match thread *official lappinitup match thread Saints V Canaries*

[Jim Smith 2,349]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I didn't see the first penalty incident, but the second looked a fair decision to me. It hurts because it cost us two points. As to the offside, I think Barnes was offside at the moment of the free kick and that's why he was flagged when - some time later - he put the ball in the net. If the other NCFC player in the vicinity had scored I assume it would have been allowed.

That doesn’t matter though does it if another of our players has shot and the keeper has saved the ball in the meantime? If the free kick was saved by the keeper and it goes directly to Barnes then yes that’s offside. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,805]

6 minutes ago, baldy09 said:

looking at the sky highlights it looks like our player certainly elbowed and pushed there player. the ref was given an easy choice has it looks

What?...Walker-Peters falls into Dimi.

The more times I see it the more bent it looks

 

[Hairy Canary 713]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

As to the offside, I think Barnes was offside at the moment of the free kick and that's why he was flagged when - some time later - he put the ball in the net. If the other NCFC player in the vicinity had scored I assume it would have been allowed.

The point here is had Sara’s free kick gone straight in would Barns have been flagged offside? The answer is clearly no as he wasn’t interfering with play. This has been the rule for some years now.

So we then move to phase two of the play after the keeper makes the save. The ball comes to Josh, who was not offside when the kick was taken, squares it to Barns who is now in an onside position and scores.

Unfortunately it is a clear mistake by the Lino which has cost us two points. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Hairy Canary

[Mason 47 1,403]

2 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

The point here is had Sara’s free kick gone straight in would Barns have been flagged offside? The answer is clearly no as he wasn’t interfering with play. This has been the rule for some years now.

So we then move to phase two of the play after the keeper makes the save. The ball comes to Josh, who was not offside when the kick was taken, squares it to Barnes who is now in an onside position and scores.

Unfortunately it is a clear mistake by the Lino which has cost us two points. 

👆 as clear as it can be said 

[Jim Smith 2,349]

9 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

The point here is had Sara’s free kick gone straight in would Barns have been flagged offside? The answer is clearly no as he wasn’t interfering with play. This has been the rule for some years now.

So we then move to phase two of the play after the keeper makes the save. The ball comes to Josh, who was not offside when the kick was taken, squares it to Barns who is now in an onside position and scores.

Unfortunately it is a clear mistake by the Lino which has cost us two points. 

Yes. Think back to that goal Arsenal scored against us at the Emirates two seasons ago. And the whole football officialdom world told us it’s onside.

If the keeper saves the free kick and parties it straight bank to Barnes then it’s offside. Not what happened.

 

[canarydan23 4,064]

16 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes. Think back to that goal Arsenal scored against us at the Emirates two seasons ago. And the whole football officialdom world told us it’s onside.

If the keeper saves the free kick and parties it straight bank to Barnes then it’s offside. Not what happened.

 

This is the hardest thing to accept. When they make a visual error and call something wrong it sucks but it happens. Look at their second pen to see that it happens.

They. Did. Not. Understand. The. Rules.

That is absolutely inexcusable.

Edited August 12, 2023 by canarydan23

[Branston Pickle 3,707]

28 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

The point here is had Sara’s free kick gone straight in would Barns have been flagged offside? The answer is clearly no as he wasn’t interfering with play. This has been the rule for some years now.

So we then move to phase two of the play after the keeper makes the save. The ball comes to Josh, who was not offside when the kick was taken, squares it to Barns who is now in an onside position and scores.

Unfortunately it is a clear mistake by the Lino which has cost us two points. 

Certainly how we all saw it at the game - if it wasn’t a mistake it means I have absolutely no idea what the offside rule is nowadays.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, baldy09 said:

looking at the sky highlights it looks like our player certainly elbowed and pushed there player. the ref was given an easy choice has it looks

Elbowed? If you look at it, matey moves into Dimi to naturally protect himself and its clever enough because Dimi has nowhere to go. Certainly no elbow.

[Branston Pickle 3,707]

I’m in total agreement with DW about what were,  to me, the two key incidents: their first goal had a big push in the back (on Stacey, I think) and I was fully expecting a foul to be given; the other is the disallowed goal - I can’t for the life of me see how it’s offside given their keeper makes a save…even moreso that the ref (who was pretty bloody awful) didn’t go and query with him.

[7HAR1980 110]

8 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

The only thing that’s shocking is your over-reaction.

Still didn't fancy explaining how i was over-reacting? 

 

[Haus 259]

Theres going to be a lot of suspensions this year, we need depth for when that happens

[LaUnionCanary 86]

12 hours ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Another 4-4 against the Saints. Crazy days!

Happy with the point; encouraging signs going forward.

OTBC

I was at the one in about 1986 at the Carra. Memory says that it was an incredible game.

[Gordon Bennett 794]

I can remember being at a 4-5, early nineties. Late, late Ken Monkou header from a Le Tissier corner.

[Jim Smith 2,349]

Watching MOTD Isaks first for Newcastle a very, very stark illustration of how we were robbed with Barnes’s goal 

[Aggy 766]

13 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

 

we desperately need to get Omobamidele back in that side and Gibson out.

 

 

Do we think Gibson was the issue defensively yesterday?

1st - Dimi doesn’t do enough to stop the cross and Stacey doesn’t do enough at the far post.

2nd - soft freekick but not really sure what Dimi is doing, and Stacey handball silly.

3rd - scrappy, if anyone at fault then you’d probably have to look at Gunn not bothering to stick his arm out while diving.

4th - Dimi clumsy (even if not a pen, don’t get wrong side and that close in that position).

Not sure the centre backs do much about any of those.

[horsefly 4,318]

45 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Do we think Gibson was the issue defensively yesterday?

1st - Dimi doesn’t do enough to stop the cross and Stacey doesn’t do enough at the far post.

2nd - soft freekick but not really sure what Dimi is doing, and Stacey handball silly.

3rd - scrappy, if anyone at fault then you’d probably have to look at Gunn not bothering to stick his arm out while diving.

4th - Dimi clumsy (even if not a pen, don’t get wrong side and that close in that position).

Not sure the centre backs do much about any of those.

Not sure why some people find the need to have a go at Giannoulis.  He did far more right than he did wrong. His excellent surging runs are proving vital to the counter-attacking style that has marked the two performance so far this season.

As for the penalty, absolutely not his fault. If the ref is unable to spot the player literally (and very obviously) diving into Dimi away from the trajectory of the ball then that is the ref's fault not his. The idea that Dimi shouldn't have been "that close" to a player bearing down on goal, strikes me as preposterous. Had he backed off I suspect the critics would have been fulminating at him for not closing down the attack.

[Aggy 766]

25 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Not sure why some people find the need to have a go at Giannoulis.  He did far more right than he did wrong. His excellent surging runs are proving vital to the counter-attacking style that has marked the two performance so far this season.

As for the penalty, absolutely not his fault. If the ref is unable to spot the player literally (and very obviously) diving into Dimi away from the trajectory of the ball then that is the ref's fault not his. The idea that Dimi shouldn't have been "that close" to a player bearing down on goal, strikes me as preposterous. Had he backed off I suspect the critics would have been fulminating at him for not closing down the attack.

To suggest it’s some sort of witch-hunt is well off the mark. I’ve criticised three of the five defenders/keeper on the day in respect of the goals conceded.

He looked decent going forward (lucky with the “assist” for the fourth though which was a poor final ball in behind his teammate). He’ll be an important part of the side this year for his attacking threat. But I think everyone knows he needs to work on his defensive abilities - and he was a large part of the reason we conceded three of the four. 

As for the penalty, again afraid you’re well off the mark. He’s behind the attacker. If you get caught the wrong side in the box, you don’t then get that close behind the attacker, to avoid giving away penalties like he did today. Especially when there are three yellow shirts goalside who are better positioned to close down. Pretty basic schoolboy stuff.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Aggy

[chicken 2,656]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

Do we think Gibson was the issue defensively yesterday?

1st - Dimi doesn’t do enough to stop the cross and Stacey doesn’t do enough at the far post.

2nd - soft freekick but not really sure what Dimi is doing, and Stacey handball silly.

3rd - scrappy, if anyone at fault then you’d probably have to look at Gunn not bothering to stick his arm out while diving.

4th - Dimi clumsy (even if not a pen, don’t get wrong side and that close in that position).

Not sure the centre backs do much about any of those.

Duffy handball wasn't it? Not Stacey. Dimi did nothing wrong to give away the free kick, stupidly soft again from the ref.

Last pen, if you watch, their player puts his arm across Giannoulis to initiate the contact. That's not a foul. It goes under the same thing a getting a foul for losing a shoulder to shoulder.

Rules stipulate you can shield the ball, if you do that you are initiating the contact aspect of foot all. If you are weaker than your openent, as in, they don't use their hands/arms but you fail to hold them off, then you've simply lost a duel. 

Two three incredibly soft decisions on two pens and the free kick before one, then Barne's dissallowed goal.

A draw was probably a fair result though, it's just very weird to see some people desperately trying to find something to hate on.

We've won at home and drawn away to the title favourites. It's two games. Now is not the time to be ordering new pants and bedsheets.

[horsefly 4,318]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

To suggest it’s some sort of witch-hunt is well off the mark. I’ve criticised three of the five defenders/keeper on the day in respect of the goals conceded.

He looked decent going forward (lucky with the “assist” for the fourth though which was a poor final ball in behind his teammate). He’ll be an important part of the side this year for his attacking threat. But I think everyone knows he needs to work on his defensive abilities - and he was a large part of the reason we conceded three of the four. 

As for the penalty, again afraid you’re well off the mark. He’s behind the attacker. If you get caught the wrong side in the box, you don’t get that close, to avoid giving away penalties like he did today. Especially when there are three yellow shirts goalside of the attacker who are better positioned to close down. Pretty basic schoolboy stuff.

Tosh! He was heading directly for the loose ball that had escaped the control of the attacker, and he was the nearest defender to do that. The referee's failure to see that the attacker had lost control and dived into Giannoulis is not his fault.

[PurpleCanary 5,590]

3 minutes ago, Aggy said:

To suggest it’s some sort of witch-hunt is well off the mark. I’ve criticised three of the five defenders/keeper on the day in respect of the goals conceded.

He looked decent going forward (lucky with the “assist” for the fourth though which was a poor final ball in behind his teammate). He’ll be an important part of the side this year for his attacking threat. But I think everyone knows he needs to work on his defensive abilities - and he was a large part of the reason we conceded three of the four. 

As for the penalty, again afraid you’re well off the mark. He’s behind the attacker. If you get caught the wrong side in the box, you don’t then get that close behind the attacker, to avoid giving away penalties like he did today. Especially when there are three yellow shirts goalside who are better positioned to close down. Pretty basic schoolboy stuff.

Yes, he is. I have seen it said that somehow the Saints player moved across Giannoulis to create a collision. No. Giannoulis was always behind.

[Aggy 766]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Duffy handball wasn't it? Not Stacey. Dimi did nothing wrong to give away the free kick, stupidly soft again from the ref.

Last pen, if you watch, their player puts his arm across Giannoulis to initiate the contact. That's not a foul. It goes under the same thing a getting a foul for losing a shoulder to shoulder.

Rules stipulate you can shield the ball, if you do that you are initiating the contact aspect of foot all. If you are weaker than your openent, as in, they don't use their hands/arms but you fail to hold them off, then you've simply lost a duel. 

Two three incredibly soft decisions on two pens and the free kick before one, then Barne's dissallowed goal.

A draw was probably a fair result though, it's just very weird to see some people desperately trying to find something to hate on.

We've won at home and drawn away to the title favourites. It's two games. Now is not the time to be ordering new pants and bedsheets.

You’re right - was Duffy.

Agree the freekick was soft. Just sort of dangles a bit though. Wonder if he’d committed whether it might have looked “better” and got away with it.

Barnes offside is ridiculous. 

Agree overall - I’d have taken four points from these opening games and looks like it’s going to be a fun season one way or another!

[horsefly 4,318]

Just now, PurpleCanary said:

Yes, he is. I have seen it said that somehow the Saints player moved across Giannoulis to create a collision. No. Giannoulis was always behind.

You need to watch the highlights again. Being in front of a player does not give you license to jump into him away from the trajectory of the ball and then expect a penalty. This is a comment taken from the Southampton fan site "Well, to be honest, everyone would be fuming had Norwich got such a penalty. So, a lucky point in the end."

[Aggy 766]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes, he is. I have seen it said that somehow the Saints player moved across Giannoulis to create a collision. No. Giannoulis was always behind.

It’s not even his man. He was beaten earlier on and his man is the one who makes the pass. As a defender in the box, sometimes you need to know when to stay out of it. This was definitely one of those times. 

Was still a bit soft - but bottom line is, if he’d not gone in close behind the striker, it’s no pen. And I’m not sure they score if Dimi doesn’t make the challenge - three defenders between him and the goal (with a fourth closing from the side) and the keeper to beat.

[PurpleCanary 5,590]

There is an element of moving sideways but the basic physical sequence is still Giannoulis, Saints player, ball.

[hogesar 9,776]

16 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

We had a very dodgy decision go for us last week, didn’t we?

So we had one marginal "might have gone out" decision in our favour game one, and game two we had:

- Stacey fouled for first goal

- Soft pen for handball when Duffys arm is forced up by opposing player

- A second ridiculously soft pen which if consistent would mean a pen for Sargent last week and about 40 last season

- A goal given for offside that wasn't offside.

So we are already 4-1 down in decisions..

[PurpleCanary 5,590]

This is not germane to the argument over the penalty, but with at least 8 minutes of added time and the way they were coming at us it probably would have been a surprise if they hadn't equalised one way or another.

[Jim Smith 2,349]

Why was there 8 minutes of added time anyway. What stoppages were there in that second half. Home teams are going to score a lot of late goals this season as refs cave in to pressure 

[Branston Pickle 3,707]

1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

This is not germane to the argument over the penalty, but with at least 8 minutes of added time and the way they were coming at us it probably would have been a surprise if they hadn't equalised one way or another.

Not untrue - and the pen was actually given in 90+4, so not actually that far in and well within time added on In previous seasons.  Of most annoyance is that it is a very a soft one, you can see why it is given…but you can be near certain it wouldn’t have been given for us.

[hogesar 9,776]

2 hours ago, Aggy said:

Do we think Gibson was the issue defensively yesterday?

1st - Dimi doesn’t do enough to stop the cross and Stacey doesn’t do enough at the far post.

2nd - soft freekick but not really sure what Dimi is doing, and Stacey handball silly.

3rd - scrappy, if anyone at fault then you’d probably have to look at Gunn not bothering to stick his arm out while diving.

4th - Dimi clumsy (even if not a pen, don’t get wrong side and that close in that position).

Not sure the centre backs do much about any of those.

I actually thought Gibson had a much better game than last week which is odd considering the goals we conceded. He covered for Duffy and for Gini more than once

[TheBaldOne66 703]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

So we had one marginal "might have gone out" decision in our favour game one, and game two we had:

- Stacey fouled for first goal

- Soft pen for handball when Duffys arm is forced up by opposing player

- A second ridiculously soft pen which if consistent would mean a pen for Sargent last week and about 40 last season

- A goal given for offside that wasn't offside.

So we are already 4-1 down in decisions..

These comments always make me laugh as so many people think they actually know the laws of the game even though they’ve never even seen the LOAF( Laws Of Association Football)

Everybody is a referee when it comes to their club, but are totally blind if it’s for the opposition.

The referee can only go on what he sees and has a split second to make a decision, whereas fans see it over and over again on tv or social media. It’s the hardest job in the world, and they actually have a rate of getting 95% of all decisions right. 
 

I know how difficult it is to be a ref as I was one about 15 years ago, and the game has evolved so much since then. 
 

Until I qualified, I also was very blinkered but I see it totally different now.

And for the record, a very good friend of mine who is a former Champs League official said the goal Idah scored last week should have been disallowed as it was a deflection off the defender not a deliberate action which is what the law currently states, as Idah was clearly offside. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by TheBaldOne66