KNAPPER NOW STARTS NOV 13TH

[Ken Hairy 3,783]

Are people seriously using TeamTalk as a reputable source???? 🤣🤣🤣

[Nik Vawn 164]

I wonder if the thinking is that the blood of Webber will be a sufficient offering to the fans?

Would a new Sporting Director want to get to grips with what we have before deciding what needs to change?

[king canary 7,682]

14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

We do

Not according to another poster...

 

 

[Mason 47 1,404]

13 minutes ago, BigFish said:

We do

We don't. The rolling contract is a fixed-term standard 12-month contract that either renews or terminates on the employers decision. So Wagner has a maximum of 2 months remaining on his current contract.

 

[Google Bot 3,345]

7 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

So Wagner has a maximum of 2 months remaining on his current contract.

You sure it's a fixed term? 

I thought it was like Webber's where it rolls over month by month rather than a fixed 12 month term.  i.e. there's always a 12 months notice period, but never more.

[Google Bot 3,345]

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone, but Knapper spoke at his old Uni last year, which was uploaded to youtube:

It seems to be the only real footage i've seen of him, was curious to gauge what kind of character he is.

Seems a good sort to me, seems very young though hopefully he has a similar level of confidence and belief that Webber brought, minus the ego.

[Mason 47 1,404]

7 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

You sure it's a fixed term? 

I thought it was like Webber's where it rolls over month by month rather than a fixed 12 month term.  i.e. there's always a 12 months notice period, but never more.

I mean I'm not partial to the actual paperwork that was signed, but a 'rolling 12-month contract' is as I've described. This is the only way Wagners deal has been described. 

If it was indefinite month-to-month, it would have to be called as such. And in that case the notice period being 12 months would be quite a bizarre stipulation. 

In fairness, I'm no lawyer so I'm happy to be put back in my box if wrong. But I'm reasonably confident- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, to guarantee someone a years salary regardless of performance.

[Google Bot 3,345]

13 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

it doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, to guarantee someone a years salary regardless of performance.

Of course it does, because the alternative is to offer someone 2-3+ years.  You've never got to pay more than 12 months, and they can't walk out of the club leaving you in the **** mid-season either.

The only time a fixed 12 month rolling contract would make sense is if we brought him in summer and it matched up to a complete season.  To have a coaches contract expiring bang in the middle of the season would be nuts. 

Imagine the flip if we were top 2, Saints sacked Martin and took Wagner with no compensation, mid-season.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Google Bot

[Mark .Y. 352]

35 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

You sure it's a fixed term? 

I thought it was like Webber's where it rolls over month by month rather than a fixed 12 month term.  i.e. there's always a 12 months notice period, but never more.

That is how I understood it to be

[......and Smith must score. 1,365]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone, but Knapper spoke at his old Uni last year, which was uploaded to youtube:

It seems to be the only real footage i've seen of him, was curious to gauge what kind of character he is.

Seems a good sort to me, seems very young though hopefully he has a similar level of confidence and belief that Webber brought, minus the ego.

There’s a You Tube video on Page 5 of a thread ‘ Ben Knapper  - New Sporting Director ‘  put up about a month ago by Capt Pants. The thread has slipped down to Page 5 now. 

Full of management speak but might be worth a look.

[shefcanary 2,502]

Sorry Mason 47, but I'm with the rolling 12 month contract being you always have 12 months notice whatever. Managers nearing the end of their working life love them. 

[essex canary 511]

47 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Sorry Mason 47, but I'm with the rolling 12 month contract being you always have 12 months notice whatever. Managers nearing the end of their working life love them. 

Probably that's why Moxey walked away with more compensation than salary.

[Ken Hairy 3,783]

Surprised there's such confusion over the contract, I'd have thought 'rolling' is self explanatory. He's always got 12 months on it,  so today it runs to 7.11.24 tomorrow it runs to 8.11.24 etc etc sonit doesn't matter when he's dismissed we have to pay him 12 months wage, unless there's a specific clause stating otherwise (which I doubt).

[Mason 47 1,404]

Perhaps I shouldn't believe all I read on the Internet!

In any case I'll post below the relevant text from the explanation I was going off of-

'The 12 Month Fixed-term Contract is well understood by most people to be one that ends automatically when the season ends but many are confused when the word “Rolling” is included. Many users of social media have said that they interpret a 12 Month Rolling Contract to be a standard Indefinite-term contract as defined in the first section above and the notice period for either party is 12 months, rather than a more normal 30 days.

However, this is not the case: a 12 Month Rolling Contract is a 12 Month Fixed-term Contract, as defined in the second section above, that includes clauses under which each party can ask the other to renew it, or “roll it over”; either party can decide not to renew and there is no obligation on either side to pay compensation in such a case.

Thus, a typical Fixed-term Rolling Contract will normally include a date at which both parties should indicate whether they wish the contract to roll over at the termination date; this will often be set some months earlier than termination rather than being something like 30 days and allows each party sufficient time to find alternative employment or employees.
There is no limitation to what clauses can be added to such fixed-term rolling contracts and it is perfectly possible to add events such as promotion or relegation to the rollover decision.'

As I said, I'm no expert. Apologies if I've utterly biffed it.

 

[Google Bot 3,345]

14 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

As I said, I'm no expert. Apologies if I've utterly biffed it.

I think if this was the case and he only had 2 months left the pinkun, radio norfolk, and such outlets would be mentioning it during press conferences and post match interviews.

However, I did just have a search and this came up:

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/a-toxic-carrow-road-could-spell-the-end-of-david-wagner-at-norwich-city-view/

What's interesting is how they've worded it:

"When he arrived at Carrow Road back in January 2023, Wagner only signed a 12-month rolling contract with the club, which isn't as uncommon as you may think in football.

So, if Wagner is still there at Norwich for his one year anniversary, then the rolling state of his deal continues and he will essentially always have 12 months remaining on his deal."

That bit I've put in bold suggests that perhaps the first year has to be completed until it goes into a month-by-month rolling contract state?  So you could be right in regards to what the standard procedure is, however, we are Norwich City!

[nutty nigel 7,656]

2 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Surprised there's such confusion over the contract, I'd have thought 'rolling' is self explanatory. He's always got 12 months on it,  so today it runs to 7.11.24 tomorrow it runs to 8.11.24 etc etc sonit doesn't matter when he's dismissed we have to pay him 12 months wage, unless there's a specific clause stating otherwise (which I doubt).

Somehow I doubt a football managers contract could be something so simple that it could be written on a post it note in wax crayon.

[Fen Canary 882]

No football club is going to make it so they are guaranteed to pay out a years salary when the manager finally gets the sack. A 12 month rolling contract means a new 12 month contract starts at the end of each years service, unless either party decides otherwise. 

[mastoola 185]

OMG!  ncfc hands out 12 month rolling contracts!!!!!!    wagner will need to be paid out 12 months pay if terminated  webber will need to be paid out the remainder of the time from when he gave notice on his contract. these are not employment contracts these are commercial contracts

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

10 hours ago, Bradwell canary said:

Should have gone then,  not Daniel!  He sacked him to deflect the attention from himself. After all he commented he did not give Farke the ammunition for the PL. That said it all.

 

Yes, a few said it at the time, we sacked the wrong person. Farke was the scapegoat, and look what he's doing now. That should be us.

[Davidlingfield 63]

10 hours ago, essex canary said:

Probably that's why Moxey walked away with more compensation than salary.

Correct - Moxey had a 12 month notice period, hence took a year’s salary when he left.

[Ken Hairy 3,783]

8 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

No football club is going to make it so they are guaranteed to pay out a years salary when the manager finally gets the sack. A 12 month rolling contract means a new 12 month contract starts at the end of each years service, unless either party decides otherwise. 

No you've described an auto renewal 12 month contract there. 

[Ken Hairy 3,783]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rolling-contract

 

For those of you who for some reason don't get it still

[Fuzzar 1,705]

FFS, unless any of you have actually seen the contract you don't know how it's worded and what its exact stipulations are. 

So, you're all speculating. 

[lake district canary 4,554]

It appears that a rolling contract is like a stone rolling down a hill - which is where we seem to be going.....downhill .......

[Fen Canary 882]

18 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

FFS, unless any of you have actually seen the contract you don't know how it's worded and what its exact stipulations are. 

So, you're all speculating. 

I agree I am speculating, however the way Ken Hairy describes it to me isn’t a rolling contract, it’s a permanent full time position with a guaranteed years severance pay 

[Capt. Pants 4,302]

Let's just admit we don't really know the terms of Wagner's employment contract and nor should we. 

The assumption is he has been served 1 week's notice, ending Saturday. That seems an unlikley situation but maybe severance terms have been agreed and he's honourable enough to do his best for the Cardiff game. Victory against them means it will look as though it will be the 2nd time we've sacked a manager after winning a game, so it's not ideal.

Webber has effectively been sacked and will receive the remainder of his salary up until his March notice date. He leaves under a bit of a cloud to say the least, not helped by what looks to be a particularly dodgy looking trip to Brazil when our club is actually playing, and only 2 weeks before his successor arrives. Forgive me if I believe that trip wasn't sanctioned by the club.

It's a mess and only NCFC could create such a shambles but least we've done something!

 

 

 

[dylanisabaddog 5,044]

9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

No football club is going to make it so they are guaranteed to pay out a years salary when the manager finally gets the sack. A 12 month rolling contract means a new 12 month contract starts at the end of each years service, unless either party decides otherwise. 

I would have thought the contrary was true. If Norwich City want to sack him they know it will only cost them a year's salary. If you give him a 3 year contract and want to sack him after a year you have to pay up 2 years. 

As others have mentioned, it could be an amalgam of both. Fixed for a year then on a rolling basis. 

Either way, the cost of not getting rid of him could be greater than the cost of keeping him, even in the short term. There have been 2 occasions since 1995 when we have been relegated when no one considered it likely or possible. If we're not careful this could be the third. 

[Capt. Pants 4,302]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I would have thought the contrary was true. If Norwich City want to sack him they know it will only cost them a year's salary. If you give him a 3 year contract and want to sack him after a year you have to pay up 2 years. 

As others have mentioned, it could be an amalgam of both. Fixed for a year then on a rolling basis. 

Either way, the cost of not getting rid of him could be greater than the cost of keeping him, even in the short term. There have been 2 occasions since 1995 when we have been relegated when no one considered it likely or possible. If we're not careful this could be the third. 

It could simply be that it's a rolling 12mth period but with an anniversary date, so even if we decide not to continue he would still get a further 12 mths (possibly 11) max pay.

I believe Lambert was initially on 12 mths rolling which we converted to a 3 year deal because he was brilliant! I may have dreamt that though!

 

[Ken Hairy 3,783]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I agree I am speculating, however the way Ken Hairy describes it to me isn’t a rolling contract, it’s a permanent full time position with a guaranteed years severance pay 

You've got it **** about face, I've explained exactly what a rolling contract is, you've literally described the opposite.

Yes there may well be clauses and stipulations that obviously none of us are privy to, but a rolling contract is a rolling contract, its so self explanatory that I'm struggling to get people not getting it.

[shefcanary 2,502]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I agree I am speculating, however the way Ken Hairy describes it to me isn’t a rolling contract, it’s a permanent full time position with a guaranteed years severance pay 

Exactly, a rolling contract. As the Cambridge University definition states, until notice is given, then the contract continues. A 12 month rolling contract means that when notice is given, the employee is entitled to 12 months notice including all remuneration and benefits included in the contract. What actually happens is when notice is given (i.e. the sack), both sides will negotiate to arrive at an agreed compensation package, which is more likely to be lower than the terms of the notice period.

Why would the manager (i.e. Wagner) potentially agree to a lower amount than his contract stipulates, you may ask? Well, it can depend on the terms attached to the 12 month notice period, and it could also be because the notice has been given because of poor performance which could be subject to disciplinary proceedings and valid poor performance deductions included in the contract. It is likely, given the sums managers are paid, to be more tax efficient to agree to a smaller amount (i.e. his net cash received position could improve on agreeing to a spread of payments different to that stated in the contract, he might want the money put into an off shore account which may lead to a smaller cash outlay). There may also be links to on-field performance of the club after notice is given, irrespective of the fact the person is no longer affecting performance. That person may feel potential penalties reducing their take home pay are more likely after their departure so accept a lower amount to release them from these penalties!  

As others have said, we only have the press release details given at the time of Wagner's appointment to go on. Can we trust both the interpretation of the contract given by the club, or that they have been fully transparent in their announcement? Who knows.

What will happen I expect that although he will be due a full 12 months, the actual cost to the club will probably be slightly lower than than if Wagner had worked that full 12 months. But only by a little ...