Dean Smith / Sargent / Pukki

[hogesar 9,891]

Certainly not as awful as was made out, but most sensible football people knew that. He had to go because the fans had decided but he certainly wasn't "the" problem.

However,  for all the poor performances from Dean Smith, and the mocking that came from him playing Sargent out wide and Wagner disagreeing with that...

Sargent has looked much less of a player under Wagner, hasn't he?

Unfortunately, the players rejuvenated under Wagner like Dowell and Onel are injured.

Pukki too - has looked far less effective in both goals and assists under Wagner.

I dont think this is massively surprising - I don't think Huddersfield were hugely freescoring under Wagner after all.

I sympathise with Wagner. He's missing a link between midfield and the front players - which sounds crazy when not long ago we felt overstocked at CAM.

[Indy 3,366]

Hmm. Really, there’s a reason Smith missed out on three division 1 jobs and is still unemployed!

As for Sargent, he’s been injured and only just back after a month out! Not sure any comparison can be made. To me the players in the squad have lost all believe and confidence, maybe given two relegations have knocked the stuffing out of the senior players which means lack of leaders on the pitch.

[Excited Canary 19]

“Certainly wasn’t as awful as was made out” - yes, he was. End. Nothing that has happened since or will happen changes that. 

[repman 646]

I don't think Sargent looks any worse than he did under Smith, it's more that he went on a hot finishing streak at the start of the year scoring well above the xG value of his shots, post WC he's come back down to earth basically.

As for Wagner it seems like my big fears over him are coming true, we have next to no plan in possession. Our build up today practically consisted of giving it to Max and hoping he could carry it 20+ yards or play long and hunt the second balls. Wagner has improved us defensively but our weaknesses in possession mean we don't consistently get the ball into areas from which we can counter press. Football is as much about quantity as it is quality, the more of the ball you have in the opposition third the more likely you are to create chances, as well as less likely to give up chances.

[Yellow Green Army 243]

Sargent was on top form at the start of the season as a certain World Cup was on the horizon. (Wanted his position in the USA squad). Quite right to. 
That has now gone and along with his injury, he’s struggling to hit those heights again. 

[lake district canary 4,589]

Pukki is best when he has good technical players around him who can deliver intricate passes.  There are not enough of those in the team and Idah and Sargent struggle to do that. Yes they can put themselves about a bit and be a nuisance, but with both in the team at the expense of better technical players, Pukki is bound to struggle - he thrives on quality.

Sargent did well at the start of the season up front and that is where he needs to be. Idah too for that matter.  Once the injury situation clears a bit, we might see a better balanced team, but at the moment, it's not working. Three strikers on the pitch and not a shot on target from any of them.

 

 

[Mengo 826]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Certainly not as awful as was made out, but most sensible football people knew that. He had to go because the fans had decided but he certainly wasn't "the" problem.

However,  for all the poor performances from Dean Smith, and the mocking that came from him playing Sargent out wide and Wagner disagreeing with that...

Sargent has looked much less of a player under Wagner, hasn't he?

Unfortunately, the players rejuvenated under Wagner like Dowell and Onel are injured.

Pukki too - has looked far less effective in both goals and assists under Wagner.

I dont think this is massively surprising - I don't think Huddersfield were hugely freescoring under Wagner after all.

I sympathise with Wagner. He's missing a link between midfield and the front players - which sounds crazy when not long ago we felt overstocked at CAM.

So Hoggy. There has to be a common denominator in this circus 🎪.  I feel Wagner is a good manager, but just now we have a few players out.  What I can't get my head round is the lack of game time for gibbs who not so long back was the golden boy. Now I'm reading on other threads possible interference from a certain SD in team selection. I don't know. What I do know , things are not quite right and I think you know who I would blame for that. Just a gut feeling.

Change in some form is needed to progress. 

[hogesar 9,891]

31 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Pukki is best when he has good technical players around him who can deliver intricate passes.  There are not enough of those in the team and Idah and Sargent struggle to do that. Yes they can put themselves about a bit and be a nuisance, but with both in the team at the expense of better technical players, Pukki is bound to struggle - he thrives on quality.

Sargent did well at the start of the season up front and that is where he needs to be. Idah too for that matter.  Once the injury situation clears a bit, we might see a better balanced team, but at the moment, it's not working. Three strikers on the pitch and not a shot on target from any of them.

 

 

You're right re Pukki of course but even more so than that we don't have anyone playing in that gap between the midfield and attack who is capable of playing on the half turn. Of course, no Dowell or Nunez makes that even less so for us.

The amount of long balls to Pukki were criminal today and had it happened under Dean Smith would have been accompanied with very loud boos. 

[hogesar 9,891]

20 minutes ago, Mengo said:

So Hoggy. There has to be a common denominator in this circus 🎪.  I feel Wagner is a good manager, but just now we have a few players out.  What I can't get my head round is the lack of game time for gibbs who not so long back was the golden boy. Now I'm reading on other threads possible interference from a certain SD in team selection. I don't know. What I do know , things are not quite right and I think you know who I would blame for that. Just a gut feeling.

Change in some form is needed to progress. 

Yeah I like Wagner. To be honest we need to see 4 or 5 fresh faces into the first 11 next season to give fans new heroes. And to shake off the cobwebs from this season.

For Wagner right now, his biggest problem is how he gets us to play without a Dowell type player. We've scored once in our last 4 games.

[Norfolk Dan 308]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

Hmm. Really, there’s a reason Smith missed out on three division 1 jobs and is still unemployed!

As for Sargent, he’s been injured and only just back after a month out! Not sure any comparison can be made. To me the players in the squad have lost all believe and confidence, maybe given two relegations have knocked the stuffing out of the senior players which means lack of leaders on the pitch.

It also knocks the stuffing out of us fans! 

[Newtopia 522]

10 hours ago, hogesar said:

Certainly not as awful as was made out, but most sensible football people knew that. He had to go because the fans had decided but he certainly wasn't "the" problem.

However,  for all the poor performances from Dean Smith, and the mocking that came from him playing Sargent out wide and Wagner disagreeing with that...

Sargent has looked much less of a player under Wagner, hasn't he?

Unfortunately, the players rejuvenated under Wagner like Dowell and Onel are injured.

Pukki too - has looked far less effective in both goals and assists under Wagner.

I dont think this is massively surprising - I don't think Huddersfield were hugely freescoring under Wagner after all.

I sympathise with Wagner. He's missing a link between midfield and the front players - which sounds crazy when not long ago we felt overstocked at CAM.

For me Smith had to leave as there was no plan to what he did, it was always reacting and changing the side.  Consequently we looked turgid if luck did not go our way, and did not have a plan to break other aides down.

I think Sargent has not looked right since before the world Cup, and your point about the balance of the squad and key players missing aren't down to Wagner.  

My only fear with Wagner is the system relies on real top quality central midfielders, even more so than Farke, as the structure has less players in that critical area, plus one of the midfielders drops into the back line when we attack.  We have seen the game plan snuffed out quite easily with teams simply stopping us playing out but having more players in midfield, and us not being able to find the resultant space wherever that is.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,504]

Pukki is history. He won’t be here next year . What we are seeing is a shadow of his former self. 
Both parties know this. The bluff of him “considering” a contract in the summer is nonsense . He won’t be offered one and he doesn’t want one. 
No one is going to get a tune out of him, and if we had a fully fit and firing squad he wouldn’t be as involved as he is now. 
 

[Ken Hairy 3,834]

11 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Pukki is history. He won’t be here next year . What we are seeing is a shadow of his former self. 
Both parties know this. The bluff of him “considering” a contract in the summer is nonsense . He won’t be offered one and he doesn’t want one. 
No one is going to get a tune out of him, and if we had a fully fit and firing squad he wouldn’t be as involved as he is now. 
 

I sincerely hope he's not being offered a new deal, nothing worse than a club hero overstaying his welcome and putting in the kind of performances he now is. He's now in the player scenario that Worthy ended up in as a manager. (If that makes sense)?.

[TIL 1010 4,859]

10 hours ago, hogesar said:

Certainly not as awful as was made out, but most sensible football people knew that.

Yes he was and maybe you could describe what sensible football people look and sound like ? You know hoggy i thought you were mellowing from your fan bashing persona on here but it appears not.

[hogesar 9,891]

4 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Yes he was and maybe you could describe what sensible football people look and sound like ? You know hoggy i thought you were mellowing from your fan bashing persona on here but it appears not.

I was referring to all the support he got from football people I.e pundits and other coaches at that time.

Worth remembering the argument at the time was that we were 6th with a top 2 squad but I think we've all seen that we don't have that squad!

[Jason Shackell’s Limp Tack 89]

Yes Hoggy you do yourself no favours with language like this, makes you come across pretty supercilious.

[kingsway 94]

1 hour ago, Newtopia said:

For me Smith had to leave as there was no plan to what he did, it was always reacting and changing the side.  Consequently we looked turgid if luck did not go our way, and did not have a plan to break other aides down.

I think Sargent has not looked right since before the world Cup, and your point about the balance of the squad and key players missing aren't down to Wagner.  

My only fear with Wagner is the system relies on real top quality central midfielders, even more so than Farke, as the structure has less players in that critical area, plus one of the midfielders drops into the back line when we attack.  We have seen the game plan snuffed out quite easily with teams simply stopping us playing out but having more players in midfield, and us not being able to find the resultant space wherever that is.

From what I sasw yesterday I couldn't see no attacking plan at all, this would have been a stereotypical Dean Smith performance.

 

Sargent has certainly gone of the boil especially since the World Cup. It doesn't help that yesterday he was playing as the number 10 behind Pukki and constantly going wide and bizarrely any long balls were mostly aimed at Pukki whos not a targetman despite Sargent being exactly that!.

 

We need a central midfielder who can be the link toi attack and can play a ball through the middle which has been Pukkis bread and butter in the past. Yesterday there was a instance in the 2nd half when Norwich were attacking the Barclay end when Aarons got in a good advanced position in midfield and Pukki wanted a ball slipped through to him but of course Aarons couldn't see it.

[king canary 7,784]

30 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I was referring to all the support he got from football people I.e pundits and other coaches at that time.

Worth remembering the argument at the time was that we were 6th with a top 2 squad but I think we've all seen that we don't have that squad!

Pundits and coaches always back their mates. I doubt you can find a single example of a coach saying another manager is rubbish and should be sacked.

[hogesar 9,891]

24 minutes ago, king canary said:

Pundits and coaches always back their mates. I doubt you can find a single example of a coach saying another manager is rubbish and should be sacked.

Yeah but some keep quiet and don't bother commenting / getting involved. It felt many thought outside NCFC it was incredibly harsh. Like I said it had to happen because the fans had turned anyway, but I don't think we are significantly better off for it?

[mannings bandy legs 402]

1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

I sincerely hope he's not being offered a new deal, nothing worse than a club hero overstaying his welcome and putting in the kind of performances he now is. He's now in the player scenario that Worthy ended up in as a manager. (If that makes sense)?.

Pukki is our best player by a country mile.Only player who looks like he cares.Making runs,holding up ball and trying to make things happen. Problem being,the rest around him are not fit for purpose. When he leaves,and he will,probably to someone like Sheff. Utd,we have to replace him. Good luck with that.

[Ken Hairy 3,834]

3 hours ago, mannings bandy legs said:

Pukki is our best player by a country mile.Only player who looks like he cares.Making runs,holding up ball and trying to make things happen. Problem being,the rest around him are not fit for purpose. When he leaves,and he will,probably to someone like Sheff. Utd,we have to replace him. Good luck with that.

He WAS, he's not now and if you think he is then you haven't seen much of us since the World Cup.

[Ken Hairy 3,834]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah but some keep quiet and don't bother commenting / getting involved. It felt many thought outside NCFC it was incredibly harsh. Like I said it had to happen because the fans had turned anyway, but I don't think we are significantly better off for it?

Did they? I didn't really hear any outside of Norwich comment on the decision at all, to quote yourself they "kept quiet".

[TIL 1010 4,859]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

I was referring to all the support he got from football people I.e pundits and other coaches at that time.

Worth remembering the argument at the time was that we were 6th with a top 2 squad but I think we've all seen that we don't have that squad!

Well i could name you plenty of pundits and football coaches who come across as being far from sensible football people.

Edited April 2, 2023 by TIL 1010

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

I was referring to all the support he got from football people I.e pundits and other coaches at that time.

Worth remembering the argument at the time was that we were 6th with a top 2 squad but I think we've all seen that we don't have that squad!

You mean those in the profession. I do often question this. A pundit who hasn't seen us all season gets the gig with one our matches and starts telling US who is brilliant etc, and how we are lucky to have him. Players and managers do close ranks to criticism. But someone will be saying how unlucky Brendan Rogers was and needed more time and will jump at the chance to replace him.

But the fact is, DW has done no better than Smith. And yesterday could have been Smith on the sideline it was so reminiscent.

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,379]

6 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I sincerely hope he's not being offered a new deal, nothing worse than a club hero overstaying his welcome and putting in the kind of performances he now is. He's now in the player scenario that Worthy ended up in as a manager. (If that makes sense)?.

It’s a real shame that his twilight here has turned out this way. If he’d had someone half as good as Buendia for support this term his last season here would have been far more enjoyable both for him as a player and us as fans

[hogesar 9,891]

1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Well i could name you plenty of pundits and football coaches who come across as being far from sensible football people.

Of course but if this season pans out the way it looks like it might then they'll have had some evidence for the point they were making.

[yellowrider120 812]

6 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I sincerely hope he's not being offered a new deal, nothing worse than a club hero overstaying his welcome and putting in the kind of performances he now is. He's now in the player scenario that Worthy ended up in as a manager. (If that makes sense)?.

I thought it was common knowledge that Pukki HAS been offered a new contract (or extension to current one anyway) and said offer was made some time ago. He is 'sitting on it' (which is his prerogative of course). However, and I do agree about inadequate service supply to him, it is as clear as the brightest summers day that his decline is now well underway. To continue to shackle ourselves to him and pushing into the long grass AGAIN any real planning to replace him is sheer stupidity. 

Norwich City man has contract renewal offer on table ahead of summer expiry, but future remains unclear - The72

[TIL 1010 4,859]

46 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Of course but if this season pans out the way it looks like it might then they'll have had some evidence for the point they were making.

Have you known of any fellow coaches or pundits who have a footballing background  (either as a player or a coach for that matter ) hanging one of their own out to dry ?

[Duncan Edwards 2,278]

6 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah but some keep quiet and don't bother commenting / getting involved. It felt many thought outside NCFC it was incredibly harsh. Like I said it had to happen because the fans had turned anyway, but I don't think we are significantly better off for it?

*cough* Chris Hughton *cough* 

[CDMullins 463]

2 hours ago, yellowrider120 said:

I thought it was common knowledge that Pukki HAS been offered a new contract (or extension to current one anyway) and said offer was made some time ago. He is 'sitting on it' (which is his prerogative of course). However, and I do agree about inadequate service supply to him, it is as clear as the brightest summers day that his decline is now well underway. To continue to shackle ourselves to him and pushing into the long grass AGAIN any real planning to replace him is sheer stupidity. 

Norwich City man has contract renewal offer on table ahead of summer expiry, but future remains unclear - The72

Idah on Saturday,

Great chance to play the ball through 2 CB'S too him, the pass was a yard behind him.

Supports have wrote him off before and been made to look silly 

He's regressing for sure, but he's deadly around the box and it's a shame we haven't got anyone to get the ball to him.