Brighton pissing about at the back

[CANARYKING 639]

Can’t see the logic, the number of times it breaks down is ridiculous 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,731]

It looks good when it works.. But yeah it's always hard to watch even more so when it's us doing it

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,764]

Gilmour doesn't look very good...

[TIL 1010 4,750]

Nigella on BBC1 was a far better watch.

[The Real Buh 3,440]

13 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Gilmour doesn't look very good...

This must be absolutely killing him. He’s ran out of laughing reactions for the day as well.

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

4 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

This must be absolutely killing him. He’s ran out of laughing reactions for the day as well

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Ken Hairy

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,323]

Billy Gilmour sucks

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

7 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

Can’t see the logic, the number of times it breaks down is ridiculous 

Coaches have analysed matches and found that when the goalkeeper kicks the ball long his team loses possession more often than not. With Norwich City that's 80% of the time. So kicking it long is more likely to result in eventually conceding than playing out from the back. That's not an opinion, it's a fact based on statistical analysis. 

Obviously some teams are better at it than others and it's noticeable that we have been way better at it with Kenny at the back. 

There is a lot of data and analysis on the Internet 

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/37576665/why-playing-back-brought-mixed-results-premier-league-clubs

[Coneys Knee 961]

Playing out from the back is great when you’re good at it.
 

I don’t mind that we persist with it at all, it’s the only way we’ll get better at it. I do wish we’d mix things up sometimes with the odd quick throw and long kick just to lose a bit of predictability.

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

That's the issue CN, it can't be our ONLY way to play, but we sure as hell need to get quicker whilst doing it, we're too slow and ponderous with it. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

10 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

This must be absolutely killing him. He’s ran out of laughing reactions for the day as well.

Has he been banned at last? I couldn't even react when I was.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,432]

11 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Nigella on BBC1 was a far better watch.

It’s like Carry On Cooking. She was discussing what looked like a sausage roll and said she liked a “chewy end”. 
 

There were  a couple of things  that stood out . 

[hogesar 9,676]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Coaches have analysed matches and found that when the goalkeeper kicks the ball long his team loses possession more often than not. With Norwich City that's 80% of the time. So kicking it long is more likely to result in eventually conceding than playing out from the back. That's not an opinion, it's a fact based on statistical analysis. 

Obviously some teams are better at it than others and it's noticeable that we have been way better at it with Kenny at the back. 

There is a lot of data and analysis on the Internet 

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/37576665/why-playing-back-brought-mixed-results-premier-league-clubs

Exactly this Dylan.

The problem is it's harder for the everyday fan to pin a goal conceded on the fact you kicked it long - there's obviously always going to be one or two other events before that goal is conceded. When it's conceded from playing out, it's obvious so fans go "Boo, playing out, concedes goals".

It's my pet hate with the fans around me in the Barclay. I'll repeatedly bang this drum (somewhat ironically with the barclay drummer on bail or whatever).

If we play out from the back and "nearly" give it away the Barclay immediately start booing and shouting at Gunn to hit it long. They don't even understand the concept that Gunn or one of the CB's are holding on to the ball to invite the opposition to press them. It's the easiest way to create space, pass beyond the first man and you've got some space. 

Even against Sheffield Wednesday, where we created a couple of good chances from playing it out from the back, the fans around me sarcastically cheered when Gunn hit it long. What happened? Well, it came straight back at us and they had a shot (albeit a poor one). I guarantee you those fans still think they're right.

There is a fair argument that with Baath it's impossible because he can't even pass square with his weak foot. But with Duffy and Mclean it's definitely plausible. Gianoulis is also useful for this, because he has a tremendous strength in bringing the ball inside and dribbling beyond the press.

Re Brighton, it was funny listening to some old-school pundits saying "this is what happens when you play out from the back and you're not a Man City". Absolute rubbish. Brighton have been a hugely successful club playing out from the back over the past how many years? And because of one mistake they should rip all that up?

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

12 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

Can’t see the logic, the number of times it breaks down is ridiculous 

Only two sides in the Premier League to have no clean sheets this season, Brighton and Luton.

Wonder if that has got anything to do with them having a diminutive young Scottish midfielder who isn't cut out for the physical demands of his role in an elite league?

To be fair to Brighton though this is their derby game, and they were the away team, so I'm sure they'll be happy enough with a point just like we were.

[Ulfotto 635]

I think people don’t realise is that the long ball or direct football played by Pulis and initially by Graeme Taylor was routed in data. The belief was that by launching long balls forward from full back to tall centre forwards to knock on for pacy wingers to chase was routed in the statistics yes the data saying most goals are given away by mistakes in midfield and that by bypassing the centre of the pitch you are less likely to concede possession unnecessarily and therefore concede less goals.

The moral of the story I think is that all playing styles have pluses and minuses. The secret is to recruit to the style of play you want and not have square pegs in round holes.

[Pockthorpe 531]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Exactly this Dylan.

The problem is it's harder for the everyday fan to pin a goal conceded on the fact you kicked it long - there's obviously always going to be one or two other events before that goal is conceded. When it's conceded from playing out, it's obvious so fans go "Boo, playing out, concedes goals".

It's my pet hate with the fans around me in the Barclay. I'll repeatedly bang this drum (somewhat ironically with the barclay drummer on bail or whatever).

If we play out from the back and "nearly" give it away the Barclay immediately start booing and shouting at Gunn to hit it long. They don't even understand the concept that Gunn or one of the CB's are holding on to the ball to invite the opposition to press them. It's the easiest way to create space, pass beyond the first man and you've got some space. 

Even against Sheffield Wednesday, where we created a couple of good chances from playing it out from the back, the fans around me sarcastically cheered when Gunn hit it long. What happened? Well, it came straight back at us and they had a shot (albeit a poor one). I guarantee you those fans still think they're right.

There is a fair argument that with Baath it's impossible because he can't even pass square with his weak foot. But with Duffy and Mclean it's definitely plausible. Gianoulis is also useful for this, because he has a tremendous strength in bringing the ball inside and dribbling beyond the press.

Re Brighton, it was funny listening to some old-school pundits saying "this is what happens when you play out from the back and you're not a Man City". Absolute rubbish. Brighton have been a hugely successful club playing out from the back over the past how many years? And because of one mistake they should rip all that up?

People around me get seriously uptight when our defenders start rolling the ball around with their studs. I just know it’s coming !! But that’s when their strikers are more likely to move and commit. 

[Michael Starr 519]

Works really well if you have the players to do it. When most Championship sides do it, it's frightening.

[hogesar 9,676]

2 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

Works really well if you have the players to do it. When most Championship sides do it, it's frightening.

Disagree. How many goals are conceded due to it rather than scored? There's a reason nearly all progressive, good teams even at Championship level persist - because statistically it's much more likely to result positively.

[The Real Buh 3,440]

6 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Has he been banned at last? I couldn't even react when I was.

I couldn’t possibly comment on who you are referring to but if I were to randomly pontificate I’d say that the only thing sadder than hanging around on a forum of a team you have no connection to and don’t support in any way and posting is hanging around on a forum of a team you have no connection to and don’t support in any way and leaving little laughing emojis on posts of people that have “wronged you”

…At Christmas…

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

Exactly this Dylan.

The problem is it's harder for the everyday fan to pin a goal conceded on the fact you kicked it long - there's obviously always going to be one or two other events before that goal is conceded. When it's conceded from playing out, it's obvious so fans go "Boo, playing out, concedes goals".

It's my pet hate with the fans around me in the Barclay. I'll repeatedly bang this drum (somewhat ironically with the barclay drummer on bail or whatever).

If we play out from the back and "nearly" give it away the Barclay immediately start booing and shouting at Gunn to hit it long. They don't even understand the concept that Gunn or one of the CB's are holding on to the ball to invite the opposition to press them. It's the easiest way to create space, pass beyond the first man and you've got some space. 

Even against Sheffield Wednesday, where we created a couple of good chances from playing it out from the back, the fans around me sarcastically cheered when Gunn hit it long. What happened? Well, it came straight back at us and they had a shot (albeit a poor one). I guarantee you those fans still think they're right.

There is a fair argument that with Baath it's impossible because he can't even pass square with his weak foot. But with Duffy and Mclean it's definitely plausible. Gianoulis is also useful for this, because he has a tremendous strength in bringing the ball inside and dribbling beyond the press.

Re Brighton, it was funny listening to some old-school pundits saying "this is what happens when you play out from the back and you're not a Man City". Absolute rubbish. Brighton have been a hugely successful club playing out from the back over the past how many years? And because of one mistake they should rip all that up?

This is it, and I find it incredibly frustrating that playing out from the back is often met with groans from the crowd, whereas if we hoof it long, there's generally no reaction from the crowd even though that normally means we lose possession.

 

Also Krul had a spell when he was passing it directly to opposition players in/around our penalty box, I have no idea what happened to him.  But the solution was to drop him and let him go, not to stop playing it out from the back.

 

I think it makes sense for the players to understand they can go long if they have to, because they're under too much pressure so they're at risk of losing the ball at the back.  In fact, having the ability to vary it works well because a viable long ball outlet forces the other side to defend deeper and makes it easier to play it out from the back (it used to frustrate me under Farke that often the other side could tell we were never going to play it long, so their defence could push up and compress the area we were trying to play through). This could be a ball for Barnes or Sergeant to compete for in the air with someone to feed off the knock downs, or a ball behind the defence for someone like Rowe or Idah to run onto.

[Haus 259]

2 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

This is it, and I find it incredibly frustrating that playing out from the back is often met with groans from the crowd, whereas if we hoof it long, there's generally no reaction from the crowd even though that normally means we lose possession.

 

Also Krul had a spell when he was passing it directly to opposition players in/around our penalty box, I have no idea what happened to him.  But the solution was to drop him and let him go, not to stop playing it out from the back.

 

I think it makes sense for the players to understand they can go long if they have to, because they're under too much pressure so they're at risk of losing the ball at the back.  In fact, having the ability to vary it works well because a viable long ball outlet forces the other side to defend deeper and makes it easier to play it out from the back (it used to frustrate me under Farke that often the other side could tell we were never going to play it long, so their defence could push up and compress the area we were trying to play through). This could be a ball for Barnes or Sergeant to compete for in the air with someone to feed off the knock downs, or a ball behind the defence for someone like Rowe or Idah to run onto.

The issue is WHERE you lose possession though.  If we are going to lose it Id rather do that at the half way line than in our box.

Playing out from the back is fine when it is appropriate, its not always appropriate though.  When no one is open and we are under pressure, Id rather it gets hoofed long than a risky pass across our goal.

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

25 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

This is it, and I find it incredibly frustrating that playing out from the back is often met with groans from the crowd, whereas if we hoof it long, there's generally no reaction from the crowd even though that normally means we lose possession.

 

Also Krul had a spell when he was passing it directly to opposition players in/around our penalty box, I have no idea what happened to him.  But the solution was to drop him and let him go, not to stop playing it out from the back.

 

I think it makes sense for the players to understand they can go long if they have to, because they're under too much pressure so they're at risk of losing the ball at the back.  In fact, having the ability to vary it works well because a viable long ball outlet forces the other side to defend deeper and makes it easier to play it out from the back (it used to frustrate me under Farke that often the other side could tell we were never going to play it long, so their defence could push up and compress the area we were trying to play through). This could be a ball for Barnes or Sergeant to compete for in the air with someone to feed off the knock downs, or a ball behind the defence for someone like Rowe or Idah to run onto.

Good point regarding variation. It is the spice of life. The unfortunate fact is that Krul wasn't as good as Gunn with his feet. His chipped passes to Max on the touchline never ended well. 

I have printed several copies of @hogesar post and will hand them out tomorrow. If you hear a lot of f** ing and blinding in the upstairs River End tomorrow it means the f****ing bloke next to me has f***ing read it. He'll say f****ing hogesar is a f***king idiot. Then we'll hit it long and f***ing lose it.... 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[hogesar 9,676]

6 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Good point regarding variation. It is the spice of life. The unfortunate fact is that Krul wasn't as good as Gunn with his feet. His chipped passes to Max on the touchline never ended well. 

I have printed several copies of @hogesar post and will hand them out tomorrow. If you hear a lot of f** ing and blinding in the upstairs River End tomorrow it means the f****ing bloke next to me has f***ing read it. He'll say f****ing hogesar is a f***king idiot. Then we'll hit it long and f***ing lose it.... 

 

It's ok, all the f**king should merge into one with the guys around me in the barclay abusing me directly 😉

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

53 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Good point regarding variation. It is the spice of life. The unfortunate fact is that Krul wasn't as good as Gunn with his feet. His chipped passes to Max on the touchline never ended well. 

I have printed several copies of @hogesar post and will hand them out tomorrow. If you hear a lot of f** ing and blinding in the upstairs River End tomorrow it means the f****ing bloke next to me has f***ing read it. He'll say f****ing hogesar is a f***king idiot. Then we'll hit it long and f***ing lose it.... 

 

Be a change to hear something from the River End I suppose 🙂

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

1 hour ago, Haus said:

The issue is WHERE you lose possession though.  If we are going to lose it Id rather do that at the half way line than in our box.

Playing out from the back is fine when it is appropriate, its not always appropriate though.  When no one is open and we are under pressure, Id rather it gets hoofed long than a risky pass across our goal.

Where you lose possession is important, but so is how often you lose possession.  If you're hoofing it forward repeatedly with no chance of retaining possession, you're just inviting non-stop pressure because it'll be coming straight back.  

I think our approach to playing it out from the back at the moment is generally pretty sensible - it's clearly our preferred approach but the players will go long if they need to.  But we need to be more joined up so we're making sure that when we go long, we have someone to aim for (e.g. Barnes) and other players looking for the knock down or flick on, or we're playing it into space for a pacey player (e.g. not Barnes) to run onto.  It's when we're just giving it away that I find it frustrating.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

PS interesting that you can say pissing but not ip**** - fair enough I suppose.

[Robert N. LiM 4,378]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I have printed several copies of @hogesar post and will hand them out tomorrow. If you hear a lot of f** ing and blinding in the upstairs River End tomorrow it means the f****ing bloke next to me has f***ing read it. He'll say f****ing hogesar is a f***king idiot. Then we'll hit it long and f***ing lose it....

Hahaha, magnificent. Please actually do this. Print it on yellow and green paper and it can double as a pre-match display. @TIL 1010will help you hand them out, I'm sure. 😉

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

I couldn’t possibly comment on who you are referring to but if I were to randomly pontificate I’d say that the only thing sadder than hanging around on a forum of a team you have no connection to and don’t support in any way and posting is hanging around on a forum of a team you have no connection to and don’t support in any way and leaving little laughing emojis on posts of people that have “wronged you”

…At Christmas…

After praising the mods to the hilt about how sensible they are only to then get banned must be hard to swallow. But having to read that Billy Gilmour is **** and Scotland are rubbish with nothing but a laughing face to click on in response? Pray for the vein in his temple is all I can say.

[The Real Buh 3,440]

20 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Nigella on BBC1 was a far better watch.

BTW I am now watching the nigella Christmas special and it is absolute filth, proper good TV.

[hogesar 9,676]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

After praising the mods to the hilt about how sensible they are only to then get banned must be hard to swallow. But having to read that Billy Gilmour is **** and Scotland are rubbish with nothing but a laughing face to click on in response? Pray for the vein in his temple is all I can say.

The guys having a breakdown via post reactions which is just fantastic.