Stadia development

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

1 hour ago, RobJames said:

eh ?

"better transport links "

Have you been to Brighton, or Reading. Or numerous other out of town grounds ? Where in Norfolk could a ground be built that is near to a train station ? Berney Arms. Pretty much all the buses run into the City, not cross country. So fans would have to travel in, and then back out again. How would they get from the station ?

Concerts, how much would that generate ? Like wise catering. Look at the number of pubs that are used before the game then imagine having to replicate that number in a new ground

What is evident is some don't seem to get out of the 'monkey tennis' type arguments as many, like Partridge who was being sacked, are desperate to scrabble around for some obscure benefit to counter reality.

In answer to how much income concerts generate, it's relatively little. When Take That played at Carrow Road the club provided the stadium free and I think that's the general rule. The only income the club gets is from sale of food and drink. The band gets all the income from ticket sales and merchandise. 

Norwich City spoke to other venues and ordered enough alcohol for the 2 nights of Take That and sold it in one night. Well done ladies of Norfolk! 

I've no idea what that means in terms of income but I'd guess at a profit in excess of £250k a night but that depends on the band. 

[RobJames 881]

6 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

In answer to how much income concerts generate, it's relatively little. When Take That played at Carrow Road the club provided the stadium free and I think that's the general rule. The only income the club gets is from sale of food and drink. The band gets all the income from ticket sales and merchandise. 

Norwich City spoke to other venues and ordered enough alcohol for the 2 nights of Take That and sold it in one night. Well done ladies of Norfolk! 

I've no idea what that means in terms of income but I'd guess at a profit in excess of £250k a night but that depends on the band. 

What has been overlooked is that the club is already hosting concerts, so the gain would be minimal. Much as with food/beer. The profit margin is not great and there is the fact of having to keep unsold goods for up to a fortnight whereas a pub/local food place in the City simply sells it the following days. That means the range is limited as is the sale time -possible an hour and a half at maximum.

This where those from the US have fallen on their arz. People attending sport in the UK are there for the sport not some nonsense that can pad out for the whole day, whirl gorging in a trough of processed food.

And despite, these monkey tennis' suggestions, the basic problem remains.  You are taking on a huge debt for virtually no benefit. The options being it might foul up a bit, or it might massively foul up. Let's have this discussion if City don't go up. Or re visit this discussion after another four years outside the PL.

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

32 minutes ago, RobJames said:

What has been overlooked is that the club is already hosting concerts, so the gain would be minimal. Much as with food/beer. The profit margin is not great and there is the fact of having to keep unsold goods for up to a fortnight whereas a pub/local food place in the City simply sells it the following days. That means the range is limited as is the sale time -possible an hour and a half at maximum.

This where those from the US have fallen on their arz. People attending sport in the UK are there for the sport not some nonsense that can pad out for the whole day, whirl gorging in a trough of processed food.

And despite, these monkey tennis' suggestions, the basic problem remains.  You are taking on a huge debt for virtually no benefit. The options being it might foul up a bit, or it might massively foul up. Let's have this discussion if City don't go up. Or re visit this discussion after another four years outside the PL.

You are quite right to say the gain from concerts etc would be minimal (although when you are selling alcohol in those quantities it would normally be sale or return). 

We are in a quandary. In the Premier League we could easily sell out a 45,000 stadium 8 times in a season. As has been pointed out, we don't need 27,000 seats in the Championship. 

Then we have to consider the possibility of a European Super League which would eventually change everything. 

Before the rise in interest rates and increase in building costs the projection was that if a new stand was financed completely with borrowing we would need to sell 90% of the extra seats over 20 years to pay back the loan. Those figures are now in a bin in the corner of the room. 

I would urge everyone to write to their MP, District Councillor and Norwich City Council and ask them about the possibility of a tidal barrier at Yarmouth and/or flood plains between Yarmouth and Norwich. Simply burying our heads in the sand and denying it's going to happen isn't good enough. 

My view is that we don't spend any money until the flood problem is sorted and in the unlikely event that we become an established Premier League club. Sad to say it but I doubt either will happen. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[Greavsy 2,415]

My understanding is with the concerts the club rents the stadium to the promoters and therefore other than the income from the rent, they get nothing from the mech or food / drink sales. 

 Also works that if if flops they have no exposure to any shortfalls etc. 

I guess for a larger stadium the rent would be higher. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Greavsy

[Sheva 123]

I’ve always thought Norwich City have the lowest level pitch in the country, just 1 meter above sea level! (either Oldham or WBA being  the highest), so yes future flooding could be a major problem.

 I would still expand to 40,000 🤭

 

[Nuff Said 5,146]

On 28/12/2023 at 16:34, Naturalcynic said:

They missed the ideal time for redevelopment of the City Stand when the ground was empty due to the pandemic.  Accepting that lockdowns and empty stadia are unlikely to happen again, it’s surely better to do it when crowds are a bit lower as there’s more chance of being able to relocate everyone from the City Stand to other parts of the ground while the work is being done.

That’s right. Given the massive benefit of hindsight, it would have been the obvious time to do it. Apart from the length of time required to actually plan, schedule and carry out enormous projects like this would be. And the need to be able to see into the future to know what was going to happen with the pandemic. 
 

Jeez, we get some dumb posts on here, but you’re really going for it with this one.

[Naturalcynic 632]

13 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

That’s right. Given the massive benefit of hindsight, it would have been the obvious time to do it. Apart from the length of time required to actually plan, schedule and carry out enormous projects like this would be. And the need to be able to see into the future to know what was going to happen with the pandemic. 
 

Jeez, we get some dumb posts on here, but you’re really going for it with this one.

Thank you so much.  That said, if plans had already been drawn up and permissions applied for etc in case an opportune time occurred, then perhaps it wouldn’t have seemed so dumb.

[Canary73 160]

21 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Please,  for the love of God, tell me that's the horrible stand they put the away fans in that they're rebuilding. I'd give em £150M just to tear down those toilets.

https://www.cpfc.co.uk/crystal-palace-main-stand-redevelopment/

I thought away fans were put in the Arthur Waite Stand in those rickety wooden seats. The ground is going to look really odd unless they develop the other stands. 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

21 hours ago, RobJames said:

It just gets worse.

The development based on the BEST case scenario would require a subsidy every year. See the binners for the worst case - bankruptcy

As it is ultimately the lenders who would fund this, it is up to them how THEY assess the risk. Try to raise a mortgage on your analysis only, so it makes any initial analysis meaningless.

Milton Keynes has a population double that of Norwich. Why are they not filling a stadium twice the size of Carrow Road ?

 

The urban population of Milton Keynes is much the same as that of Norwich because most of Norwich's suburbs are officially  part of county seats. Norfolk's population is nigh on 1 million and can almost be classed as a "captive market" for NCFC as it's so difficult to get to other clubs of a similar level. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,392]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The urban population of Milton Keynes is much the same as that of Norwich because most of Norwich's suburbs are officially  part of county seats. Norfolk's population is nigh on 1 million and can almost be classed as a "captive market" for NCFC as it's so difficult to get to other clubs of a similar level. 

Also, MK is a completely plastic football club with no football tradition whatsoever, whereas NCFC has represented the people of Norfolk for over 120 years.

[RobJames 881]

14 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The urban population of Milton Keynes is much the same as that of Norwich because most of Norwich's suburbs are officially  part of county seats. Norfolk's population is nigh on 1 million and can almost be classed as a "captive market" for NCFC as it's so difficult to get to other clubs of a similar level. 

The supposed market has little bearing on the attendance. The binners have more than doubled their attendances in the past 2 years. Has the surrounding population doubled in those two years. Portsmouth were once selling out their ground when in the PL. they have a long history of top flight football yet no sell-out crowds Spot the connection ?

We are seeing diminishing attendances as CR. Is the cause a diminishing population ?. No. It is because what is on offer currently is not attractive to many of the 'plastics'. They follow success.  Something a club our size cannot guarantee. In fact, bar 8 or so PL clubs no others can.  Yet we are told we should get into debt for no real financial gain, but at possible  huge financial risk.

Who would go to a casino if you could not come out ahead financially, but there was a chance you might not lose ?

[East Rider 551]

1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

No! I hear you cry, Carrow Road is our spiritual home, but for me it's not the stadium I enjoyed my most memorable Norwich City moments in, from the mid seventies to maybe the mid nineties, swaying and singing in the Barclay and also the South Stand and even the River End. This was my spiritual home.

I find the stadium today fairly soulless, the lack of an atmosphere in no small way due to all seating being introduced (don't be fooled into thinking safe standing will reverse this).

So, I've waffled, how do others feel. Do people have the same feeling I had back in the good old days about the ground now? I know the football hasn't been great, I'm not using that as a stick.

Having attended the ground since a young boy in the 70s I personally would be very disappointed if we moved to an out of town location and whilst I agree regarding the soul of the ground and the old Barclay etc, it's still Carrow Road.

It's still the ground situated on the edge of a superb city centre, one we never tire of walking through, stopping at a pub or for a coffee before getting there. It's still the ground near a semi decent road network and good rail link. 

I agree it's a bit soulless now however, I suspect that's nothing to how some iron/plastic bowl near the showground or A11 might be. Return of the flags/banners and some fight on the pitch and things will improve. Would like to see the ground developed and I believe another 7-8 thousand seats could be marketed to sell. Costs and viability? God knows

 

 

[Naturalcynic 632]

13 minutes ago, RobJames said:

The supposed market has little bearing on the attendance. The binners have more than doubled their attendances in the past 2 years. Has the surrounding population doubled in those two years. Portsmouth were once selling out their ground when in the PL. they have a long history of top flight football yet no sell-out crowds Spot the connection ?

We are seeing diminishing attendances as CR. Is the cause a diminishing population ?. No. It is because what is on offer currently is not attractive to many of the 'plastics'. They follow success.  Something a club our size cannot guarantee. In fact, bar 8 or so PL clubs no others can.  Yet we are told we should get into debt for no real financial gain, but at possible  huge financial risk.

Who would go to a casino if you could not come out ahead financially, but there was a chance you might not lose ?

Should have carried on playing at Newmarket Road.  

[ricardo 7,395]

6 hours ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

I for one would certainly be calling it a day if that ever happened.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, RobJames said:

The supposed market has little bearing on the attendance. The binners have more than doubled their attendances in the past 2 years. Has the surrounding population doubled in those two years. Portsmouth were once selling out their ground when in the PL. they have a long history of top flight football yet no sell-out crowds Spot the connection ?

We are seeing diminishing attendances as CR. Is the cause a diminishing population ?. No. It is because what is on offer currently is not attractive to many of the 'plastics'. They follow success.  Something a club our size cannot guarantee. In fact, bar 8 or so PL clubs no others can.  Yet we are told we should get into debt for no real financial gain, but at possible  huge financial risk.

Who would go to a casino if you could not come out ahead financially, but there was a chance you might not lose ?

What has Ipswich, Portsmouth etc not coming close to selling out when not doing well, got to do with the fact that we have constantly been selling out for 15 years  no matter how we're doing? You are actually arguing against your own point. And, as pointed out earlier, we are still selling out of season tickets, have a waiting list and easily sell decent seats that become available. 

[shefcanary 2,410]

On 28/12/2023 at 20:28, RobJames said:

As with one other you seem to be under the delusion that we would have maximum capacity for the next 20 years. Lending against residential/commercial property is low risk as were the repayment not met the lender has a sellable 'item'. What would a lender do with a football stand if we defaulted ?

As to pissing off the City Stand STs that is ludicrous as it would be 'lesser souls' who would be moved out to accommodate them. Were we to hit a similar patch as now over the suggested 20 years we would have to increase the subsidy, liley leading to a down turn in on pitch performance leading to a decrease in attendance. Something that is played out ein so many clubs elsewhere.

But hey. We are NCFC and our history has been of top flight status, so that could never happen. The reality is that once things take a turn for the worse, fans melt away. Look down the road where a 30,000 stadium dropped to less than half capacity.

Sorry Rob, I do not see us having max capacity for those 20 to 30 years, the ball park figures for my hypothesis have a built in rounding down and a generous allocation of finance costs. I found your response fairly difficult to understand what point you are trying to make, other than the status quo. However we have heard from Attanasio already that ground development, funded by him and his colleagues (not a commercial third party lender natch) is high on his agenda, so don't continue to Bury your head in the sand, but try and consider what is possible. Although there is negativity abounding over on pitch performances, something positive could galvanise all.

[shefcanary 2,410]

On 28/12/2023 at 20:43, NewNestCarrow said:

i fear your figures are overly optimistic.

All NCFC ticket income last season was £10m, and so I really don't see how increasing capacity by 26% (7,000 seats) will increase ticket income by 40% (£4m). Or will you be hiking ticket prices?

There is no shortage of Corp hospitality at CR but, judging by the availability of most home games this season, there is certainly a shortage of customers willing to pay for it!

Naming rights of £1m p.a? i would be amazed if Jarrold or Regency paid anywhere near that. 

Thanks for at least playing the game NNC. So using your criticism, let's recalculate. So reduce the future ticket income by £1m p.a. to reflect an even more Conservative increase in ticket income, and cut naming orders by half (why, the new brand is guaranteed TV exposure as well as being prominent on the inner ring road -talk about underselling). Anyway, that £1.5m reduction in annual income reduces total capital and finance cover by c.£45m to £170m. Well that's still a capital build budget of £50 to 60m, although I have no doubt that Attanasio would look to get more cost effective financing to move that amount up. 

Do you still feel it unfeasible? Be positive!

[komakino 272]

The can has been kicked down the road so many times by the club regarding an extension/rebuild of the City Stand it is very much of a case of I'll believe it when I see it. 

The insurance on the Main Stand must have been pitiful and the 'New' City Stand belonged more to Abbey Stadium than to Carrow Road, with more than a whiff of 'Subbuteo' for those over a certain age. 

I remember on Corporate events going back nearly 25 years where the club would wheel out an ex player and they always used to come out with the line of 'Next time we get promoted, we're going to extend the City Stand'. Whether they actually believed that or not who knows, but I doubted that it would ever come to fruition. 

However, given the financial state the club is in, I'm not sure now is the right time. 

If we ever get back to the EPL, it may be worth looking at again, as I believe we could easily fill 35,000 if things are better on the pitch and higher if away fans are given are higher proportion of tickets, but it would be a bit of a gamble with much depending on the finance and ambition of the board at the time. 

[RobJames 881]

29 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Sorry Rob, I do not see us having max capacity for those 20 to 30 years, the ball park figures for my hypothesis have a built in rounding down and a generous allocation of finance costs. I found your response fairly difficult to understand what point you are trying to make, other than the status quo. However we have heard from Attanasio already that ground development, funded by him and his colleagues (not a commercial third party lender natch) is high on his agenda, so don't continue to Bury your head in the sand, but try and consider what is possible. Although there is negativity abounding over on pitch performances, something positive could galvanise all.

Yet all these wildly over optimistic delusions are based on that being the income.

A new two tier stand would generate an extra 4000 seats. Which would equate to 1/7th of our current income.... £1.8m extra. Fulhams new stand has cost £120m, so far. That is why the club has repeatedly 'kicked this into the long grass'. More so now as building costs have rocketed.

Fulham can afford to spend, as being in one of the wealthiest parts of London they can generate considerable 'premium' income from the corporate market. We cannot. It is those burying their head in the sand and believing in the magic fairy godmother who will make it all happen.  It is not about what is possible either. It is what is feasible. What makes financial sense. And the delusion that some fairy godmother from over the seas is prepared to cough up £50m odd for nothing is beyond absurdity.

[RobJames 881]

40 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Thanks for at least playing the game NNC. So using your criticism, let's recalculate. So reduce the future ticket income by £1m p.a. to reflect an even more Conservative increase in ticket income, and cut naming orders by half (why, the new brand is guaranteed TV exposure as well as being prominent on the inner ring road -talk about underselling). Anyway, that £1.5m reduction in annual income reduces total capital and finance cover by c.£45m to £170m. Well that's still a capital build budget of £50 to 60m, although I have no doubt that Attanasio would look to get more cost effective financing to move that amount up. 

Do you still feel it unfeasible? Be positive!

What on earth is that !

An extra 4000 seats does not cover the cost of redeveloping the main stand, even at your lowest cost, £50m.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by RobJames

[essex canary 497]

1 hour ago, RobJames said:

What on earth is that !

An extra 4000 seats does not cover the cost of redeveloping the main stand, even at your lowest cost, £50m.

 

 

Pity they spent £50 million more on Wages than Brentford in our last PL season. That could have solved the puzzle.

 

[River End Rocker 45]

I worked at the club about 12 years ago. At the time, the club were exploring installing temporary seating in front of the hotel.  The idea was that this would create enough seats to house the season ticket holders and away fans whilst the City Stand was being rebuilt.  Our large season ticket numbers and the requirements for a set number of away tickets, is a problem for any redevelopment.  Ultimately they pulled the plan because they preferred the business case for the scoreboard that was ultimately installed and brings advertising revenue.  

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Thanks for at least playing the game NNC. So using your criticism, let's recalculate. So reduce the future ticket income by £1m p.a. to reflect an even more Conservative increase in ticket income, and cut naming orders by half (why, the new brand is guaranteed TV exposure as well as being prominent on the inner ring road -talk about underselling). Anyway, that £1.5m reduction in annual income reduces total capital and finance cover by c.£45m to £170m. Well that's still a capital build budget of £50 to 60m, although I have no doubt that Attanasio would look to get more cost effective financing to move that amount up. 

Do you still feel it unfeasible? Be positive!

Sorry but those figures just don't work. At the moment 25,000 people pay £10m. That's £400 each. Even if an extra 5,000 tickets were sold it would bring in £2m a year or £50m over 25 years.

That doesn't even cover the capital costs and assumes we could sell 5,000 extra seats for every match for 25 years. 

Naming rights are worth around £50/£100k a season. 

The main issues remain flooding, the European Super League and continued Championship football. Build it and they won't come is the phrase that springs to mind. @RobJamesis right. It doesn't make commercial sense. 

[RobJames 881]

The last figure I heard was £1.8m - 4000 extra seats.

Borrow £50m at 8% and you cover the interest, only.

If there is this demand, why are there so many empty seats ? They weren't there in the PL. What will be the demand after a couple of more years in the Championship ?

 

 

[Greavsy 2,415]

1 hour ago, essex canary said:

Pity they spent £50 million more on Wages than Brentford in our last PL season. That could have solved the puzzle.

 

Give.it.a.rest. 

[TIL 1010 4,750]

4 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

Give.it.a.rest. 

In fairness he forgot to mention the figure of £118 million which does surprise me as he has trotted it out whenever the Brentford stick gets waved around.

[BigFish 1,988]

On 29/12/2023 at 16:44, Sheva said:

I’ve always thought Norwich City have the lowest level pitch in the country, just 1 meter above sea level! (either Oldham or WBA being  the highest), so yes future flooding could be a major problem.

 I would still expand to 40,000 🤭

 

A quick google gives me CR 17 feet above sea level. Both St Mary's and the KC are lower. The whole flooding question/global warming question is purely for the tin foil hat brigade.

[RobJames 881]

On 29/12/2023 at 16:27, Greavsy said:

My understanding is with the concerts the club rents the stadium to the promoters and therefore other than the income from the rent, they get nothing from the mech or food / drink sales. 

 Also works that if if flops they have no exposure to any shortfalls etc. 

I guess for a larger stadium the rent would be higher. 

Very doubtful as that would mean the promoters having to fit and supply catering. For a one off event.

The procedure elsewhere (theatre) is usually a door split against a guarantee. 70/30 in favour of the act. With these concerts there is no danger of a flop. Drink/food sales are by the venue.  Security etc down to the venue

The point that seems to be overlooked is the seating is mostly on the pitch, not in the stands so any increased capacity is of no consequence, or point in that respect.

These concerts are rarely at the behest of the venue either, they are one of many on a tour. Even then, the numbers involved who can sell out are small.

[RobJames 881]

2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

A quick google gives me CR 17 feet above sea level. Both St Mary's and the KC are lower. The whole flooding question/global warming question is purely for the tin foil hat brigade.

You over look that is in feet, not gas or parking meters or whatever metering device he is thinking of

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,434]

At what point does the Tottenham Hotspur stadium pay back the investors? 10 years? 
 

It cost 1.2 billion. 
 

It is a venue and was part of a regeneration project. It is a wide ranging facility and venue. 

It wasn’t financed on the back of how many hot dogs they would sell at a concert. 
 

Global investors are out there. You need to put a case to them , which I know the club will do/ have done. When the ground gets regenerated it will be as a venue / facility and it will use investment money. Large quantities of it. Even if it was Anastasio fronting it it will be funded . 
 

With the greatest respect this is different league stuff that none of us truly understand as we don’t fish in those pools. 
 

If I had come on here 3 years ago and said a US pension fund was going to invest in the Binners I would have got the how many hotdogs argument. One of the next phases at Portaloo will be a ground regeneration. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Graham Paddons Beard