Stadia development

[Darth Vadis 158]

Interesting read on The Athletic about the cost of stadium development. I hadn't realised just how expensive it had gotten over the past couple of years - Crystal Palace's new 13,500 stand estimated to cost an eye-watering £150m. Suggests Attanasio and his property mate (Ressler?) will have to be bloody clever if they ever decide to sort out the City stand.

 

https://theathletic.com/5094612/2023/11/29/football-stadiums-cost-expensive/?source=user_shared_article

 

 

[Pyro Pete 1,925]

Currently, plenty of empty seats at every home game.

So no need to worry, right now.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,297]

9 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

Currently, plenty of empty seats at every home game.

So no need to worry, right now.

Whilst increasing capacity is a key driver, I don’t think development should be postponed due to the current downturn in attendances. 

We need to modernise the stadium and make  the match day experience better,  whilst also having an eye on increasing commercial revenue through non football events. 

With regard to attendances.. I’d still look to increase. 30k would be more than enough for everything Carrow Road could be used for.

 

[Monty13 2,254]

3 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Whilst increasing capacity is a key driver, I don’t think development should be postponed due to the current downturn in attendances. 

We need to modernise the stadium and make  the match day experience better,  whilst also having an eye on increasing commercial revenue through non football events. 

With regard to attendances.. I’d still look to increase. 30k would be more than enough for everything Carrow Road could be used for.

 

100%, stadium expansion is a long term investment. Makes no sense to point at empty seats now after years and years of constant almost selling out.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Anything to get the lights off of the city stand! They are absolutely blind from where I sit if I look on that direction. At least if it was taller like the south stand it would be less like looking into the heart of the burning sun. 

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, Darth Vadis said:

Interesting read on The Athletic about the cost of stadium development. I hadn't realised just how expensive it had gotten over the past couple of years - Crystal Palace's new 13,500 stand estimated to cost an eye-watering £150m. Suggests Attanasio and his property mate (Ressler?) will have to be bloody clever if they ever decide to sort out the City stand.

 

https://theathletic.com/5094612/2023/11/29/football-stadiums-cost-expensive/?source=user_shared_article

 

 

Hey @Darth Vadis, I don't subscibe so why so much for Palace please?

I always had a £2.5k per seat figure in mind which would give £30/40m, but inflation probably makes this out of date,

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Just now, Monty13 said:

100%, stadium expansion is a long term investment. Makes no sense to point at empty seats now after years and years of constant almost selling out.

We also have a season ticket waiting list that’s almost certain to fill the extra capacity and leave some room for casuals. 

[Naturalcynic 677]

49 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

Currently, plenty of empty seats at every home game.

So no need to worry, right now.

They missed the ideal time for redevelopment of the City Stand when the ground was empty due to the pandemic.  Accepting that lockdowns and empty stadia are unlikely to happen again, it’s surely better to do it when crowds are a bit lower as there’s more chance of being able to relocate everyone from the City Stand to other parts of the ground while the work is being done.

[BroadstairsR 2,213]

Slightly reluctant to mention it at this in these delicate times of the rivalry, but the Binner story has some relevance.

Their expansions they undertook some twenty years ago led them into administration and the ongoing jibe of cheating local traders and charities.

For years since, their oversized stadium has been a millstone around their neck, with eventual relegation to L. 1. and crowds down to 12, 000. Areas closed, seats taken out and trees growing from roofs.

Now fortunes have picked up, they are getting gates of 30, 000. If little Ipswich can get that level of support, surely City could regularly count on crowds of 35, 000 or more.

Of course, it very much depends upon the team's fortunes, as the apparent depleted attendance of 18, 000 for the last home game, irrespective of season tickets sold (the number of which has been capped at 22, 000 for some time?) demonstrated.

I always thought it was a pity that the bullet wasn't bitten during lockdown, when interest rates were low and the ground was empty in any case, meaning it was a time which would have led to less disruption, if any. It was a difficult time, however, and there was no way of telling how long lockdown(s) would last, and the club lost millions in any case.

The increased availability of easier access to tickets for the younger and future support and to potential casuals like myself is always worthy of taking into account.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Capt. Pants 4,297]

If we do extend/rebuild the City Stand make sure we make it as big as possible. Doesn't really matter if it costs £40m or £50m - practically the same number once you get in the region of those sorts of levels!

The whole project will have to 'wash its face' and that's where Attanasio and his investors can really help out maximise commercial revenue. Currently the club is absolutely useless in selling empty seats.

[Unthink road 132]

A main stand rebuild would in most cases cost more than a stand of the same size, if ground conditions were similar. The infrastructure in main stand and the fact it normally is the flagship stand, mean millions more will need to be spent. 

[Monty13 2,254]

34 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Slightly reluctant to mention it at this in these delicate times of the rivalry, but the Binner story has some relevance.

Their expansions they undertook some twenty years ago led them into administration and the ongoing jibe of cheating local traders and charities.

For years since, their oversized stadium has been a millstone around their neck, with eventual relegation to L. 1. and crowds down to 12, 000. Areas closed, seats taken out and trees growing from roofs.

Now fortunes have picked up, they are getting gates of 30, 000. If little Ipswich can get that level of support, surely City could regularly count on crowds of 35, 000 or more.

Of course, it very much depends upon the team's fortunes, as the apparent depleted attendance of 18, 000 for the last home game, irrespective of season tickets sold (the number of which has been capped at 22, 000 for some time?) demonstrated.

I always thought it was a pity that the bullet wasn't bitten during lockdown, when interest rates were low and the ground was empty in any case, meaning it was a time which would have led to less disruption, if any. It was a difficult time, however, and there was no way of telling how long lockdown(s) would last, and the club lost millions in any case.

The increased availability of easier access to tickets for the younger and future support and to potential casuals like myself is always worthy of taking into account.

 

 

Crowds will always wax and wain with what’s happening on the pitch, we’ve been extremely lucky to be relatively insulated from this until recently. You’ll always be capped in the good times though unless you increase. It’s pretty clear we could have been getting larger crowds at points in the last 10 or so years.

The thing I’d say about COVID though is materials became incredibly expensive so from that perspective large infrastructure projects lost attractiveness.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,442]

It's a little bit mischievous to suggest that plans could have been drawn up, planning application made, environmental and other concerns explored, contractors considered and chosen and the extension built all within the time we were going through the pandemic. Also the fact that there were severe supply chain problems and rapidly rising prices of materials.

[RobJames 892]

52 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Slightly reluctant to mention it at this in these delicate times of the rivalry, but the Binner story has some relevance.

Their expansions they undertook some twenty years ago led them into administration and the ongoing jibe of cheating local traders and charities.

For years, their oversized stadium has been a millstone around their neck, with eventual relegation to L. 1. and crowds down to 12, 000. Areas closed, seats taken out and trees growing from roofs.

Now fortunes have picked up they are getting gates of 30, 000. If little Ipswich can get that level of support, surely City could regularly count on crowds of 35, 000 or more.

Of course, it very much depends upon the team's fortunes, as the apparent depleted attendance of 18, 000 for the last home game, irrespective of season tickets sold (the number of which has been capped at 22, 000 for some time?) demonstrated.

I always thought it a pity that the bullet wasn't bitten during lockdown, when interest rates were low and the ground was empty in any case, meaning it was a time which would have led to less disruption, if any. It was a difficult time, however, and there was no way of telling how long lockdown(s) would last, and the club lost millions in any case.

The increased availability of easier access to tickets for the younger and future support and to potential casuals like myself is always worthy of taking into account.

You have answered your own points. The binners current success has no connection to their ground size. And had the not have welched out of paying for those redevelopments the payments would have likely seen them in L1 far sooner.

 Check the accounts. Gate receipts and hospitality make up around 15% of our PL income. Doesn't take much t work out how much more any extra 15% increase in capacity would generate. OK, if like the binners we have no intention of paying for any new stand.

Take a look at Swansea and Cardiff. The former have dropped their plans to increase the ground capacity and Cardiff are stuck with a costly empty stand (see below). Sunderland, 40,000 capacity, with no suggestion they may return to the PL in the near future.

Gate receipts and hospitality no longer count for what they once did. It is TV money now. Whether through direct payments or via selling to the clubs in receipt of that money. How much has our academy generated ? A far higher amount pound for pound that ever any costly redevelopment would. And if we do not go up this season, does anyone seriously think ST sales will not drop off. The queue for ST's will melt away, as will the sale of casual tickets.

 

When Jonny Rowe is sold I would suggest the fee will be more than 10 years extra ticket sales (after building costs).

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by RobJames

[NewNestCarrow 203]

The Anfield Rd redevelopment at Liverpool is costing £80-£90m and there is no evidence to show that adding a second tier to our Main Stand would not be similar.

Thanks to the hordes of football tourists & Executive clients - all paying upwards of £150 for a ticket + chicken-dinner at Anfield - LFC are generating an additional £10m per season in matchday income. 

If NCFC added 7,000 new seats matchday income for the season would rise by less than £3m. 

The sums do not add up, which is why McNally/Moxey/Webber/Ward have not taken the plunge.

If the main driver for ground expansion is getting kids in, then I can't see it happening.

But if the main driver is economic, then the club can do that by increasing ticket prices.

[Pyro Pete 1,925]

1 hour ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Anything to get the lights off of the city stand! They are absolutely blind from where I sit if I look on that direction. At least if it was taller like the south stand it would be less like looking into the heart of the burning sun. 

My dad now wears a baseball cap to games, for this very reason.

Another great piece of planning by NCFC.

[Top corner 230]

59 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

They missed the ideal time for redevelopment of the City Stand when the ground was empty due to the pandemic.  Accepting that lockdowns and empty stadia are unlikely to happen again, it’s surely better to do it when crowds are a bit lower as there’s more chance of being able to relocate everyone from the City Stand to other parts of the ground while the work is being done.

If I remember correctly, didn't Webber mention that during the pandemic we lost £30 million, so not an ideal time to invest in stadium expansion.

[BroadstairsR 2,213]

20 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

The Anfield Rd redevelopment at Liverpool is costing £80-£90m and there is no evidence to show that adding a second tier to our Main Stand would not be similar.

Thanks to the hordes of football tourists & Executive clients - all paying upwards of £150 for a ticket + chicken-dinner at Anfield - LFC are generating an additional £10m per season in matchday income. 

If NCFC added 7,000 new seats matchday income for the season would rise by less than £3m. 

The sums do not add up, which is why McNally/Moxey/Webber/Ward have not taken the plunge.

If the main driver for ground expansion is getting kids in, then I can't see it happening.

But if the main driver is economic, then the club can do that by increasing ticket prices.

Add match day expenditure, and the outcome would be that this extra income should cover the interest on and part repayment of any loan (mortgage style.) 

In the meantime, we could/would benefit from the increase in number of seats, establish future support more firmly, replace an outdated structure which would need to be done eventually in any case, increased the value of fixed assets and have removed an embarrassment.

I assumed this was the kind of business expansion that Annatasio was referring to when he mentioned increase level of investment (from down under?) In fact, it is probably the kind of approach which undermined his interest in the first place. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[RobJames 892]

1 minute ago, Top corner said:

If I remember correctly, didn't Webber mention that during the pandemic we lost £30 million, so not an ideal time to invest in stadium expansion.

At the time there was np indication on how long it would last, not how long restrictions would be in place. I suspect those trying to 'fly this kite' are fuelled by a thought that the bigger ground the better the club, and so they are.

Liverpool (as above) are almost certain of European games and can offer one off expensive game packages. Does anyone seriously imagine that a home game to Rotherham is going to attract anyone in for hundreds of pounds. And the bizarre idea that the extra capacity would be used to attract kids rather ignores the fact that they pay a few quid. How is that going ro meet the building costs ?

Look down at Binland. Has the increase in kids there been down to availability of seats, or the success on the pitch ? Once success tails off so do the 'fans'. Lumbering yourself with crippling debt under the delusion you are building for the future is self evidently a foolish idea. Better to use that money to generate success on the pitch, then watch them flood in.

[ricardo 7,411]

There have been many missed opportunities in the past and I fear it is probably too late to bite the bullet. Ten years ago when this subject was discussed on the forum, I remarked that I doubted that I would live long enough to see stadium expansion. Now I'm absolutely certain that I won't.

[Greavsy 2,450]

So much hindsight in this thread.........

 

[NewNestCarrow 203]

6 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Add match day expenditure, and the outcome would be that this extra income should cover the interest on and part repayment of any loan (mortgage style.) 

I don't think so.

Borrowing £80m over 25 yrs needs annual repayments of £5.3m. 

Prioritising facilities over squad investment; didn't work out so well for R T Chase, did it?

 

[RobJames 892]

16 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Add match day expenditure, and the outcome would be that this extra income should cover the interest on and part repayment of any loan (mortgage style.) 

 

Not true. At maximum price and occupancy the thought in (around) 2018 was that there would be a shortfall of a minimum £1.6m per season. The thought, however, was the repayment would remain the same but prices would increase

[Capt. Pants 4,297]

Aren't the Binners planning stadium expansion as well?

I think you need to be a bit careful about increasing ticket prices to increase revenue. Ours are already one of the highest in the country. There's only so far you can push people before they say enough is enough.

[Number9 272]

Very difficult to compare between cities like London, Liverpool and Norwich. 

It costs less to purchase the site here, sort out issues like Carrow Road, and lots less to pay contractors, buy concrete etc etc.

 

 

 

[RobJames 892]

3 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Aren't the Binners planning stadium expansion as well?

I think you need to be a bit careful about increasing ticket prices to increase revenue. Ours are already one of the highest in the country. There's only so far you can push people before they say enough is enough.

The idea is you use price to regulate demand, rather than just up the price.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,077]

56 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

The Anfield Rd redevelopment at Liverpool is costing £80-£90m and there is no evidence to show that adding a second tier to our Main Stand would not be similar.

Thanks to the hordes of football tourists & Executive clients - all paying upwards of £150 for a ticket + chicken-dinner at Anfield - LFC are generating an additional £10m per season in matchday income. 

If NCFC added 7,000 new seats matchday income for the season would rise by less than £3m. 

The sums do not add up, which is why McNally/Moxey/Webber/Ward have not taken the plunge.

If the main driver for ground expansion is getting kids in, then I can't see it happening.

But if the main driver is economic, then the club can do that by increasing ticket prices.

You're absolutely right on all of this, however, the driver should not be purely short term monetary concerns. Having 30 odd thousand seats elevates the standing of the club in the national media and the international player market. I don't think it's as linear as saying "it costs X and each game you will make Y therefore the sums don't add up".

[BigFish 1,988]

16 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

So much hindsight in this thread.........

 

Not really hindsight, just magical thinking. The club never had the money, and the business case never stacked up. It is why Carrow Road looks like the way it does today with a stunted Main Stand & a hotel in the corner. Very difficult to financially engineer a building where all the seats look at a small grass rectangle & you can only fill it (maybe) 23 times a year.

[RobJames 892]

4 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

You're absolutely right on all of this, however, the driver should not be purely short term monetary concerns. Having 30 odd thousand seats elevates the standing of the club in the national media and the international player market. I don't think it's as linear as saying "it costs X and each game you will make Y therefore the sums don't add up".

What rot.

Are Sheff Weds or Derby any higher in this measures you quote, than Brentford or Bournemouth ? And the lunacy continues as apparently basic balance sheet figures should be ignored. Short term monetary concerns will be what determines our playing budget next season and who we sign and who we sell - which in consequence will have a huge impact on our season. And guess what ? That is what influences the number of folk who turn up. Not the size of any stand.

[BroadstairsR 2,213]

45 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

I don't think so.

Borrowing £80m over 25 yrs needs annual repayments of £5.3m. 

Prioritising facilities over squad investment; didn't work out so well for R T Chase, did it?

 

How could we know the amount of the loan, terms of the loan or the timespan of the loan? 

You didn't say whether you included other match day income in your original calculation.

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of increased venue income from pop concerts and the like.

In the meantime, the cost of maintaining an ageing Main Stand will inevitably increase by the season.

It would seem that this debate (and there is no clear-cut answer imo) is gradually becoming one of Delia speak versus Annatasio speak.  I wonder how much the latter has borrowed in the course of making his millions.

There is risk in all business. There is risk in all business borrowing for expansion. The level of risk is determined by the mind-set of the ownership and the need to borrow within the means. 

It puzzles me that anybody would consider investing in the English game in the first place, but it is nevertheless never short of investors and both NCFC and ITFC have found this out to their advantage in recent years, as have many other clubs. Whilst more television companies continue to offer bigger amounts to screen games

 

Annatasio mentioned other investors, not donators. There must be something to be gained, even at Little Old Norwich and at even Littler Old Ipswich.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by BroadstairsR