What has happened to Hanley?

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nah, he's been deeply overrated for a sizable period of time in my opinion.

And you're welcome to it, but you have to acknowledge it is an outlier. Hanley was considered out second best player last season in both the POTS award and in a BBC poll, I suspect several thousand participated in both. And there are obviously lies, damn lies and statistics, but someone posted a thread here in the summer that showed Hanley put up better statistics in terms of combined aerial and ground dominance than van Dijk. And at the same time plenty of people were commenting that he was one of only two or three players who we needed to worry about leaving in the offseason.

Now, I suspect the same people who held the majority view I did, that Hanley was our second best performer last season, wouldn't start him next match.

[hogesar 9,693]

27 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And you're welcome to it, but you have to acknowledge it is an outlier. Hanley was considered out second best player last season in both the POTS award and in a BBC poll, I suspect several thousand participated in both. And there are obviously lies, damn lies and statistics, but someone posted a thread here in the summer that showed Hanley put up better statistics in terms of combined aerial and ground dominance than van Dijk. And at the same time plenty of people were commenting that he was one of only two or three players who we needed to worry about leaving in the offseason.

Now, I suspect the same people who held the majority view I did, that Hanley was our second best performer last season, wouldn't start him next match.

Yeah, I don't think you're far wrong.

I would probably start him next week but not as the left-sided CB.

[yellowrider120 765]

15 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

Gibson is decent on the ball.  Certainly has a good range of passing.  A seeming lack of confidence and his defensive concentration allied to a lack of pace is the worry there for me. 

I'd rather Gibson than Hanley in there though and the fact that he play left CB does add a little extra value in combination with Omo - I think they would complement each other well.  As would Lunghi if Gibson's form doesn't improve.

Agreed - BG would make a better, more vocal captain as well? He also talks more sense than the rest of the tools put together. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

40 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We had several seasons of Farkeball where we moved the ball quickly. Not quite quick enough in the EPL obviously. With Smith, it all seemed so much slower and deliberate. If nobody dropped deep for the ball then the opposition knew to press harder. Opposing teams aren't stupid, they know how we play.

Yesteday, I noticed when in possession at the back, AO went wide and Kenny dropped into the middle meaning we were moving it quicker with a midfield player on the ball than a CB. And AO seemed comfortable coming forward with it. But Hanley would run two or three steps and then turn the ball back with his right foot and look to pass back whereas AO was quite happy to progress.

Of course when the situation got tighter, Hanley's first thought was to pass it back to Krul. Yes it was an awful pass. But the real problem is that he hasn't any confidence other than a sideways or back pass.

Why do we always have to have two giants at the back? Couldn't one be like Beckenbauer. Competent at defending but talented at passing? Most teams play one striker and they aren't always big lumps. Sometimes its just as important to win the aerial balls in midfield as at the back.

The bit in bold only works if you have an exceptionally disciplined, rock-solid defender or two next to him. Beckenbauer might have got the plaudits, but he'd be the first to tell you that he needed the hugely underrated Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck quietly beavering away in his shadow at Bayern Munich, not to mention Berti Vogts to the right of him in that excellent 1974 West Germany team.

[king canary 7,609]

44 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And you're welcome to it, but you have to acknowledge it is an outlier. Hanley was considered out second best player last season in both the POTS award and in a BBC poll, I suspect several thousand participated in both. And there are obviously lies, damn lies and statistics, but someone posted a thread here in the summer that showed Hanley put up better statistics in terms of combined aerial and ground dominance than van Dijk. And at the same time plenty of people were commenting that he was one of only two or three players who we needed to worry about leaving in the offseason.

Now, I suspect the same people who held the majority view I did, that Hanley was our second best performer last season, wouldn't start him next match.

Yeah I'm happy to be an outlier on this one. But those stats are certainly nonsense.

I would counter and say anyone who genuinely thought a Premier League club was going to fork out good money for a 30 year old central defender who has spent the vast majority of his career in the Championship, after being a key part of a defence that conceded 84 goals wasn't engaging in much critical thinking.  

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

Hanley is the type of CB you want when you're backs to the wall defending most of the time in the PL. He's not so effective when we're playing on the front foot most of the time in the division below. He's still more than good enough for this level though still despite the fact he's had an iffy season so far 

[shefcanary 2,410]

I have been critical of Hanley on here almost since he signed, in my view I now welcome other people catching up with my long held opinion that if we truly want to be an EPL side, he should be ditched.

My personal view of his inherent weaknesses are now more visible to more fans now as age catches up on his physical capability. His on-field leadership skills are non-existent on the pitch (albeit I have to confirm I am in the school of Duncan Forbes, roll your sleeves up and give poorly performing colleagues a sharp reminder).

There were always chances of poor decision making from Hanley, which did manifest just as often in the past but he was capable of recovering, and as most would agree, his last ditch blocking and tackling were always very good. We just see a little less of the latter now.

His heading though! Yes, he does get his head to many balls into our box, but just like his heading in the opposition box, his inability to use his forehead to direct the ball has always been quite striking. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

49 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I'm happy to be an outlier on this one. But those stats are certainly nonsense.

I would counter and say anyone who genuinely thought a Premier League club was going to fork out good money for a 30 year old central defender who has spent the vast majority of his career in the Championship, after being a key part of a defence that conceded 84 goals wasn't engaging in much critical thinking.  

A lot of people not engaging in much critical thinking in voting him our second best player last season. A lot of commentators not engaging in much critical thinking in making up these transfer rumours.

Must be doing something right though three Championship winners medals in his locker. Maybe critical thinking ignores that?

[king canary 7,609]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

A lot of people not engaging in much critical thinking in voting him our second best player last season. A lot of commentators not engaging in much critical thinking in making up these transfer rumours.

Must be doing something right though three Championship winners medals in his locker. Maybe critical thinking ignores that?

You're reading things I'm not saying.

I didn't say people who voted him second in POTS weren't engaging in critical thinking. It was the apparent fear he was about to be snapped up by a Premier League club. It isn't so much to do with his ability (although I don't rate him as highly as others) but the fact he's a 30 year old we'd have wanted some decent money for. Premier League teams don't often go out of their way to pay good money for players at that age, at that stage of their career, unless they are proven at the top level, which he isn't. Just as people weren't queueing up to pay good money for Malky Mackay despite his impressive CV in the second tier. 

All I'm saying is it would have been a highly unusual move for a Premier League team to sign Grant Hanley, as it would have been a highly unusual move for a Premier League to come in and pay the likely £5m+ we'd have wanted for him.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Personally I'd prefer Hanley and ditch Gibson. Wagner likes a high line, and that's not going to get the best out of Gibson (might as well call him the Norwich Harry McGuire) at all - you need a pair of faster centre-halves to pull that off. Hanley's not the quickest at turning, but he's definitely quick when he gets moving.

There is part of me thinking "why not let Omo and Tomkinson have a go together?"

Just coach Hanley to go old-school on occasion, especially if Sargent's going to be the number one striker next season. No point launching long balls at Pukki unless they end up a channel ball by accident.

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

You're reading things I'm not saying.

I didn't say people who voted him second in POTS weren't engaging in critical thinking. It was the apparent fear he was about to be snapped up by a Premier League club. It isn't so much to do with his ability (although I don't rate him as highly as others) but the fact he's a 30 year old we'd have wanted some decent money for. Premier League teams don't often go out of their way to pay good money for players at that age, at that stage of their career, unless they are proven at the top level, which he isn't. Just as people weren't queueing up to pay good money for Malky Mackay despite his impressive CV in the second tier. 

All I'm saying is it would have been a highly unusual move for a Premier League team to sign Grant Hanley, as it would have been a highly unusual move for a Premier League to come in and pay the likely £5m+ we'd have wanted for him.

I don't think anyone expected a £5 million bid for him. The concern was that a promoted club or lower half EPL team chucked tested the club's resolve with a much lower bid and Hanley pressured the club to let him go. Given how well he played in a team that was dreadful last season, had he maintained that level there was no reason to doubt he could have done a job in a better back four behind a midfield that actually offered a bit of defensive assistance.

The iteration we have of Hanley this season wouldn't tempt many League One clubs. And that's what I find startling, the rate of the deterioration in form. Because despite what a few people who have probably never rated him so are suffering under a little bit of cognitive dissonance, he was a good player for us last year.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,327]

It wasn't just the pass yesterday, it's the fact that he stood there admiring his work, watched them have a chance smothered, jogged back abit then they scored and he just turned and strolled off without a care in the world it seemed.. the blokes obviously good enough to be a squad player or back up but there is no way he should be a starter week in - week out. 

That captains position should be far, far away from him...

 

Also, I can't believe how many times he 50p's it off the top of his head when heading the ball!! 

Edited January 9, 2023 by GodlyOtsemobor

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,434]

19 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Last season he was probably one of only two players (Pukki being the other) to come out of it with any real credit. Most of us were worried that another EPL club might come in for him and he'd leave us. Now I suspect most of wish that that is what had happened.

This is a valid question. 
 

What has happened to Hanley ? A decent defender in a championship winning team . Now , back in the same league , looks worse than he did ? Aside from another two years older (not even) what has happened to him? Also Max and Gibson. All look worse to me than under Farke !? 
 

said it previously , but the standard of coaching under Smith and Shakey seems demonstrably worse . Did anyone actually look better in their position under S and S than before? 

[king canary 7,609]

22 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

It wasn't just the pass yesterday, it's the fact that he stood there admiring his work, watched them have a chance smothered, jogged back abit then they scored and he just turned and strolled off without a care in the world it seemed.. the blokes obviously good enough to be a squad player or back up but there is no way he should be a starter week in - week out. 

That captains position should be far, far away from him...

 

Also, I can't believe how many times he 50p's it off the top of his head when heading the ball!! 

I found his powderpuff attempt to stop the second Luton goal similarly frustrating.

And yes he's one of the worst I've seen when it comes to attacking headers. The chances he gets from set pieces he should be good for 4-5 goals a season ala Malky Mackay, yet he's got 5 since he joined.

[The Raptor 1,211]

19 hours ago, Keith Scott said:

Hanley and Gibson are the worst centre backs in the division. Hanley reaching Russell Martin levels of captain calamity. When your leader on the pitch is the one continually costing you games you've got no chance. Hanley needs stripping of the captaincy and binning a.s.a.p. As does his partner in crime Gibson.

All the best. Big Keith Scott.

Who would be your choice for captain?

[Capt. Pants 4,252]

For some reason Andy O doesn't fancy being a left sided CB. It might be time to pair him with Gibson who appears a lot more comfortable on the left. There isn't much in it though between him and Hanley.

I don't think any of our CBs are close to Premier League quality but there all solid enough for the level we're at.

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

On 09/01/2023 at 13:16, king canary said:

I found his powderpuff attempt to stop the second Luton goal similarly frustrating.

And yes he's one of the worst I've seen when it comes to attacking headers. The chances he gets from set pieces he should be good for 4-5 goals a season ala Malky Mackay, yet he's got 5 since he joined.

Part of that surely is that we'd normally expect our CF to be the target man ?

[Barham Blitz 653]

On 09/01/2023 at 13:14, Graham Paddons Beard said:

This is a valid question. 
 

What has happened to Hanley ? A decent defender in a championship winning team . Now , back in the same league , looks worse than he did ? Aside from another two years older (not even) what has happened to him? 

I'd suggest two things.  Firstly we don't retain possession nearly as well as we did two years ago so there is more defending for him to do (and we also tend to lose the ball in worse positions than we did) and secondly he doesn't have a CDM of the quality of Skipp putting out fires in front of the defence before attacks get to him.

I've never been a massive fan.  If I remember correctly he was a bit of a panic signing when we shipped a few early season or had a few injuries but didn't really nail down a place and was behind Klose and Zimbo (and Godfrey?) for the first couple of years (from memory) which probably tells you what you need to know !

I'd definitely be tempted to cash in if there was any interest and he wouldn't be in my first choice XI if everyone was fit.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i think our Defenders have never looked comfortable playing it around at the back 

Man city Or Barcelona can but not Hanley and Krul 

i would not be sad to see any of our defenders leave 

maybe Big Andy O but others have had their chance 

even Aarons is nowhere near the player he once was maybe wagner can sort that but

you will be lucky to see him linked to massive clubs now 

 

 

 

[Barham Blitz 653]

On 09/01/2023 at 14:05, The Raptor said:

Who would be your choice for captain?

That is actually a very good question.  If we end up keeping him and he gets over his injury problems the standout candidate for me is Hayden. I said when we signed him he is very driven, came across as both tactically and emotionally intelligent in his Athletic interview and is the 'right' age and position.

If we don't, there aren't many other standout candidates - I don't like Keepers or Forwards as captains and the only other players pretty much guaranteed a start are either young or overseas players or both. 

Gibson if he gets his form back maybe, otherwise [puts tin hat on] it might end up being Kenny ...

We certainly lack leaders in this squad which is one of the problems that Wagner faces.

[Barham Blitz 653]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

i think our Defenders have never looked comfortable playing it around at the back 

 

 

That isn't true - Klose and Godfrey were both pretty comfortable on the ball at centre back for example as is Gibson (and as you have identified, Omo but I would also add Lunghi as well) - but the real difference is the lack of players in central midfield showing in the right positions and being comfortable enough to receive the ball on the half-turn to play a quick pass to another player moving into space.  This was the cornerstone of Farkeball. At least until last season.

It is also why Hanley in particular - especially in conjunction with the 4-3-3 / Smithball approach in general has been so disruptive.  Playing it around at the back is fine if it is opening spaces and is progressive.  If the ball isn't being worked forward either because of a lack of options (single pivot/ lack of movement) or because it is too slow (Hanley) we are just inviting pressure which will result in a turnover or a lump forward.

Just look at the highlights of the Man City win - high risk but high reward fast and progressive one and two touch playing out from the back in patterns where players just knew where to be and where the options were going to appear. 

And wasn't it awesome to see us playing like that ?!

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Barham Blitz

[norfolkngood 1,087]

46 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

That isn't true - Klose and Godfrey were both pretty comfortable on the ball at centre back for example as is Gibson (and as you have identified, Omo but I would also add Lunghi as well) - but the real difference is the lack of players in central midfield showing in the right positions and being comfortable enough to receive the ball on the half-turn to play a quick pass to another player moving into space.  This was the cornerstone of Farkeball. At least until last season.

It is also why Hanley in particular - especially in conjunction with the 4-3-3 / Smithball approach in general has been so disruptive.  Playing it around at the back is fine if it is opening spaces and is progressive.  If the ball isn't being worked forward either because of a lack of options (single pivot/ lack of movement) or because it is too slow (Hanley) we are just inviting pressure which will result in a turnover or a lump forward.

Just look at the highlights of the Man City win - high risk but high reward fast and progressive one and two touch playing out from the back in patterns where players just knew where to be and where the options were going to appear. 

And wasn't it awesome to see us playing like that ?!

 

 

I was talking about present players

godfrey is a great example 

started off a Cdm the moved back Same as lunghi something I liked 

very comfortable on the ball from playing midfield 

having a good midfielder showing is as you say very important to play that way 

I would still say Gibson ok on the ball but we need a good defender who is good on the ball 

I think Hanley would be a totally different player if he went back to clear the ball old fashioned Cb we don’t play that way but would suit him better ? 

[BroadstairsR 2,179]

At the beginning of the season, I thought our defence was fine. It turned out the opposite.

Even Krul has been dropped as he had been, particularly of late, not the 'keeper we knew.

They are nervy and have seemed clueless as to what to do with the ball.

We'll find out soon enough who to blame if Wagner manages to bring about improvement,

[kenfoggo 247]

It is too easy and lazy to claim that Henley’s disastrous back pass against Blackburn which threw the game was just an out of character aberration. He has increasingly become a liability rather than an asset. I have looked at the replay several times and his reaction after the back pass , his reaction is odd. It is as if he just shrugs as if it is a training ground slip up rather than a match defining error. Also I thought it quite telling that after the goal nobody has a word with him or can even bother to look in his direction. What was Hanley doing passing back under no pressure, without looking , without awareness of opposition player’s position?  Whatever is going to happen under Wagner he must surely realise that Hanley is due a rest, a spell on the bench or a loan out prior to sale. Hanley is not a leader of men and his constant selection as Captain is laughable.

[dylanisabaddog 4,933]

On 08/01/2023 at 18:11, Channon’s Windmill said:

It’s got to the stage that any back four with either Hanley or Gibson in is going to concede 9 times out of 10. He really shouldn’t be captain either.

No he shouldn't be captain but who should? The last genuine leader we had was Grant Holt. 

[Newtopia 517]

For me the captain is either Grant, Kenny, or Max.  Max seems ideal apart from being a bit grumpy sometimes and that personality can rub off on the team, we need someone resilient and leds by example.

[canarybubbles 1,923]

He's gone backwards, but almost everybody's gone backwards. I agree with the idea of a new start and let's see if Wagner can get them all back to what they used to be.

[shefcanary 2,410]

And here we have it, the grand split of opinion that shows the weaknesses in the squad again:

3 hours ago, kenfoggo said:

I have looked at the replay several times and his reaction after the back pass , his reaction is odd. It is as if he just shrugs as if it is a training ground slip up rather than a match defining error. Also I thought it quite telling that after the goal nobody has a word with him or can even bother to look in his direction.

Hanley is not a leader of men and his constant selection as Captain is laughable.

 

2 hours ago, Newtopia said:

For me the captain is either Grant, Kenny, or Max. ... we need someone resilient and leds by example.

In my opinion Hanley is neither resilient and leading by example is not one of his great strengths - as kenfoggo says he is strangely insular in his on-field persona.

But I also agree it is difficult to see who else is there to lead the team? If Omo gets a run I think he could be a candidate.  If Angus was given the captaincy, like his father before him it could bring out the best in him. Aarons would seem to have it in him to make his feelings clear, but think that may be counter-productive. Sargent could also be that Holt-like figure given more responsibility up front and not being pushed out to the wing. Kenny just shouts (and points) randomly and fear if he got it, we'd just end up with a team of headless chickens.

So having discussed it I can see why Hanley gets the role, it really is a dilemma! The lack of any obvious candidates underlines what a difficult task Wagner has inherited from Smith & Webber.

[Channon’s Windmill 327]

On 11/01/2023 at 07:46, dylanisabaddog said:

No he shouldn't be captain but who should? The last genuine leader we had was Grant Holt. 

For me Kenny, looks to be far more vocal, always a starter and the midfield is the best place for a captain imo.

[BroadstairsR 2,179]

It has to be Kenny McClean short of any othe suitable players for the role.

At least he's vocal, pointy and  more  likely to be picked than not, depite his shortcomings.