner when he has to cope with fan's calling him to be sacked every time we fail to win a game, even though our last 15 games including a run against the top teams has produced good results.

So if he doesn't win a game there's calls for him to be sacked but at the same time he's expected to introduce young players who've never played a minute at this level. You don't generally speaking, get both. Even with the likes of Farke who was excellent at improving young players, a lot of them only got minutes because we didn't have alternate championship-standard options after injuries.

I mean this is partly down to him too, over the summer he wanted experienced players in and got them. If you're going to load the squad up with those sorts of players your window of opportunity is much shorter so of course fans are going to be on his back more. 

Had the squad been filled with young players and it was communicated to the fans they would've been more patient.

[TheGunnShow 6,017]

38 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

So I assume you're happy with two goalkeepers on the bench - I'm not. But that was just one of the points made, and probably the lesser of them. This coaching team won't be successful. Logically, it can't be, because there are too many things they don't do very well and eventually our best players will not be able to bale them out by doing something outstanding. At some point that will have to be addressed. We are a mid table team and will stay that way with Wagner. Just like West Ham will with Moyes. Some people want more than that.

Weren't the cases with two goalies on the bench explained via a late injury and and the third keeper was put on as he'd been part of the warm-up, or something like that?

[nu_matik 167]

22 hours ago, crab man said:

The fanbase will never be in agreement regardless of which manager we have... There were those who wanted to give Dean Smith more time.
Given the injuries we've had this season, Wagner is doing okay and we are now moving in the right direction . 

Unless there is someone better available it makes no sense to change, so lets see where we are in the summer. 
 

It is a success.  Some fans forget that it often takes clubs like ours (as we are now financially) quite some time to readjust after thorough relegations, to get back to dominating. 

Few have enjoyed this season overall, but to finish top 6 with all that's gone on would be nothing other than a success 

[Capt. Pants 4,282]

Very few fans definitely want Wagner here next season. They might think of reasons why he should be, but that's not the same as full on support and getting behind Wagnerball. 

It won't be the first time we've had this situation possibly, but when you have this type of undercurrent it's really difficult to get behind the club and team and you really need that to build and grow.

Come the summer we're going to need a plan or story from Knapper that we can all get behind.

[hogesar 9,754]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

I'm of the mind for him to be sacked irrespective of results, even when winning it is not convincing. We are frankly not progressing, at best just sneaking ahead of other failing clubs.

Our academy players do not get a proper introduction, are either played in an inappropriate position or are tried then dumped.

We buy potential cover for Sarge, and he is not brought on when Sarge is rested part way through a game.

Substitutions are pre-ordained, there will always be some at 60 minutes no matter the game state, and indeed no reference to the game state is made in those subs - they were just going to happen (he got lucky with Coventry IMO and, yes I know you will come back at me, but it won't change my view so if you are going to pull me up, save time and choose something else). In this way, there is no sense of there being a proper coach observing what is actually happening on the pitch from the touchline during the game. 

He hides behind injuries in the squad without progressing younger players effectively through the system.

He has favourites who he keeps playing, where there seems to be little justification from their performances for him to do so. Indeed having found a position by chance that best suits certain players (much to my joy), he then ditches that approach to resort to what he deems is needed for a specific opposition rather than build on the strengths he has just found.  

His biggest failing is that when injuries to key players are suffered he continues to play to the same tactical pattern irrespective of the skills and competencies of the players he has available. The definition of insanity, yes it surely is driving me mad. 

A whole litany of reasons why I believe he has to go. I recognise he is here to the end of the season (so again don't come back at me on this), at one point I thought the derby match might prove a turning point for the Board, but now that will probably be a last hoorah for him given their fall from grace as he sees out the season.

And if the season ends in promotion via the play-offs then by all means dig up this post and make a fool of me. It ain't going to happen.

 

There's bits I agree with, but it would be boring to talk about them so let's highlight the bits I don't 😄 

We bought cover for Sarge less than a couple weeks ago. That he didn't come on vs QPR is the standard fan criticism of managers not playing new players. It happened with Farke on numerous occasions. The difference is, they have access to the medical team and coaching team. They know how he's settling in or not, they know how ready he is. They know the benefits vs negatives in bringing him on if he's not ready, him having a stinker and then being labelled a failure by fans already. - all for the sake of another week or two of prep work. 

Every manager has favourites. It's typically players they trust. This isn't a reason to sack him because the next manager will also have favourites. There's not a manager in history who hasn't been accused of exactly that.

The rest is relatively fair game but contextually he has mitigating factors. Our worst run coincided with a weird-fan-focus on Webber for ruining another season (I note that now that he's gone, this argument has somewhat changed into us having built yet another competitive championship side under him, but they're just being misused) alongside a new Sporting Director being announced and coming in. This is Wagners job, I'm hardly surprised under that sort of pressure he didn't think it was a good time to bring in young players - who by the way - would have been impacted by a hugely negative Carrow Road crowd at the time, who were starting to boo at 0-0, 8 minutes into a home game. 

 

[shefcanary 2,465]

 

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We bought cover for Sarge less than a couple weeks ago. That he didn't come on vs QPR is the standard fan criticism of managers not playing new players. It happened with Farke on numerous occasions. The difference is, they have access to the medical team and coaching team. They know how he's settling in or not, they know how ready he is. They know the benefits vs negatives in bringing him on if he's not ready, him having a stinker and then being labelled a failure by fans already. - all for the sake of another week or two of prep work. 

I may be combining two of my points but bear with me. Why name him on the bench at all if he had no intention of bringing him on, he would have got just the same experience being with the team and sitting with the coaching team during the match would have offered plenty more insights of what they want of him. Instead, give the place to an U21 who might just be fit enough to last 20 minutes and would benefit with the experience. That block and snub of the academy players again. A missed opportunity of which there have been shedloads.

[nu_matik 167]

15 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Very few fans definitely want Wagner here next season. They might think of reasons why he should be, but that's not the same as full on support and getting behind Wagnerball. 

It won't be the first time we've had this situation possibly, but when you have this type of undercurrent it's really difficult to get behind the club and team and you really need that to build and grow.

Come the summer we're going to need a plan or story from Knapper that we can all get behind.

I'd quite welcome a young manager (yes sadly in the vein of McKenna) who favours attacking but possession based football.

I quite like Wagner in many ways but he really isn't the guy who is going to bring us the success and style the fans clearly want.

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

I accept DW is a nice guy doing his best. He deserves to be given a shot at getting to the play-offs (although it's frustrating to watch some rather odd coaching decisions being made!). He may scrape to position #6, however I doubt he'd be allowed to coach Norwich in the top league should a proverbial miracle happen.

Either way, a talented young coach like Carlos Cuesta at Arsenal is probably being lined up for next season... 

[Conrad 178]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

 

I may be combining two of my points but bear with me. Why name him on the bench at all if he had no intention of bringing him on, he would have got just the same experience being with the team and sitting with the coaching team during the match would have offered plenty more insights of what they want of him. Instead, give the place to an U21 who might just be fit enough to last 20 minutes and would benefit with the experience. That block and snub of the academy players again. A missed opportunity of which there have been shedloads.

Also, why bring him on against Coventry but not QPR? 

[Robert N. LiM 4,501]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

There's bits I agree with, but it would be boring to talk about them so let's highlight the bits I don't 😄 

Aha, a one-sentence explanation of why 'it's quieter on here when we win'.

As Tolstoy said, "All happy Pink'un posters are alike; each unhappy Pink'un poster is unhappy in his or her own way."

[king canary 7,679]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Aha, a one-sentence explanation of why 'it's quieter on here when we win'.

As Tolstoy said, "All happy Pink'un posters are alike; each unhappy Pink'un poster is unhappy in his or her own way."

I believe it was Dostoyevsky who said 'whaat they dooooin in traynun Neyul?'

[Robert N. LiM 4,501]

34 minutes ago, king canary said:

I believe it was Dostoyevsky who said 'whaat they dooooin in traynun Neyul?'

Haha. But don't get @Yobocop started on Dostoevsky ...