Toxic, but is calm needed?

[lake district canary 4,551]

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

[canarycop 209]

Wagner walked straight down the tunnel last night as if he knows what's coming. Listen we have all been there when it was really toxic, Chase out etc. We have always generally given managers and our board an easy time because of the little old Norwich tag. Problem I have is we hear nothing from the owners or now the sporting director who seem happy to let things drift along. Its almost as if they are saying that change is coming so why should I care anymore. That is what people get upset about as well as the poor form on the pitch

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

22 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

Should have been saying this when it was Smith under the cosh, because we were better off with him than we have been with Wagner.

[Corbs1 90]

The Shakey 2 were up there possibly worse coaches we have ever had. I enjoyed the beginning of season but always felt club is due a few years of struggle after a miracle of a time; think fans need to get a reality check. Off the pitch we build for another positive era. Middle second tier is where many a big team finds itself.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,833]

Ah Lakey and your endless optimism.

1 win in 9. Already lost to Plymouth and Rotherham. And our goal was promotion.

Think 'panic stations' is understandable

[Capt. Pants 4,298]

Agree we rebuild, but not with Wagner.

Give Pelach a chance to be at the start of a new wonderful era.

Wagner is every bit a tactical dinosaur as Smith was.

 

 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,443]

I'm not usually one to moan about things, but I'm not really happy with things on or off the field at the moment.

This potential 3 year thing with regards to the MA takeover seems ridiculous, just to bumble along until something (or nothing) happens.

I'm not keen on calling for a managers head whenever we get a bad run of results. We can't just keep replacing managers on a whim, eventually the new managers time will come to an end, it always happens.

I don't know what the answer is, things were much simpler (better) in the good old days.

[hogesar 9,767]

It's very hard to turn it around when, for example first half vs Leeds, you play it out from the back with as close-to-perfection as you're likely to see at this level but it still instigated moans and groans from the Barclay to the point Duffy had to request the fans try not to.

From what I can gather fans want us to hit long balls up to Idah so we can moan about how he can't hold it up well enough. 

 

That isn't to say Wagner is making stupid decisions himself because he is, but with the above happening I don't see how it can be turned around

[Petriix 2,853]

I've been saying it for some time that patience is needed. Our squad is weaker than at any point since Farke's first season and arguably since our relegation to League One. Booing and calling for the heads of anyone from Delia, Webber, Wagner, Doris the tea lady and Splat the Cat (RIP) will not change that. 

The first 20 minutes last night showed everything about the system we're trying to play and how it could work, yet also exposed the simple truth that we lack the quality to convert those decent positions into goals. Then we saw more of the vulnerability of having our midfield spread out. Pressing is double-edged: you can win the ball back high and create openings, but you leave yourself short at the back.

Ultimately our biggest weakness is a lack of technical ability in midfield. The ignorant will blame the defence but the deeper detail is that we lack players who can receive the ball in tight areas, take a touch and pick a pass. There's a lack of movement and desire to look for space in central areas. The ball falls to McLean when he drops deep and he simply doesn't have the passing range to open sides up.

We're also lacking a striker who can time a run behind the defence. Middlesbrough we're playing a very high line yet we struggled to play the sort of ball that Pukki routinely scored from: a combination of a lack of vision and a lack of running.

I actually thought we'd tweaked our midfield tactics sensibly last night. Rowe was noticeably deeper and more defensively minded and we were more solid as a result. The two goals we conceded were from misplaced passes rather than poor positioning. 

The trouble is, once the negativity sets in, it's hard to shift. For that reason I think we need a paradigm shift. Webber will be gone soon, the ownership is... in transition. Patience indeed. 

I can't imagine what other manager might get a better tune out of this rabble.

[yellowrider120 793]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Should have been saying this when it was Smith under the cosh, because we were better off with him than we have been with Wagner.

The treatment of Smith towards the end was pretty unedifying (polite statement) with fans following (and still spout out) the common view point that ...........'your football is s---t'. Well there may be some troth in that and Smith totally failed to help his cause by refusing to publicly acknowledge the fans other than a very brief and cursory clap above his head. That said, what has the present incumbent done to improve matters?

Where were NCFC when Smith was sacked and where did Herr Wagner finish last season with that dreadful run in? Where are we in the league table now?? Yet the Norfolk faithful still refuse (for the most part) to 'have a go' at Herr Wagner. Last night was a clear case in point. A very brief and subdued 'we want Wagner / Webber out' and that was it when the second goal went in! Serious case of 'double standards' I would say.

[king canary 7,681]

7 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Booing and calling for the heads of anyone from Delia, Webber, Wagner, Doris the tea lady and Splat the Cat (RIP) will not change that. 

Poor splat.

I don't disagree that the squad isn't great. Yet I'm still willing to bin off Wagner as I don't see any long term future with his style of football. At this point he's been a failure almost his entire managerial career outside of two seasons at Huddersfield. I don't want a new SD looking at building and reshaping the squad around him. 

[TheBaldOne66 702]

50 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

So basically it’s the fans fault, is what your saying?

You truly are an idiot to blame the fans ffs! 
 

Play decent football without stupid simple mistakes the fans wouldn’t get on people’s backs but who has left us with this crappy squad? Webber! Who picks the most bizarre teams? Wagner!

None of that is down to the fans is it? For once get off your high horse and stop trying to blame others. The blame simply lies with how this **** show is being run from the top down! 

Edited October 25, 2023 by TheBaldOne66

[lake district canary 4,551]

1 minute ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

So basically it’s the fans fault, is what your saying?

You truly are an idiot to blame the fans ffs!

Play decent football without stupid simple mistakes the fans wouldn’t get on people’s backs but who has left us with this crappy squad? Webber! Who picks the most bizarre teams? Wagner!

None of that is down to the fans is it? For once get off your high horse and stop trying to blame others. The blame simply lies with how this **** show is being run from the top down! 

Read it again. I didn't blame fans, I just said how a spiral of negativity isn't going to help us.

[S_81 890]

58 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I'm as disapponted at the results as anyone, players clearly lack confidence and look under extra pressure because results are bad.....but is the growing toxicity going to help?

It's virtually impossible for the players and manager at the moment because - it seems like we want Webber and Wagner to go more than we want them to turn it round - and that just isn't going to work - it never does. Fans effectively get rid of managers by making things so toxic, that owners/senior management bow under the pressure. But sacking Wagner now would imo be like when we sacked Farke - a huge mistake. Not because I think Wagner is as good as Farke, but because who will take his place? Change isn't always better, when the fundamental problems are lack of resources to get the players we need - and injuries to two key players who can make a huge difference - Sargent and Barnes. 

We all know Webber is leaving anyway - and that is right - change is happening - but the new guy in charge, Knapper, has to be the man to make the decision on the manager, not Webber or crucially, not the fans - it musn't get too toxic. Things could change after Christmas when we get Sargent and Barnes back in - maybe get Batth settled in the team too - so despite the negativity, which I fully understand - now is not the time to force change imo.

I don't rate Wagner, I don't rate Webber, I think the take over should happen sooner - but what do we really want?  Results, that's what......but we ain't gonna get them while the present anxst is there from the fans. Even under Wagner, who looks a little shell shocked at the moment - this season can still be rescued - Sargent and Barnes will make a huge difference - it will help Sara/Sainz/Nunez - who I still rate - and others to flourish too when they are back. 

It's not nice on a bad run, but things can get better as the season progresses. Toxicity, though will ruin that possibilty. So is calm needed? I think so, but do you?

No, I don’t think so. We need to get both Wagner and Webber out of our club asap. Politely your touchy feely nicely nicely approach has and will just extend the obvious. 

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

Webbers going, Wagner needs to go with him and the fans need to start letting the owners know this isn’t acceptable

[komakino 275]

It should be remembered that the first season or so under Farke, they were trying a play a system that the players were not good enough to play, but as we all know it did eventually all come together - but it does not look like that here. 

There seems a complete lack of confidence and understanding as that comes from the manager. While I have sympathies for Wagner losing key players, he now has that look about him that he doesn't really have any answers and players will be trotted out giving the usually cliches of working hard on the training ground and giving it 110% (sic). 

Everyone will be queuing up to play us right now. 

Promotion is out of the question as we not only have relegation from upon us, but administration form. I'm sure something will be done to stop that from happening, but we need to hit the reset button, but with whom and what league remains to be seen. 

[ZLF 275]

30 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It's very hard to turn it around when, for example first half vs Leeds, you play it out from the back with as close-to-perfection as you're likely to see at this level

Agree on the brain dead not appreciating the build up play;  sadly it was only for half the game and despite that perfection the yawning defensive chasms were evident all 90 mins, leads to a major on pitch argument between the cbs which the capt had to get involved with, and those defensive chasms opened up to cost us the game. Again

[lake district canary 4,551]

26 minutes ago, S_81 said:

No, I don’t think so. We need to get both Wagner and Webber out of our club asap. Politely your touchy feely nicely nicely approach has and will just extend the obvious. 

I wasn't intending to be  touchy feely or nicely nicely - just trying to be pragmatic in a sh*tstorm. Some level headedness has to be there. 

[S_81 890]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I wasn't intending to be  touchy feely or nicely nicely - just trying to be pragmatic in a sh*tstorm. Some level headedness has to be there. 

No, passive, happy clapping behaviour is what’s enabled Stu to hang around too long - along with Wagner now. We need both out of this club asap 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I wasn't intending to be  touchy feely or nicely nicely - just trying to be pragmatic in a sh*tstorm. Some level headedness has to be there. 

Again, where was this when it was someone who, frankly, had more to commend them at the time he wa sacked than Wagner has?

 

[Ulfotto 644]

Last season one of the main criticisms of Smith was that he was not a philosophy manager each game tended to be approached differently. I recall our ten men behind the ball against Burnley coming in for particular scrutiny. Now with Wagner he is a philosophy manager the plan never changes even when it is clearly not working. I suspect the formation etc.. will not change away at Sunderland. The issue is the players no longer have the confidence to play his high risk high reward football. We are dying for a plan b but I think Wagner will just double down on plan a.

This is compounded by the off field mess where we more than likely going need to change the manager without a having anyone in the position to appoint a new one.

The only thing we can hope for is somehow our form turns otherwise it’s going to get very painful.

 

[king canary 7,681]

8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I wasn't intending to be  touchy feely or nicely nicely - just trying to be pragmatic in a sh*tstorm. Some level headedness has to be there. 

I do get what you're saying here- new guy coming in soon, we're in limbo, no change of HC likely until Knapper arrives so no point letting the atmosphere sour too much when Wagner is likely on his way soon anyway.

I do think though that fans in the stadium can only react to what is put out on the pitch. So I'm not going to blame anyone for booing or chanting for Wagner out at the end of yet another loss.

[lake district canary 4,551]

4 minutes ago, S_81 said:

No, passive, happy clapping behaviour is what’s enabled Stu to hang around too long - along with Wagner now. We need both out of this club asap 

But Webber is going, problem solved. As for Wagner, that surely has to be Knapper's decision.

[shefcanary 2,482]

58 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I actually thought we'd tweaked our midfield tactics sensibly last night. Rowe was noticeably deeper and more defensively minded and we were more solid as a result. The two goals we conceded were from misplaced passes rather than poor positioning. 

This is true, but essentially the structure of the team was still the ****ing same! It needs more than a defensive tweak, especially at home (it probably would be fine away but you have your own fans wanting some kind of positive for paying their hard earned to attend). Wagner has to change the structure to one this current squad can play to. He can go back to his favourite structure when the likes of Sargent Barnes are back. A good manager understands this - a bad manager like Wagner just lets things fester. If we had an independent football person on the board, this message would get through to the manager, but not where this club has been for the past three years.

[Canarywary 110]

2 minutes ago, S_81 said:

No, passive, happy clapping behaviour is what’s enabled Stu to hang around too long - along with Wagner now. We need both out of this club asap 

Do you genuinely think that every time we go on a bad run, the fans should turn toxic and we should sack the manager? And anything else is 'happy clapping' and causing the downfall of the club?

Clubs that get into cycles of replacing managers at the first sound of a boo often struggle to get out of that cycle, and also don't get very far.

[lake district canary 4,551]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

12 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I wasn't intending to be  touchy feely or nicely nicely - just trying to be pragmatic in a sh*tstorm. Some level headedness has to be there. 

Again, where was this when it was someone who, frankly, had more to commend them at the time he wa sacked than Wagner has?

Are you talking about Smith?  You neeed to get over it, he was not suited to this club. The sheer lack of intensity in training after Farke left is the single worst thing about his regime. And the football was pretty bad too.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

What I find amazing is that this is possibly the first time that I can really see very good reason to be toxic about the manager's very clear failings. Now suddenly everyone's getting all phlegmatic.

Incredible.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Are you talking about Smith?  You neeed to get over it, he was not suited to this club. The sheer lack of intensity in training after Farke left is the single worst thing about his regime. And the football was pretty bad too.

You have absolutely no f*king right to say that with your bellyaching over Farke.

I was over Smith the minute he was gone. Doesn't mean I didn't think it was stupid to sack him, or that we were going to finish up worse off as a result. Which we are.

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[S_81 890]

3 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Do you genuinely think that every time we go on a bad run, the fans should turn toxic and we should sack the manager? And anything else is 'happy clapping' and causing the downfall of the club?

Clubs that get into cycles of replacing managers at the first sound of a boo often struggle to get out of that cycle, and also don't get very far.

No I don’t. But I do believe that Webber has been allowed to stay too long and Wagner is yet another example of that fact. We are now in a situation where we really do need to get rid of Wagner (before we sink further like a stone) but we can’t trust Webber to hire someone competent instead. We are in limbo and the football is evidencing that fact 

[S_81 890]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

But Webber is going, problem solved. As for Wagner, that surely has to be Knapper's decision.

He’s not leaving soon enough. That’s the problem.