Chris Sutton and the white flag

[Big O 225]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Chris Sutton is a clickbait journalist and nothing more so of course he's gone ridiculously over the top in his assessment.

That game in isolation isn't a problem. It is if it becomes the norm though.

Think that’s a bit harsh Hoggy, I think he is a pretty blunt journalist who clearly does verge on the purposefully provocative but I think he says a lot in this article that absolutely resonates with our fan base.

Without doubt a large proportion of us continue to have confirmation bias that is driving our frustration (I.e. we are still getting over how far we have fallen, the change of style, the reduction in quality of player) rather than being objective about our current position but even then there are some clear fundamentals lacking.

Sutton is right, the ethos of our club is to give it a go, play front foot passing football and history shows that managers that don’t adhere to this lose the fan base quickly. Wagner does not appear to be driving that approach, he’s had 50 games and there is very little sign of progression, even Russel Martin talked to the quality of some of our players but we’re clearly not better than the sum of our parts.

We’re crying out for some leadership be that from Attansio, Knapper or Wagner to set out some ambition and vision on how we are going to take the club forward, something that can make us start to believe again. The absence of this is leaving apathy and discontent. I personally think we’re wasting time but remain hopeful that Wagner will prove me wrong and knapper will in earth some brilliant young talent in January but I’ll have a £20 charity bet that with Wagner in charge for the season we will finish lower than 10th. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

We cant bemoan that fact that we, until 4 or 5 weeks ago, had the worst defensive record in the whole league and then criticise the mansger for doing something about it.

If anything he was too slow to react defensively.

The early warning signs were there in the 4-4 at Southampton and then further exposed at the shambolic Plymouth game.

He did very little to try to address that for 2 whole months, until the 1-0 vs QPR.

Maybe if we would have defended like we did yesterday after going in front at home to Leeds, we would have won that game?

I would still say however that the signing of a good CDM would still allow us to defend and attack in a game without having to go 5 at the back

[ridgeman 131]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Chris Sutton is a clickbait journalist and nothing more so of course he's gone ridiculously over the top in his assessment.

That game in isolation isn't a problem. It is if it becomes the norm though.

You perhaps forgot the fact that he is a former professional footballer who won the Premiership title when playing for Blackburn and so he is a little more than a clickbait journalist with a far deeper knowledge of the game than most on this forum

[hogesar 9,676]

1 minute ago, ridgeman said:

You perhaps forgot the fact that he is a former professional footballer who won the Premiership title when playing for Blackburn and so he is a little more than a clickbait journalist with a far deeper knowledge of the game than most on this forum

Nope, definitely didn't forget.

His focus is on clickbait journalism and going OTT, as any neutral fan will testify to if you've had to put up with him on the radio. That he's an ex-pro footballer doesn't stop him getting the strong majority of his BBC game predictions wrong, does it?

10 minutes ago, Big O said:

Think that’s a bit harsh Hoggy, I think he is a pretty blunt journalist who clearly does verge on the purposefully provocative but I think he says a lot in this article that absolutely resonates with our fan base.

He just strikes me as being desperate for a regular slot on TalkSport and to do that he'll be as provocative as possible. Again, I think in a one-off situation there's nothing wrong with what we done yesterday. Low on confidence, low on mood, knowing the fans aren't going to help at home currently, it was a solid, hard worked point. Do it every game and the fans will let their feelings known and I'll be in agreement.

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Nope, definitely didn't forget.

His focus is on clickbait journalism and going OTT, as any neutral fan will testify to if you've had to put up with him on the radio. That he's an ex-pro footballer doesn't stop him getting the strong majority of his BBC game predictions wrong, does it?

He just strikes me as being desperate for a regular slot on TalkSport and to do that he'll be as provocative as possible. Again, I think in a one-off situation there's nothing wrong with what we done yesterday. Low on confidence, low on mood, knowing the fans aren't going to help at home currently, it was a solid, hard worked point. Do it every game and the fans will let their feelings known and I'll be in agreement.

It was Mourinho that coined the phrase 'Park the bus' - At Chelsea. Needs must.

[hogesar 9,676]

22 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I've watched you having this type of argument on several threads. I generally agree with your comments.

The haters hate it seems. Any excuse to be negative, to blame Wagner, Delia - some predicting 5:0 or 6:1 hidings yesterday. They must be gutted we won a hard earned point! Perhaps they'd rather be Man Utd fans 😉

Frankly I've watched Norwich with an old ST in the old City stand (wooden seats). I've seen us languish in (old) D2 way behind our local rivals and their league and European exploits, play Man U and Chelsea in that very league and yes lift the League cup at Wembley. Even that season when we almost, almost, did a Leicester until the wheels came off at Wimbledon of all places with handful of games to go! I truly think many of our younger supporters now seem as 'plastic', good time spoilt Charlies as I've ever seen. There are several other teams you can 'support' if you only want to see them win and can't take the rough with the smooth!

After all these years what I do know is that football is a confidence sport, it will come good (and bad) but sometimes you need to just stop the rot and dig in. Wagner is here for this season and maybe more. I'm sure he wants to play attractive attacking football (after all he was supposed to be of the same Farke 'mold'). Winning teams and managers sometimes take time to click without rhyme or reason. The stars just align (Lambert with Holt, Wes and Martin) etc. Some team stability without injuries to key players and who knows? 

Yesterday was good point and proved our mettle . Now with Sarge and Hanley back we need to kick on. Confidence can return.

Seems like 1p5wich though are bottling it.

Yep agree with all of that.

I think we both wouldn't like to watch that style of football week in week out. But 2 or 3 times a season to get a result we probably wouldn't any other way? I think that's ok.

[tea total 79]

8 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

He’s absolutely spot on and some fans acceptance of this latest slide is what causes standards to drop further and further and before you know it you are Charlton and you can’t get out of league one.

It was a perfect symbol of the catastrophe that has happened at this club over the last couple of years. We need wholesale change at the very top immediately.

For me it's not about the acceptance going forward it's more about the realism of where we are now. As a team at the moment we should be giving Southampton respect. Moving forward we should be looking to stamp our authority on a game by whatever means. It's about where we are now. We could go gung ho, against teams who some fans on here have decided that we are better than, loose and find ourselves in a relegation scrap. Whether you like DW or not, whether you blame the board or the car park attendent, this is where we are at the moment as a club. To a point DW inherited a mediocre squad and he's been left to get points in the best way he knows. I'm sure if you asked him he'd rather play his own pressing game but at this moment in time his hands are tied. I'm also not suggesting that DW is the right man for the job either but a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss in my opinion. 

[Making Plans 936]

Perhaps Wagner had forgot that we scored 4 goals against Southampton away from home a few months ago by playing attacking football.

Perhaps he has lost his bottle.

The tradegy is that we had already sacrificed a possible 6 points in the previous 2 games by changing the team, following what had been an improved period for the Club.

What was the point of doing that if we were not at least going to try and beat Southampton?

But, we only went out with one intention yesterday, and that intention was to not lose the game.

 

 

[The Real Buh 3,444]

5 minutes ago, tea total said:

For me it's not about the acceptance going forward it's more about the realism of where we are now. As a team at the moment we should be giving Southampton respect. Moving forward we should be looking to stamp our authority on a game by whatever means. It's about where we are now. We could go gung ho, against teams who some fans on here have decided that we are better than, loose and find ourselves in a relegation scrap. Whether you like DW or not, whether you blame the board or the car park attendent, this is where we are at the moment as a club. To a point DW inherited a mediocre squad and he's been left to get points in the best way he knows. I'm sure if you asked him he'd rather play his own pressing game but at this moment in time his hands are tied. I'm also not suggesting that DW is the right man for the job either but a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss in my opinion. 

It’s cowardice, it’s a lack of conviction and it’s a lack of acceptable quality standards from the football manager and all of the senior management team as well. Some fans might accept it but I think those that don’t accept it will win the battle for this clubs soul.

[Virtual reality 712]

It was a setup for David Wagners interests and a better result for David Wagner than it was for Norwich City. 

[The Real Buh 3,444]

2 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

It was a setup for David Wagners interests and a better result for David Wagner than it was for Norwich City. 

Precisely

He doesn’t even have the conviction to go out playing “his football” 

[Soldier on 160]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yep agree with all of that.

I think we both wouldn't like to watch that style of football week in week out. But 2 or 3 times a season to get a result we probably wouldn't any other way? I think that's ok.

 

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yep agree with all of that.

I think we both wouldn't like to watch that style of football week in week out. But 2 or 3 times a season to get a result we probably wouldn't any other way? I think that's ok.

We are dull to watch every week and often give up possession to our opponents. Pretty far from being “the protagonists” I would argue.

[repman 635]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

Precisely

He doesn’t even have the conviction to go out playing “his football” 

At this point what evidence do we have he can even coach what has been termed 'his football' anymore? Start of the season there was promise of pressing and being 'the fittest team in the league' but it all evaporated pretty quickly.

David Wagner may want his team to play a certain way, but coaching is more than just telling players how you want them to do things.

[The Real Buh 3,444]

1 minute ago, repman said:

At this point what evidence do we have he can even coach what has been termed 'his football' anymore? Start of the season there was promise of pressing and being 'the fittest team in the league' but it all evaporated pretty quickly.

David Wagner may want his team to play a certain way, but coaching is more than just telling players how you want them to do things.

He makes it up every week, for sure.

Hes got crap players which is very much partly his fault (and Webbers of course) but he’s got no style, no definitive positions for any player. 

I feel like we are still watching pre-season and the manager has a bunch of new players he’s bedding in, especially yesterdays “attack versus defence” session.

[Ulfotto 635]

To be fair Smith did the same against Burnley away last season and we lost 1-0. 

[daly 504]

2 hours ago, ridgeman said:

I think Sutton is spot on. Knapper said that his football will be offensive and played on the front foot yesterday was totally the opposite. I appreciate it will take time to implement his methods and style of play but yesterday provided more questions than answers. It would be interesting to see who Knapper has to answer to is it Delia, Attanisio or Mrs Webber and why is Wagners style so different from what Knapper wants.

Perhaps Knapper is napping

Be upfront with what your plans are regarding NCFC

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

While he has been hyperbolic in the bit you reference I don’t think you’re being fair in the assessment of what he’s said.

You seem to have ignored his main point which to me is just what several posters have echoed around here. It’s not simply that he set up that way to get a point in that game, it’s everything that surrounds the fact he felt had to.

If we'd have "had a go" then, then how would it have been much of a difference from our plan A, especially if we use the away game against Southampton as a guide? The thing that was good here was that we actually had a plan B that nullified some of our recent problems (except for a bit more control of midfield) and generally kept a very confident, fluid Southampton side in front of our defence.

Sutton's demonstrated why he was a failure at Lincoln and hasn't gone back into FL management since. His argument, IMO, did not adequately take the following into account:

1. Southampton's exceptional form, and it did not also seem to consider the psychological states of the players within the teams.

2. That even though they lost a few players upon relegation, they were still able to keep many of their squad.

3. The myriad weaknesses recent Norwich sides have had, especially defensively. Until recently, we had the second-worst defensive record in the league. I don't think it's unreasonable for any manager to look at tightening up under those circumstances whilst sacrificing entertainment a bit.

His whole argument rested on an unwritten, overly idealistic notion that at home you should always try to get on the front foot regardless of situation. Personally, I'd rather pick the approach that's most likely to get a point or three depending on the nature of the challenges the other team pose us, and some involve trying to press them into errors, others involve hitting on the break. Wagner got it wrong for Millwall, but he got it close to right with this.

For all their probing, Southampton very rarely turned us around. They scored on one of the very few occasions they did, and even then it needed Hanley to get his feet mixed up on the clearance. Apart from that brilliant flick to set Stephens up to hit the bar, such a confident team didn't create much else.

If Sutton wants to get back on the management bandwagon then his article reveals, at least in my opinion, that he needs to learn sharpish that there are occasions where the ends justify the means regardless of idealism. This was one, and the result (and indeed the fact that they came back) IMO justifies it.

Edited January 2 by TheGunnShow

[Helsinki canary 242]

Somewhere in his post match interview Wagner said he chose to set up to win the match - yesterday he clearly set up not to lose the match - there is a distinct difference and it really smelt of Houghton tactics yesterday 

Edited January 2 by Helsinki canary

[tea total 79]

48 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

It’s cowardice, it’s a lack of conviction and it’s a lack of acceptable quality standards from the football manager and all of the senior management team as well. Some fans might accept it but I think those that don’t accept it will win the battle for this clubs soul.

I honestly understand your anger and frustration at where we are now but a little realism and how best to get us out of this mess is all I`m saying. I found it a difficult watch at times yesterday considering how we played a couple of seasons ago (and at the start of this season) but the game plan worked and we got a point against a good Championship side. It`s about playing to your strengths and getting something (preferably a win) from games. Call it what you want but if we found that defending deeper and playing on the break gave us a better chance of staying in the Premier League, if we ever got there, would you accept that? Not saying it`s right but if it works then why not? It worked for Leicester! 

 

[shefcanary 2,410]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Kyle Walkers-Peters is probably the best fullback in the league and Premier League standard. Ryan Manning probably one of the best LB's in the division. Adam Armstrong and Che Adams are both proven goalscorers at Championship level, moreso than Sarge, maybe Sargent looked so good because of our coaching?

Stuart Armstrong is one of the best midfielders in the league and was a mainstay in Southamptons Premier League survival seasons.

We nullified them because they weren't actually that incisive for all the ball they had.

 

 

On another thread, it said the XgA was still very high, despite us trying to stop this! Given the so called threat of Armstrong and Adams, you'd have thought with that stat they'd have got a bagful of goals - each! But they have not really done anything of note in goal scoring terms in recent years, both have gone right off the boil. It is so frustrating that people think they are a good set of individual players - they are not. They are just a good bunch of well coached players, playing to an identity and style and inspired by a good upcoming coach. Exactly what Norwich could be without the current Head Coach. I have been patient, but NYD's set-up ended it for me. Wagner has to go.

[tea total 79]

22 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

If we'd have "had a go" then, then how would it have been much of a difference from our plan A, especially if we use the away game against Southampton as a guide? The thing that was good here was that we actually had a plan B that nullified some of our recent problems (except for a bit more control of midfield) and generally kept a very confident, fluid Southampton side in front of our defence.

Sutton's demonstrated why he was a failure at Lincoln and hasn't gone back into FL management since. His argument, IMO, did not adequately take the following into account:

1. Southampton's exceptional form, and it did not also seem to consider the psychological states of the players within the teams.

2. That even though they lost a few players upon relegation, they were still able to keep many of their squad.

3. The myriad weaknesses recent Norwich sides have had, especially defensively. Until recently, we had the second-worst defensive record in the league. I don't think it's unreasonable for any manager to look at tightening up under those circumstances whilst sacrificing entertainment a bit.

His whole argument rested on an unwritten, overly idealistic notion that at home you should always try to get on the front foot regardless of situation. Personally, I'd rather pick the approach that's most likely to get a point or three depending on the nature of the challenges the other team pose us, and some involve trying to press them into errors, others involve hitting on the break. Wagner got it wrong for Millwall, but he got it close to right with this.

For all their probing, Southampton very rarely turned us around. They scored on one of the very few occasions they did, and even then it needed Hanley to get his feet mixed up on the clearance. Apart from that brilliant flick to set Stephens up to hit the bar, such a confident team didn't create much else.

If Sutton wants to get back on the management bandwagon then his article reveals, at least in my opinion, that he needs to learn sharpish that there are occasions where the ends justify the means regardless of idealism. This was one, and the result (and indeed the fact that they came back) IMO justifies it.

As for Sutton...He may know what needs to be done but, as Gary Neville and the like have found out, how to do it is what defines you as a manager so I would take his views with extreme caution!

[shefcanary 2,410]

23 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

For all their probing, Southampton very rarely turned us around. They scored on one of the very few occasions they did, and even then it needed Hanley to get his feet mixed up on the clearance. Apart from that brilliant flick to set Stephens up to hit the bar, such a confident team didn't create much else.

This I put down to them lacking where it really counts - see answer to Hoggy above. Southampton aren't as good as people make out. They are a very well coached group of ordinary players who play to an identity. But because we sat back and let them have the ball they still created enough openings yesterday to thrash us - they just didn't have the players capable of hurting us. Instead, we sat back and worked very hard to close down space, but it was inevitable that we would tire first and no surprise that mistakes by McLean and Hanley lead to their goal. 

Whereas, if we had gone for them, which as the home side we really should have, then I still believe we would have inflicted a defeat on them. 

It's time for Norwich to be more positive. You never know it might get the crowd to support us for a change instead of whinging. 

Positivity.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,286]

1 hour ago, ridgeman said:

You perhaps forgot the fact that he is a former professional footballer who won the Premiership title when playing for Blackburn and so he is a little more than a clickbait journalist with a far deeper knowledge of the game than most on this forum

And 100 percent still cares and supports Norwich City!

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

We didn't park the bus though. Its not an accurate reflection of our gameplan. Yes we allowed them possession but we played on the counter - it's not like the players were scared to go over the halfway line. We were looking to break.

This wasn't a Chris Hughton setup.

If Wagner went toe-to-toe and we got beat 4-0 Sutton would be calling him inept for playing like that against what was an established Premier League side a year ago.

[Indy 3,301]

3 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Everything he said is spot on but who’s to blame for where we are? It’s the collective of owners, Sporting Directors x2, Head Coach x2 and the overrated and overaged players.

There needs to be a complete clear out or it could get messy and a lot worse sadly. 

Indeed and there’s the issue I’ve been banging on about for three years! Who’s actually the leader at the top, who sets standards and who is accountable for the change in the success we had under Farke/Webber with a structured way of a plan, since the Farke sacking it’s been a total fiasco from change of ownership to managers and players! And still we don’t have a recognised leader running the club, some believe it to be MA but nothing official just a couple comments at the AGM! 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,286]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yep agree with all of that.

I think we both wouldn't like to watch that style of football week in week out. But 2 or 3 times a season to get a result we probably wouldn't any other way? I think that's ok.

Well we’ve already doubled that quota then, haven’t we.

QPR at home, Ipswich, Sunderland, Coventry away…. All games we deliberately set out to surrender possession and not get beat.

[debbie does norwich 13]

1 hour ago, Virtual reality said:

As I said on another thread, I’m happy with the result but not the method in achieving it. Norwich shouldn’t be setting up and approaching any game at home in the championship like they are playing Man City away. In fact we probably had more of the ball in the last Man City away match 

If it's the game I think it is, I was there and you are probably right (just). My 2 lasting memories of that day was Jesus making Giannoulis look like an amateur and a guy asking me if I had the time while I was walking back to the city centre. When I replied in the negative, he said "it's 5 past norwich".

Oh how I laughed!

[City Stand Ultra 41]

9 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

We didn't park the bus though. Its not an accurate reflection of our gameplan. Yes we allowed them possession but we played on the counter - it's not like the players were scared to go over the halfway line. We were looking to break.

This wasn't a Chris Hughton setup.

If Wagner went toe-to-toe and we got beat 4-0 Sutton would be calling him inept for playing like that against what was an established Premier League side a year ago.

Didnt park the bus??

We had 3 shots and they  had 17 by the time they scored 

We had 0 corners they had 10 by the time they scored

They has 72% possession and  we have 28% by time they scored

What level of statistical and actual domination do you need a team to have before you would classify it as parking the bus?

I know and yesterday was parking a fleet of buses....

 

Edited January 2 by City Stand Ultra

[Haus 259]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

He makes it up every week, for sure.

Hes got crap players which is very much partly his fault (and Webbers of course) but he’s got no style, no definitive positions for any player. 

I feel like we are still watching pre-season and the manager has a bunch of new players he’s bedding in, especially yesterdays “attack versus defence” session.

Supposedly the 4th highest wage bill in the league too.  Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

17 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

This I put down to them lacking where it really counts - see answer to Hoggy above. Southampton aren't as good as people make out. They are a very well coached group of ordinary players who play to an identity. But because we sat back and let them have the ball they still created enough openings yesterday to thrash us - they just didn't have the players capable of hurting us. Instead, we sat back and worked very hard to close down space, but it was inevitable that we would tire first and no surprise that mistakes by McLean and Hanley lead to their goal. 

Whereas, if we had gone for them, which as the home side we really should have, then I still believe we would have inflicted a defeat on them. 

It's time for Norwich to be more positive. You never know it might get the crowd to support us for a change instead of whinging. 

Positivity.

Disagree here. We kept trying to push forward against Leeds at home and look what happened - went two up, albeit not convincingly and lost 3-2. We were more organised against possibly an even better Leicester side and it took a late first-half brain-fart from Fassnacht diving in for a tackle that wasn't on to concede the penalty that put us one behind.

They didn't have the same capability to hurt us (even though they spanked Swansea 5-0 beforehand) because by making things much narrower and tighter, it really placed an absolute premium on accuracy / weight of pass, as well as speed of interplay. 21 shots and what, 4 on target? Che Adams was trying from 35 yards on two occasions as they got frustrated.

Southampton didn't look as good because with this highly circumspect set-up, we prevented them from doing so. They looked fantastic against Swansea because Swansea tried to match them.

Where the heck did this idea that the home side always has to attack come from?