134 Days Ago.......

[TIL 1010 4,746]

Vincent Kompany walked into Turf Moor and took over a club that had been relegated and a team that was known as somewhat of a hoof ball side. Since then he has completely changed their approach and style of play but here at Norwich we have Dean Smith who has had over 340 days to arrest our slow decline and failed together with changing our style of play which is awful to watch and not successful either. We have lost passion, desire and togetherness with the fans as no doubt will be evident in the crowd atmosphere on Saturday v Stoke.

 

We are in a bad and sad place as a club.

[wesforprimeminister 25]

Said this exact thing to a friend last night.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,718]

Why arent we Burnley?

[TIL 1010 4,746]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Why arent we Burnley?

More to the point why aren't we the Norwich that we all know and love ?

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

Can I be the first to boooooooooooooo 

[hogesar 9,672]

This only kind of reinforces Til's point but Kompany also lost quite a few proven Premier League players and they didn't spend massive on replacing them.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I believe one of the reasons is as simple as our luck has run out. We have been getting away with it.

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

I was just looking at the Burnley squad. I was surprised to see such a high prevalence of English and Irish lads and of course a splattering of Belgians. I'm not saying they are guaranteed promotion but it's a style of play more easily transferable to the EPL, similar to how Fulham play now.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-burnley/kader/verein/1132

There was a lot of sarcasm on here about Burnley before the season started but Kompany and Bellamy are doing a fantastic job and are easily the best side we have played this season.

Why the hell couldn't we have done this rather than sign players who'll need months to aclimatise or were crocked, or both?

 

[chicken 2,624]

3 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

More to the point why aren't we the Norwich that we all know and love ?

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you Tilly old bean. That said, if we are truly honest about this, since the millennium there has been only two or three times we can truly describe as that.

Worthington - after the play-off final defeat, we started to regularly get much higher % crowds if not sell outs. Prior to that, crowds of 18-20k were typical at Carrow Road if my memory serves me correctly. I'd certainly been to midweek ties with 14-16k on several occasions in the late '90's.

We gained promotion and almost stayed up - as the players of the time attest, had we beaten Crystal Palace, which they feel we should have done, quite easily, we'd have been looking at another season of premier league football. In reality we were relegated and a lot of negativity flooded out, much to the bewilderment of many folks at the time, who had seen a decade of football in the old Division One (give or take) without so much as a sniff of promotion and dealing with some pretty bang average, at best, managers and approaches to football. Our club becoming transient for players coming and going. Very little identity as such. Worthington gave us that - though not in the same way or as strongly as we saw later. So for many, this in itself will be a 50/50.

Lambert - I truly believe this is the best football I have seen a Norwich team give us in any time post millennium. Lambert, Culverhouse and Karsa had this ability to identify players that were not individually world beaters but had that famous "inbetweeny" quality but also formed an incredibly well balanced squad in terms of when we had the ball Vs when we didn't. It wasn't always the prettiest, but that's because he, and the squad, knew that sometimes you have to be able to win ugly. They had football nous, that sense in the real world we call "street sense" as in, they could think on their feet, they knew they couldn't out play every team they faced, but also wouldn't accept defeat readily and were prepared to win at any cost. We had that for three seasons. And Lambert didn't need to get the crowd going after every game - swashbuckling football, we were willing shipmates to share in the plunder.

Farke - 1st season apart, he brought a consistent approach to our football. Very pleasing on the eye for the most part - even if we could be far from convincing in games. Typically, these games were against more physical sides. Something both he and Webber would often comment on. Arguably some of our best technical football as a squad could be seen in this time. Farke knew how to work the crowd (see Klopp and other managers in Germany), and the little quirks, he later adopted, in translation, helped to endear him (eg 'topics'). We were more together in promotion in 18-19, and during the parts of 20-21 we could see.

That "Norwich we all know and love" was different on each of those three occasions. People will pick their preference. But if you were to ask me, my honest response would be that the fans often divide before the football does and it tends to follow the experiences we have of premier league football. The one time it didn't was arguably when we sacked Hughton at the end of the season and despite mumbles and grumbles, people did seem to try and get behind Adams and give him a chance.

As good as the play-off final was, I don't think many would put Alex Neil in the same bracket as Lambert, Farke or Worthington. Had Lambert had the money Alex Neil had, I suggest he may have stayed, signed Benteke and Vlaar and we would have seen several seasons in the premier league under him, Culverhouse and Karsa.

On that note, I see Karsa is involved in a side doing well again at the moment... I wonder if anyone would think he would be a good shout for sporting director should Webber go?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

I do agree that Kompany has instilled a style of play there and they looked more coherent than us. He’s doing a decent job.

That said, what makes our position more frustrating is that even with us playing like utter sh*t and with little or no intensity, we very easily could have come away with a draw last night and we are capable of so much more. Which just goes to show how this division is there for the taking if we can sort ourselves out quickly.

that Burnley side is not a patch on our two recent promotion sides or the teams Leeds, Brentford and Wolves went up with. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,350]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Vincent Kompany walked into Turf Moor and took over a club that had been relegated and a team that was known as somewhat of a hoof ball side. Since then he has completely changed their approach and style of play but here at Norwich we have Dean Smith who has had over 340 days to arrest our slow decline and failed together with changing our style of play which is awful to watch and not successful either. We have lost passion, desire and togetherness with the fans as no doubt will be evident in the crowd atmosphere on Saturday v Stoke.

 

We are in a bad and sad place as a club.

I agree with you. So much so that I'm going to put this post in italics as a tribute. The comparison between Kompany's Burnley and Smith's Norwich was painful to watch last night. 

[Don’t be Krul 399]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I agree with you. So much so that I'm going to put this post in italics as a tribute. The comparison between Kompany's Burnley and Smith's Norwich was painful to watch last night. 

And I'll tell you why, its because there was no structure, no formation and Cantwell /Gunn aside very little desire. Like a poison seeping down......

 

SMITH OUT NOW

[nutty nigel 7,534]

That's a good summary of where we are. Let's hope 'we get our Norwich back' like we did when Neil Adams took over from Hughton😉

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I do agree that Kompany has instilled a style of play there and they looked more coherent than us. He’s doing a decent job.

That said, what makes our position more frustrating is that even with us playing like utter sh*t and with little or no intensity, we very easily could have come away with a draw last night and we are capable of so much more. Which just goes to show how this division is there for the taking if we can sort ourselves out quickly.

that Burnley side is not a patch on our two recent promotion sides or the teams Leeds, Brentford and Wolves went up with. 

That sorting out can only happen with a change of coach.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

Some Great coaches out there when Webber was Searching for Farke replacement 

that is why we should not narrow it down to ex Norwich players like Russell and Robins 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

That's a good summary of where we are. Let's hope 'we get our Norwich back' like we did when Neil Adams took over from Hughton😉

We never had a run as bad as the one we're on now under Adams.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

We never had a run as bad as the one we're on now under Adams.

I know we didn't.

[lake district canary 4,531]

We had a system of play, we had a togetherness, we had a man who was of great capability - and we let it all go.  Farke was tossed aside 11 games after one of our best seasons ever - and despite the pressures of the PL and our desire to do well there, he never had the players to make that happen.  We are paying the penalty for that short sightedness now.  Shocking as it was in the way he was sacked, to see there was no plan in place was worse - and we are where we are now.

A huge job for Smith - the next four games will decide his fate imo. If we don't improve then if Webber can make decisions like getting rid of Farke, he can do the same with Smith. 

[TheBaldOne66 682]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

We had a system of play, we had a togetherness, we had a man who was of great capability - and we let it all go.  Farke was tossed aside 11 games after one of our best seasons ever - and despite the pressures of the PL and our desire to do well there, he never had the players to make that happen.  We are paying the penalty for that short sightedness now.  Shocking as it was in the way he was sacked, to see there was no plan in place was worse - and we are where we are now.

A huge job for Smith - the next four games will decide his fate imo. If we don't improve then if Webber can make decisions like getting rid of Farke, he can do the same with Smith. 

And here we go again, Farke couldn’t make the step up, his record at the top was woeful, when will you get that into your head?

We had to change him, but the mistake wasn’t letting him go, it was the appointment of Smith. Nothing else.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

Just now, lake district canary said:

We had a system of play, we had a togetherness, we had a man who was of great capability - and we let it all go.  Farke was tossed aside 11 games after one of our best seasons ever - and despite the pressures of the PL and our desire to do well there, he never had the players to make that happen.  We are paying the penalty for that short sightedness now.  Shocking as it was in the way he was sacked, to see there was no plan in place was worse - and we are where we are now.

A huge job for Smith - the next four games will decide his fate imo. If we don't improve then if Webber can make decisions like getting rid of Farke, he can do the same with Smith. 

I think Webber was at fault smith was completely different style of play

Webber had years to make the change easier 

as soon as Farke had his style of play here Webber should have made a list of coaches same style 

just in case Farke left us or like it happen we sacked him 

Thats what he told us was different from a Manager a DOF with coach did not make massive changes 

 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

19 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I know we didn't.

So removing Smith for an Adams equivalent would be a good safe bet.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Vincent Kompany walked into Turf Moor and took over a club that had been relegated and a team that was known as somewhat of a hoof ball side. Since then he has completely changed their approach and style of play but here at Norwich we have Dean Smith who has had over 340 days to arrest our slow decline and failed together with changing our style of play which is awful to watch and not successful either. We have lost passion, desire and togetherness with the fans as no doubt will be evident in the crowd atmosphere on Saturday v Stoke.

 

We are in a bad and sad place as a club.

But they have married good player recruitment with a positive management recruitment.

I agree Smith has to go but 100% so does Webber. We need someone 100% comitted to the club who's focus is on building a strong 1st team squad. We also need a creditable management structure off the pitch.

Unfortunately I don't think we can afford ro sack Smith and his coaching staff plus I really don't want Webber choosing the next manager.

Club is in terminal decline and will be until we have fresh ideas and an owner with passion and vision 

 

[chicken 2,624]

2 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

I think Webber was at fault smith was completely different style of play

Webber had years to make the change easier 

as soon as Farke had his style of play here Webber should have made a list of coaches same style 

just in case Farke left us or like it happen we sacked him 

Thats what he told us was different from a Manager a DOF with coach did not make massive changes 

I'm not convinced we have seen "massive changes" - in fact, isn't that what most people feel about Smith? Since taking over, he hasn't been able to make a positive impact?

To quantify that some more, I don't believe for a second that Smith is a hoofball merchant. I do know that in footy, one of the easiest things to do if you're not feeling confident is hoof the ball. Hit it long, put it somewhere else, make it someone else's problem. If you put it in the ball park for a Pukki or Sargent to make something of it, even better.

If Smith was a hoofball merchant, Brentford wouldn't have taken him on, nor would Aston Villa. Brentford in many ways are running a very similar model to us. The main difference being that they already had invested in his successor at their club. In many ways, the best way to transition to a new head coach is to have others ready to step forward - see Dortmund with Klopp and a line of coaches behind him who went on to other things with degrees of success. 

The problem is that few managers were ever going to step in and be Farke of previous seasons because it isn't sustainable to play 100% that way in the premier league. Even Farke moved away from that last season which is why I think Smith was brought in.

Essentially, under Farke prior to last season our focus was mainly on ball retention and hoping that less of the ball meant opposition were starved of creating good opportunities. The biggest issue is that only really worked for one season to a degree that we were both more defensively stable as well as good going forwards and that was the last promotion campaign. The first we were mainly outscoring teams, many people commented upon how our defence still shipped goals that season.

Anyway, I digress. The issue I think we find with Smith is that for whatever reason, what he wants to be happening on the pitch isn't. And as people have quite rightly said, how long do you give someone who is struggling to get a side to not only play how the manager wants to but get success doing it? 

[Midlands Yellow 3,984]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Vincent Kompany walked into Turf Moor and took over a club that had been relegated and a team that was known as somewhat of a hoof ball side. Since then he has completely changed their approach and style of play but here at Norwich we have Dean Smith who has had over 340 days to arrest our slow decline and failed together with changing our style of play which is awful to watch and not successful either. We have lost passion, desire and togetherness with the fans as no doubt will be evident in the crowd atmosphere on Saturday v Stoke.

 

We are in a bad and sad place as a club.

Fans not even turning up who have paid for tickets should be added to the list. 

[Google Bot 3,275]

8 minutes ago, chicken said:

The problem is that few managers were ever going to step in and be Farke of previous seasons because it isn't sustainable to play 100% that way in the premier league. Even Farke moved away from that last season

Farke moved away from it to develop a more physical version of farke-ball - Except he was provided with players like Gilmour, so was never going to work.

It's not so un-sustainable if the recruitement is suitable.  Because you can train that style of play at youth level and have a constant regimented group of players coming through to replace those who flourish and leave for larger clubs.

We fell down as we questioned our own identity and failed to replace two key positions from the previous season.  I can't beleive anyone watched us against Burnley and feel this style of play is the better(?).

Edited October 26, 2022 by Google Bot

[chicken 2,624]

7 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Farke moved away from it to develop a more physical version of farke-ball - Except he was provided with players like Gilmour, so was never going to work.

It's not so un-sustainable if the recruitment is suitable.  Because you can train that style of play at youth level and have a constant regimented group of players coming through to replace those who flourish and leave for larger clubs.

We fell down as we questioned our own identity and failed to replace two key positions from the previous season.  I can't beleive anyone watched us against Burnley and feel this style of play is the better(?).

As we've already discussed, he is and was part of the recruitment process last season so shares his part of the failures of that recruitment and process last season which ever way you look at it.

I also don't think anyone watching the games this season will say we have actually deployed "this style" to any strong degree other than in phases of several games. In those phases we have looked good. However, we haven't been able to do it for longer than a single half. And there are a number of games where we have only managed one or two 10-15minute spells.

Again, like I say, this is the crux of it.

Last season doesn't matter now. This season matters. If Smith isn't getting the results and the best out of this squad, then the club is at the familiar juncture as last season. Stick - and hope that Smith gets this squad firing on all cylinders with a bit more time and to the degree that we at least challenge for a top two spot and finish in the play-offs, or, Twist - hope that they can find another coach who within a short space of time can turn the results around and in a way that endears the efforts to even the most critical of supporters.

That's as simple as it is. Doesn't matter about signings, we can't change that now, not to mention signings from 2021. As I said last time out, the longer results go against a manager/head coach, the less of a risk the "twist" option appears to become.
 

[Google Bot 3,275]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Last season doesn't matter now.

It matters a great deal, because you have to look at past failures to prevent making the same mistakes.

Last season shows that buying unknown players in quantities just puts more overhead on the manager that season, and that we need to be bringing in fewer, more quality players to support them in their job.

We also need to be strong in adapting a style of play here and not develop a system over 3-4 seasons to totally u-turning on it.  As we've further back than ever before.

We're basically chasing our own shadow at this point.  We need to look back at where it went wrong, and get back on the "right" track.

[lake district canary 4,531]

42 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

And here we go again, Farke couldn’t make the step up, his record at the top was woeful, when will you get that into your head?

And when will you get it into your head that Farke did not have the players to do it at the top level. What you have to ask yourself is who did the recruitment....

 

[Aggy 755]

3 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

 

 

We are in a bad and sad place as a club.

Are we? I’m too young to remember us being in the prem in the early 90s, so in the first 15 years of my time supporting the club we had as many seasons in league 1 as we did in the prem.

I can’t get too excited about how “bad” being 7th in the championship less than half way through the season, after having two of the last three years in the prem is. 

The recent results aren’t good enough and I never was a massive fan of Dean Smith’s appointment, but ‘bad and sad place as a club’ is overdoing it somewhat.

[chicken 2,624]

3 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

It matters a great deal, because you have to look at past failures to prevent making the same mistakes.

Last season shows that buying unknown players in quantities just puts more overhead on the manager that season, and that we need to be bringing in fewer, more quality players to support them in their job.

We also need to be strong in adapting a style of play here and not develop a system over 3-4 seasons to totally u-turning on it.  As we've further back than ever before.

We're basically chasing our own shadow at this point.  We need to look back at where it went wrong, and get back on the "right" track.

The main issue with this is that by all accounts... Bailey and one or two others... we went the route for trying to get in quality over numbers. Equally though, this wasn't exactly choice.

Not only that, our model IS to invest in "unknown players" and has been since day one of Webber's arrival. It's what the youth system is for, not just bringing through our own talent from younger ages but also to pick up 15-20yr old's that have been rejected/released by other clubs in the hope that they have done so pre-emptively, that a late developer (like Dublin) or at the very least, a player we could make use of is in there.

When you consider any of our players, how many of them are truly well thought of players?

So, when looking at the summer of 2021, as if to back up Bailey's article on other missed targets from the continent, who else do we know we went for? Armstrong, £15m who ended up at Southampton, we reportedly offered this but in instalments etc, Southampton offered £15m rising to £20m, proven championship scorer, hardly set Southampton alight. Ajer, we offered in the region of £12m but this was turned down despite the player publicly criticising the amount being asked in response to this, moved to Brentford for £13.5m. Josh King, available on a free but turned us down over wages, didn't massively help Watford (more an example of known player than big lay outs in fees). Billing, we reportedly had an offer accepted in the region of £15m but articles since suggest that Billing declined the move after the arrival of Parker.

I think it's fairly clear that after trying to land players of that ilk we ended up having to go for other options hence so many players arriving in August, some after the season had kicked off.

And THIS is why we can't say the issues now are from the summer of 2021. It doesn't change what Smith has to work with. Even if you argue it would have done, we can't change any of that until at least January. So it doesn't progress the question of whether changing the head coach will be a risk worth taking at this juncture.