"You don't change a winning team"

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

And I don't think subbing off your goal scoring winger when you need a goal either is a good idea and yet..

 

So what was Wagner thinking today?

Edited October 4, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

I said before the season was underway that we seemed to be assembling a team that will be difficult to beat. The opposite has become true. Three losses to three moderate outfits. It was ping-pong football for a lot of the time tonight, with our sluggish defence and lack of real penetration up front eventually tipping the points Swansea's way.

David Wagner is certainly not amongst the better tacticians we have had as a manager, to say the least.  

[AJ 1,359]

16 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

And I don't think subbing off your goal scoring winger when you need a goal either is a good idea and yet..

 

So what was Wagner thinking today?

Rowe was knackered when withdrawn, the problem is we just don't have the depth in quality so a few injuries leave the squad where it really is, bang average championship quality

[Robert N. LiM 6,299]

If "you don't change a winning team" was ever true, it's certainly not now when fitness is paramount and you play three games a week.

There was nothing wrong with the starting XI; it made a lot of sense* and we controlled the game.

The subs, that's another matter - but there's already a thread on that.

 

*But I do take @canarydan23's point that dropping Idah was probably a psychological error.

[S_81 1,102]

20 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

And I don't think subbing off your goal scoring winger when you need a goal either is a good idea and yet..

 

So what was Wagner thinking today?

Wagner should have been let go in the summer. 

[canarydan23 4,762]

3 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

David Wagner is certainly not amongst the better tacticians we have had as a manager, to say the least.  

The trouble is, "tactical nous" wasn't as high as "in Stu Webber's phone contacts" and "available for free" in the virtues we sought out in a new manager.

[canarydan23 4,762]

1 minute ago, S_81 said:

Wagner should have been let go in the summer. 

He should have been let go after his interview.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,791]

This is a little bit (alright a lot) like the substitute thread made about 10 mins ago Cambridge? I know you like a thread or 7 but even by your standards thats a bit silly? 

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

20 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

This is a little bit (alright a lot) like the substitute thread made about 10 mins ago Cambridge? I know you like a thread or 7 but even by your standards thats a bit silly? 

I made this thread before that one buddy. Not exactly my fault someone made a thread similar to mine!

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,791]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

I made this thread before that one buddy. Not exactly my fault someone made a thread similar to mine!

 

Fair point. But I ain’t your buddy . 

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

Just now, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Fair point. But I ain’t your buddy . 

 

[Jimmy Raggatip 66]

Guessing he was trying to save his legs, we've got a lot of games coming thick and fast

 

Look at Saka last night, being ran in to the ground

I've no problem with him making the sub, needs to keep the rest of the squad relatively happy as a happy squad is how we will rise up the table

[Capt. Pants 5,013]

Changing the winning team wasn't actually the issue it was changing the team during the game where he got it horribly wrong, which I think is actually worse.

 

[Mason 47 1,925]

I think it's hard to really put any concrete evaluations on the starting side as we conceded after 3 minutes. Being as that same side clawed a goal back and started to get control of the game, without the early concession we may well have been saying it was well picked.

I'd go as far to say that we needed (and still need) a shake up, our current mode has been worked out. The main issue being if I told you the player starting right attacking mid would be hard-working, keen to play but just doesn't produce anything... you could be describing 3 of the 4 options. The 4th being Fassnacht who I suspect is struggling with the Championship slog.

 

[ged in the onion bag 961]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

And I don't think subbing off your goal scoring winger when you need a goal either is a good idea and yet..

 

So what was Wagner thinking today?

There are loads of reasons why you change a winning team…… players needing a rest, having a slight niggle, being more effective at home / away….. for a different tactical approach, to replace someone who didn’t play well in the previous win…. 

Take our wingers for example… we might be quite open and expansive at home so play an outright offensive option but then away go with a more defensive minded option intending to be compact / difficult to beat.
 

If he did that and we won, he’d be applauded.     The problem is more fundamental than the manager….

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

Can accept being beaten by Leicester...but Swansea are ordinary and we were on top ,yet somehow found  a way to lose via our own substitutions.  

The Plymouth debacle was on Wagner's team selection.

....as for the Rotherham defeat.   Threyve won one game in 10.  Says it all

[canarycop 232]

Watching the game I was amazed at the starting line up. On Saturday we tried Rowe as the number 10 which didn't work. Pushed him out wide right he cuts in and scores. Last night we start him on the left and bring in Springett who wasn't in squad on Saturday. It's been said that Duffy can't play 3 games in a week. It showed last night. Warner plays well alongside Gibson against Fulham and is nowhere near the squad. What's happened to Gibbs ? He must be wondering what he has to do to get on ahead of Hernandez, Placheta et al. International break coming up. Change things on Saturday.

Gunn

Stacey Warner Gibson Giannoulis 

Forshaw McLean 

Fassnacht Sara Sainz

Idah

 

[Indy 3,471]

Got ten minutes this morning! 8 of the line up have played in all ten games and we have an older core of players. We need some level of rotation from this set of players as it’s 4 losses in 6 games so it’s not changing a winning teaM!

It’s an inconsistent team!

[norfolkngood 1,174]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

Got ten minutes this morning! 8 of the line up have played in all ten games and we have an older core of players. We need some level of rotation from this set of players as it’s 4 losses in 6 games so it’s not changing a winning teaM!

It’s an inconsistent team!

you are right Indy from a inconsistent manager ,

i am so confused why he left out Idah our only goal scoring striker ,

when others like you said older players have played far more ,

then his subs and some of the things he says like Gibbs striker 

we are a rudderless ship as soon as we get a new DOF the better 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by norfolkngood

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

14 hours ago, AJ said:

Rowe was knackered when withdrawn, the problem is we just don't have the depth in quality so a few injuries leave the squad where it really is, bang average championship quality

He isn't playing any more than all the other regular starters. If he is tired after an hour, 10 matches in, and is 20 years old, I do have to question the fitness coach. Score a goal and you can run all day. I am not sure just before he was subbed if he was shooting or crossing. But score and he would have danced around the pitch.

[Robert N. LiM 6,299]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

He isn't playing any more than all the other regular starters. If he is tired after an hour, 10 matches in, and is 20 years old, I do have to question the fitness coach. Score a goal and you can run all day. I am not sure just before he was subbed if he was shooting or crossing. But score and he would have danced around the pitch.

As @TheGunnShow has suggested, there's a big difference between explosive strength and bursts of pace, and stamina. Seems clear that Rowe's strength is the former rather than the latter. Different kinds of fitness. And generally I think our style is designed to be high-intensity (note how much running Springett did last night, for instance), which means you have to use your bench and account for some of your starters only lasting an hour. With five subs this is just part and parcel of the game now.

The problem with this, of course, is that we don't seem to have enough quality on the bench (especially with the current injuries amongst our attacking players) to make this work.

And equally, there have got to be times when you say to Rowe, I know you're knackered, but you're going to have to play the full 90 here. I'd imagine that Swansea were delighted when he was (a) moved inside, away from their RB who he'd terrorised all night and had just got a yellow; and (b) taken off altogether.

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

Just now, Robert N. LiM said:

As @TheGunnShow has suggested, there's a big difference between explosive strength and bursts of pace, and stamina. Seems clear that Rowe's strength is the former rather than the latter. Different kinds of fitness. And generally I think our style is designed to be high-intensity (note how much running Springett did last night, for instance), which means you have to use your bench and account for some of your starters only lasting an hour. With five subs this is just part and parcel of the game now.

The problem with this, of course, is that we don't seem to have enough quality on the bench (especially with the current injuries amongst our attacking players) to make this work.

And equally, there have got to be times when you say to Rowe, I know you're knackered, but you're going to have to play the full 90 here. I'd imagine that Swansea were delighted when he was (a) moved inside, away from their RB who he'd terrorised all night and had just got a yellow; and (b) taken off altogether.

Exactly. We cannot afford, until someone tells that Sainz is not going to play and get injured for the U21s, to not start Rowe. Sara is in the same predicament. And hats off to Gabriel, he has won me over with his endeavour.

Surely, in this era of sports science, the players are assessed differently? All that I will say is that aas someone who ran marathons for the pain of it rather than the love (there is no love for 26 miles) I pat myself on the back that even though I was screaming inside, I pushed myself to the limit. If Rowe cannot, or isn't prepared to do that then he is just going to end up playing at this level and no higher.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,791]

Classic debate . A result based industry . 
 

Last night midway through the second half we found ourselves in control. Swansea were labouring and had a couple on yellows. Swansea had stopped the long ball to the striker as we were mostly stopping the supply . Only one winner . 
 

As a direct result of our changes (and theirs of course) the game completely changed. You can  only draw the conclusion that the coaching decision by us were wrong and by Swansea were correct. 
 

 

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

53 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Exactly. We cannot afford, until someone tells that Sainz is not going to play and get injured for the U21s, to not start Rowe. Sara is in the same predicament. And hats off to Gabriel, he has won me over with his endeavour.

Surely, in this era of sports science, the players are assessed differently? All that I will say is that aas someone who ran marathons for the pain of it rather than the love (there is no love for 26 miles) I pat myself on the back that even though I was screaming inside, I pushed myself to the limit. If Rowe cannot, or isn't prepared to do that then he is just going to end up playing at this level and no higher.

Sure, but the problem is this: highly explosive activity is naturally extremely draining and there's only so much of that kind of activity the human body can do before it gets tired. As a general rule of thumb, those who are highly explosive will get tired if they're asked to maintain a brisk pace for some time. 

Think of it like a Formula One car engine. The performance is incredible, but they don't last and have to be rebuilt. Rowe is a highly explosive player, but he needs recovery periods more than most due to that reason. You can become fitter and more enduring, but you will sacrifice some of that explosiveness and serious bursts of acceleration.

At vets football, I have the other problem. I run half-marathons for fun, but I don't always quite have the top speed needed to be a real and obvious threat from my position at full-back or wing-back.

Rowe's a classic 60-minute player. We have plenty of subs available, so keep one for him.

[Capt. Pants 5,013]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

 

Surely, in this era of sports science, the players are assessed differently? All that I will say is that aas someone who ran marathons for the pain of it rather than the love (there is no love for 26 miles) I pat myself on the back that even though I was screaming inside, I pushed myself to the limit. If Rowe cannot, or isn't prepared to do that then he is just going to end up playing at this level and no higher.

Love that. You can do all the tests you like, sports scientists can look at all the data they like, but if Rowe isn't going to suffer or given the opportunity to suffer then he will quickly plateau around the 60 min mark, which is no good to anyone.

I don't necessarily blame the player here. Rowe's fitness has to be relative to every other player's at similar points in the game.

Seems we have too many fingers in the pie and are overcomplicated the process.

[shefcanary 2,955]

I read all this. And accept the arguments. But, and this is the big point, others on here have clearly stated we have a lack of depth in our squad which prevents like for like substitutions. So, we have to play differently to make the most of our best players.

Is Rowe a one trick, explosive player? I think he is more than that. We have to treat him and Sara like say, Messi, and allow them time to recover every now and then. That means we have to set up differently tactically to get the best out of these players. 

In my view, the fact we have run Rowe into the ground within 60 minutes is a weakness of Wagner. He is being dogmatic in his approach, the system taking priority over the playing assets he has at his command. Smith was guilty of this with Pukki and we are beginning to see a similar problem brewing here. When we play away from home, Wagner has to change the way we play if we are to get the best out of the better players for longer.

At home, with the crowd behind us, it might be a different matter. But there is a reason why we have lost of last four away matches.

[Google Bot 3,934]

Stacey is putting far more coverage at a higher constant rate than Rowe, there's no reason he should be screwed after 60 mins other than not managing his work-rate correctly. 

If he learnt to stop running into dead ends, and instead look up and use his team-mates we would be a far better attacking threat.  A player like that should already be aware that it's the change of pace that kills, not relentlessly doing the same thing over and over, that is just wasteful and far too many of our wide options are guilty of it.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Google Bot