Is that Tony Springett off then?

[Capt. Pants 4,261]

55 minutes ago, Big O said:

I think some of that is down to the muddled thinking of the club in the last few years on progression.

its clear to me that fisher and springett have good potential but both need regular games to acclimatise to senior football. Fisher in particular we have taken from non league football and asked him to make a massive step up, he should be out on loan getting 15-20 games in the second half of the season (as should springett).

Idah should be a warning to them all, huge potential at 18 and only now at 23 - 5 full years later has he got anything like a string of consecutive appearances. He already is starting to look a better player for it.

I do agree slating the players is wrong, I hope they all grow and become great Norwich players but our pathways have to be cleared back up and these players sheep dipped and developed with some thought! 

 

Indeed, and I think you can probably include Idah in that as a loan years ago would likely been beneficial. Then you also have Tzolis a clearly talented player but the club seems clueless what to do with him.

Hopefully Knapper will clear the pathways to progression for our young players but that of course picking the right ones in the first place. 

As fans in our frustration to see something good happen this season we seem to be lashing out at everybody and everything at the moment. I get it, and I'm part of it, but the club needs to realise this and think this is not right, something has to change.

[mrdi 373]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Far better than our 2nd top scorer without starting or playing every game?

Thankfully the Barclay has decided instead of booing Idah they'll sing his name and that's been a refreshing change. The fact that the prior happened is part of why every team that comes to Carrow Road criticises our home support and rightly so, because it's terrible and doesn't even begin to get behind the team, but it is what it is.

My point wasn't about giving him pelters, it was that he should no longer be considered one of the 'promising youth' in the way Springett & Fisher are. Idah should be regarded as a senior member of the squad (albeit at the younger end), given his relative experience and international status. 

And yes, he should be better - his all-round play, his apparent understanding & anticipation, his finishing, etc. I want him to succeed, be the player his promise and the club's faith in him primed us all to believe he could be. It's okay to be frustrated when dithers around and fails to meet a cross in front of an open goal; or seems to reluctant to press a CB with flippers for feet, or sidefoots a chance at backpass pace straight at a keeper as though his own feet are made out of sugar. 

Sure, he's 2nd top scorer - fine - arguably he's been our only fit striker for a sizeable percentage of the season so in that respect, some goal return is the least I'd expect from him. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

9 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Indeed, and I think you can probably include Idah in that as a loan years ago would likely been beneficial. Then you also have Tzolis a clearly talented player but the club seems clueless what to do with him

The Idah mismanagement is valid, however the club presumably loaned Tzolis to Twente in the hope that he'd find some form and confidence in a league which is less physical and has plenty of relatively weak opposition and he struggled.

He looked out of shape at Twente, the club can't do the running on the treadmill and kick the ball for him. What more could the club do for Tzolis than find him a good loan at a famous club in a decent league? We did for Tzolis exactly what we are saying we should do for Idah.

[Capt. Pants 4,261]

3 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

The Idah mismanagement is valid, however the club presumably loaned Tzolis to Twente in the hope that he'd find some form and confidence in a league which is less physical and has plenty of relatively weak opposition and he struggled.

He looked out of shape at Twente, the club can't do the running on the treadmill and kick the ball for him. What more could the club do for Tzolis than find him a good loan at a famous club in a decent league? We did for Tzolis exactly what we are saying we should do for Idah.

Agreed, but that goes back to my point about picking the right ones in the first place. Tzolis cost us a fairly tidy transfer fee, but on the face of it doesn't want to put in the hard yards. A young player might not be fully developed technically, but at least they should be willing to run.

 

[Google Bot 3,296]

31 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

What more could the club do for Tzolis than find him a good loan at a famous club in a decent league?

The other option was to put faith into a player to raise their moral, part of good management is spotting the potential and what needs to be done to fulfil it.   He was clearly very low here and needed some belief put into him.

There's no right or wrong choice really, it's all down to opinions I feel.

[shefcanary 2,435]

For us oldies ...

On the positive, how long did Jeremy Goss hang around on the fringes before he blossomed and hit the headlines?

On the negative, how many players like Daryl Sutch have hung around for aeons without ever quite making it?

The current crop of youngsters could go either way.

[mrdi 373]

12 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

For us oldies ...

On the positive, how long did Jeremy Goss hang around on the fringes before he blossomed and hit the headlines?

On the negative, how many players like Daryl Sutch have hung around for aeons without ever quite making it?

The current crop of youngsters could go either way.

Ruel Fox was another IIRC. 

It was obviously a very different time though; I'd imagine scouting networks weren't such a 'thing' back then so clubs were less likely to snap up younger players on the fringes of the first team (or move players on) - so players like Goss & Fox end up having a far longer run than they'd be afforded these days. 

I do wonder if Idah will have a similar career here to Robert Rosario (who I think initially broke through around 1982?) - a long stint, chip in with a few goals each season, without ever really establishing himself as a true first choice, get some stick, be regarded in years to come as some kind of 'cult hero'. 

[Ulfotto 640]

47 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

For us oldies ...

On the positive, how long did Jeremy Goss hang around on the fringes before he blossomed and hit the headlines?

On the negative, how many players like Daryl Sutch have hung around for aeons without ever quite making it?

The current crop of youngsters could go either way.

I agree in part about Sutch but you can’t say he didn’t make it when he played over 300 games and is in the hall of fame. I agree though he was the ultimate 6 out of ten man and you would struggle to pick anything memorable about his 300 career games for us. Then in what was his last appearance for us he had a chance to change all that with a penalty in the playoffs and he missed. Which remains the only memorable thing he did at the club and probably makes him one of the most Norwich players of all time.

Sometimes young players it all comes down to timing the Bellamy, Green generation all got appearances as the team was bankrupt at the time meaning  players like Coote, Broughton, Che Wilson all got a decent crack at the team whereas if we would have been in a different place they wouldn’t have got a sniff.

As for Jeremy Goss that is an odd career isn’t it. 

Edited January 10 by Ulfotto

[Big O 225]

30 minutes ago, mrdi said:

Ruel Fox was another IIRC. 

It was obviously a very different time though; I'd imagine scouting networks weren't such a 'thing' back then so clubs were less likely to snap up younger players on the fringes of the first team (or move players on) - so players like Goss & Fox end up having a far longer run than they'd be afforded these days. 

I do wonder if Idah will have a similar career here to Robert Rosario (who I think initially broke through around 1982?) - a long stint, chip in with a few goals each season, without ever really establishing himself as a true first choice, get some stick, be regarded in years to come as some kind of 'cult hero'. 

I think also reserve team football was much more competitive than the U23’s level 

[shefcanary 2,435]

2 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

I agree in part about Sutch but you can’t say he didn’t make it when he played over 300 games and is in the hall of fame.

Crikey, I'd never have thought that much! For ever the faithful 12th man. 

Just looked up in archives. Spread over 13 seasons, 307 league, 44 cup and 1 other competition appearances. 9 goals. Wow!

Edited January 10 by shefcanary

[Dame to Blame 96]

On 06/01/2024 at 23:25, norwich canary said:

He is truly truly awful if I never see him in a norwich shirt again it will be to soon 

How would you know how he plays , your watching that sh*te up the road most weekends .

Edited January 10 by Dame to Blame

[Conrad 171]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Crikey, I'd never have thought that much! For ever the faithful 12th man. 

Just looked up in archives. Spread over 13 seasons, 307 league, 44 cup and 1 other competition appearances. 9 goals. Wow!

Don't forget that he played at a time (I think) when there was only one sub. The smaller (than now) squad sizes made it easier to get an appearance to your name, providing, of course, that you were the named substitute. 

[East Rider 551]

11 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Silly point to make. Of course he's better than me but you're judged at the level you're at. Sargent and Sara would be deemed crap if Man City had bought them. Equally, George Long would be an awesome goalkeeper for my five-a-side team.

You say it's a silly point to make then reiterate my point. He is not 'crap', and calling him that is the issue for me (and others by the look of it)

It is nasty and disrespectful towards one of our players who may not quite be up to the level we need right now, but given time here or else where could be a real asset.

 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

1 hour ago, East Rider said:

You say it's a silly point to make then reiterate my point. He is not 'crap', and calling him that is the issue for me (and others by the look of it)

It is nasty and disrespectful towards one of our players who may not quite be up to the level we need right now, but given time here or else where could be a real asset.

 

But if people think he's crap for our level, then they're correct to say that (I have no strong opinion on him as I think it's too early to tell). On this criteria there has never been a crap professional footballer - so how are people meant to describe players that aren't up to it?

[Chelm Canary 404]

On 07/01/2024 at 08:07, Terminally Yellow said:

What amazing supporters you all are. He's not up to first team standard and probably needs a loan. To call him "truly awful", "crap" and hope you "never see him in a Norwich shirt again" is more reflecting on the sort of **** level of supporter we have at this club than anything else.

Disgraceful.

Oh seriously **** off. Fans pay good money to watch the team play. 

Good luck to him but he won't be lighting up the championship anytime soon. 

We don't need this nonsense and pretending below par championship players are going to come good and that they're immune from criticism.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

12 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

But if people think he's crap for our level, then they're correct to say that (I have no strong opinion on him as I think it's too early to tell). On this criteria there has never been a crap professional footballer - so how are people meant to describe players that aren't up to it?

Happy to clarify, I believe the rules are:-

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

55 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Happy to clarify, I believe the rules are:-

I love this.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

If we want to be a club that gives youth its fair crack, we also have to remember on occasion that youth will be more inconsistent, more impetuous and by definition, more inexperienced. So I'm in line with the sentiments that we don't have to be on the backs of young players much. They'll know already that they fekked up.

Springett's been the definition of anonymous this season. Fisher's been up-and-down, but at his best is well up there. He needs to fill out a bit. McCallum's got positional issues but is dynamic, imposing, and likes to compete. Rowe's been the stand-out but we'll have to accept with his explosiveness there will always be a potential fatigue/overwork problem and I think he's best used like Okazaki in the Leicester title-winning season - let him go nuts for 60, then take him off for rest.

Edited January 11 by TheGunnShow

[Terminally Yellow 2,471]

On 10/01/2024 at 09:30, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Not many people have addressed the topic of my OP though, which isn't that Springett is rubbish. 

You responded saying you'd bet on him being out of league football in 2 years.

[kingsway 94]

Springett hasn't got the pace at his age and the talent doesn't look great either.

 

Hope I'm proved wrong but he will struggle to make it above League 2 level/

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said:

You responded saying you'd bet on him being out of league football in 2 years.

Based on what I've seen yeah, and I'm guessing that if he can't make our squad against mid-table League One opposition then we can perhaps assume that Wagner has reached the same conclusion.

But he's got a year left on his contract here and I hope that he gets a decent loan and states his case for a professional contract somewhere in 2025. 

That's just the harsh reality of football isn't it? Sink or swim. Like Spillane, Renton, Eagle and many before him. Go look through National League squads, full of former league players. Noticed that Jamar Loza is now playing in the Southern Premier for Darren Eadie's Leiston at the age of 29.

Some players are actually financially better off playing part-time for the bigger semi pro sides alongside a day job than they are playing full time for the lesser league two teams.

[Deptford Yellow 259]

On 10/01/2024 at 13:53, shefcanary said:

Crikey, I'd never have thought that much! For ever the faithful 12th man. 

Just looked up in archives. Spread over 13 seasons, 307 league, 44 cup and 1 other competition appearances. 9 goals. Wow!

And he played in goal (and kept a clean sheet!) on one occasion !

[Rottingdean canary 117]

My take on the Springett situation is that he said he wanted to stay here this season and fight for a place in the first team rather than go out on loan.  I'm guessing that Wagner has concluded he isn't ready for the first team and so should go out on loan and won't be picking him in the meantime - to encourage him to go out on loan.  That seems reasonable to me.

While I agree he generally has had little impact, I have some recollection of him playing quite well in the away match against Swansea.  I wouldn't give up on him yet.

[Newtopia 518]

On 11/01/2024 at 00:53, shefcanary said:

Crikey, I'd never have thought that much! For ever the faithful 12th man. 

Just looked up in archives. Spread over 13 seasons, 307 league, 44 cup and 1 other competition appearances. 9 goals. Wow!

I think our fans massively take Sutch for granted, I seem to recall him turning down a move  to stay with us - I think to Blackburn but it didn’t come up on the internet search

[Corbs1 90]

On 10/01/2024 at 10:30, shefcanary said:

On the negative, how many players like Daryl Sutch have hung around for aeons without ever quite making it

Sorry but have to issue with this type of thinking. I’m not sure how far you have reached in your career. I’ve not been much of a success, still a Nurse in my dotage. Sutch played over 300 games for us over year career, 4 under 21 caps for his country, a damn good career in a tough environment. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

1 hour ago, Corbs1 said:

Sorry but have to issue with this type of thinking. I’m not sure how far you have reached in your career. I’ve not been much of a success, still a Nurse in my dotage. Sutch played over 300 games for us over year career, 4 under 21 caps for his country, a damn good career in a tough environment. 

He was always used as a utility player so never fulfilled his early potential, his best position when young was probably right back.

I think he's just one of those that hung around past their usefulness and damaged their legacy a little in the process. I can remember him looking sluggish and clumsy in the second tier, think it was Bryan Hamilton era or early Worthington era. Just remember him looking really dreadful.

Russell Martin is another who probably stayed a year too long, should have departed when he lost a yard of pace and tried to turn into a centre back, allegedly burnt some bridges at the club when he finally exited which is a shame as its probably the reason he's not here and Wagner is. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

On 09/01/2024 at 21:45, DanTheMan said:

Needs a loan. It's make or break really. A player can only be "promising" for so long, he needs to start delivering.

If it is make or break, we perhaps have to call it 'break' in terms of chances of making an impact for us?

He's being used less and less at Northampton, his 20 minutes off the bench is becoming 10 mins, if he's even called upon or included in the squad. 

He's 22 in September, and a bit part player in a mid-table League One side. I'm sure he'll make some sort of living in the game, in League Two, Newport County or Cambridge United or something, or one of the professional National League sides perhaps, but he's clearly not up to standard.

 Contracted until 2026 so a loan to League Two next season perhaps?

[shefcanary 2,435]

19 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

If it is make or break, we perhaps have to call it 'break' in terms of chances of making an impact for us?

He's being used less and less at Northampton, his 20 minutes off the bench is becoming 10 mins, if he's even called upon or included in the squad. 

He's 22 in September, and a bit part player in a mid-table League One side. I'm sure he'll make some sort of living in the game, in League Two, Newport County or Cambridge United or something, or one of the professional National League sides perhaps, but he's clearly not up to standard.

 Contracted until 2026 so a loan to League Two next season perhaps?

Agreed, given he's contracted until 2026, if he's not getting minutes at a League 1 club he needs to go on loan down a division or two next season to get regular minutes to prove himself. At least we should get a loan fee for him, but does seem someone ultimately we should pass on.

[Well b back 3,234]

On 06/01/2024 at 23:25, norwich canary said:

He is truly truly awful if I never see him in a norwich shirt again it will be to soon 

He’s not as s*** as your goalkeeper who really is awful, and if you don’t go up, you can surely only blame him.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

13 minutes ago, Well b back said:

He’s not as s*** as your goalkeeper who really is awful, and if you don’t go up, you can surely only blame him.

I don't think Norwich Canary is an Ipswich fan, he posts photos which prove his visits to Carrow Road I believe? Unless I'm mistaking him for another poster.