Do you actually want promotion?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

5 minutes ago, Gibbo said:

There's always the hope

This is where we differ. I have lost all hope. The writing is on the wall that unless we have money to sign players of the calibre we need we will repeatedly flounder. We are at a point in this club's existence where I honestly believe we have come as far as we can with this ownership model. Therefore, for me, there is no hope, and promotion is a pointless endeavour.

Pointless until the financial landscape changes.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

I'd love for us to be promoted if next season we could compete to the point where after 5 games it's not obvious that we're going down, the last 4 relegations have been absolutely dire in that season. 

I genuinely think a season or two without a bounce back will be the kick up the árse that the current regime need! It's all become too complacent with the attitude of its ok we've been here before and bounced straight back etc.

[Robert N. LiM 4,406]

10 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

with this ownership model.

You picked a good day to run this thread. The first step to a new ownership model. 

It's not the despair, Laura ...

https://youtu.be/FfnhmuZ27eQ

[Gibbo 131]

5 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

This is where we differ. I have lost all hope. The writing is on the wall that unless we have money to sign players of the calibre we need we will repeatedly flounder. We are at a point in this club's existence where I honestly believe we have come as far as we can with this ownership model. Therefore, for me, there is no hope, and promotion is a pointless endeavour.

Pointless until the financial landscape changes.

That's a shame and I hope you can get some hope back in some way.  I think if I didn't have some hope for the future, I'd wonder why I bothered putting myself through it all 😞.  Looking at it big picture, I've recently witnessed 2 seasons where we've played some of the best football I've ever seen us play + half a season of being probably the best bottom placed prem team there's been.  Sure the relegations have been hard, but the hard times make the good times far more enjoyable when they come around.  

[paddycanary 539]

Sorry GMD, while I think I understand your point of view, I can't subscribe to it. Promotion is the target this year, anything else is failure. Two other teams would be coming up with us. If we do continue the yo-yo this year, we only need to be less shíte than 3 other teams in that first year. Extremely challenging, we are badly hamstrung by finance comparatively, but it is possible. The club have learnt from the last few chastening experiences (you would hope & assume) and if Smith & Shakey pull off another promotion, we have another crack at it. 

It may very well end up in another 20th position, but you have to be positive, and look to win every match, otherwise there really is no point. I find the astronomical amounts of money in the 'sport' disgusting/abhorrent/repulsive etc. but it is what it is. 

I'll be hoping for 3pts tonight and in every game thereafter. 

[mrdi 373]

35 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

So if you accept the consequence of promotion is likely to be a repeat of the last two PL campaigns (ie you accept that there is no reason to believe in a different outcome because under our current circumstances we have reached our ceiling), why on earth do you welcome it?

Because years of 2nd tier mid-table obscurity and borderline financial ruin were arguably worse. 

[TIL 1010 4,758]

1 hour ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Has anybody actually said they don’t want us to win games? No.

What the few have said is we don’t want to get promoted and be embarrassed yet again, as we have been the last 2 times.

Its yet again a case of not reading the replies properly.

If, and it’s a big if, we got promoted and at least gave it a good go to stay up as we did in Lamberts time, then I’m sure everybody would say yes.

Sadly, the mentality from within the club and the stands is it’s little old Norwich and we are happy to be in the Prem, rather than we are going to give it a real good go.

Under Lambert we had a philosophy running through the club we were as good as anyone else rather than that I’ve mentioned above. 
 

The whole mindset of the club, owners, board, players and fans needs to change as nowadays psychology plays a huge part in sport and it needs to be more positive rather than we can’t compete because we have very little money.

And also the recruitment needs to be a damn site better rather than as it was last time. 

TheBaldOne66 gets it.

[aBee 151]

1 hour ago, Danke bitte said:

Promotion all day long. Brentford are a prime example of a well run football club albeit with richer owners than ours. With American investment (hopefully) we won’t miss out on targets aka Ajer slightly out of our grasp currently. 

We won’t ever win the PL but we deserve to be competitive in it and we now find ourselves on the road to being so. Farkeball was great but a failed experiment at a higher level. So we go again but attempting a different style. It’s all a club like us can do. I’d love another run like we managed under Lambert and Hughton tbh as I’m sick of yo-yoing.

Matthew Benham’s wealth is a bit of a red herring. He carried the club through its operating losses from having a ground half the size of Carrow Road and no significant commercial revenue (ie two things Delia doesn’t need to worry about). Player trading made the big money and involved selling our best players every year until promotion (the season we went up we sold Watkins and Benrahma after losing the play off final to F**ham). Those players we sold were all bought well within the budgets you’d have had despite Delia being relatively poor. Since going up we’ve not spent loads (in 3 windows less than half what Forest have this summer). Last summer we didn’t spend more than you and only 4 of the 16 who played on Saturday weren’t with us in the Championship. 
 

There is no reason on purely financial grounds why Norwich couldn’t survive more than a season in the PL or why you should accept the defeatist mindset that relegation is inevitable. The really hard part is buying the right cheaper players and instead of selling on promotion, sell on relegation/missing promotion to give replacements a season in the Championship to bed in rather than throw them in at the deep end. And get rid of people with a defeatist attitude. You won’t survive if you ever again have a manager and team who don’t from day one believe you can give anybody a game. Even if it means being flexible enough to occasionally drop your commitment to beautiful football to kick it long intelligently to beat a press like Palace did at Anfield. 

[Gibbo 131]

1 minute ago, mrdi said:

Because years of 2nd tier mid-table obscurity and borderline financial ruin were arguably worse. 

Seeing Jarrett, Louis Jean, Hughes and that one trick pony from Scotland run around on the pitch, was definitely worse! 🙂

[TIL 1010 4,758]

1 hour ago, Nexus_Canary said:

This really.

Of course I want Norwich to be premier League but we would just be shafted by the media and league before a ball is kicked.

 

Does anybody really want to go through our last two seasons in the PL again ?

Does anybody want to cringe yet again when we are discussed on MOTD or 5Live etc ?

[Robert N. LiM 4,406]

2 minutes ago, aBee said:

Matthew Benham’s wealth is a bit of a red herring. He carried the club through its operating losses from having a ground half the size of Carrow Road and no significant commercial revenue (ie two things Delia doesn’t need to worry about). Player trading made the big money and involved selling our best players every year until promotion (the season we went up we sold Watkins and Benrahma after losing the play off final to F**ham). Those players we sold were all bought well within the budgets you’d have had despite Delia being relatively poor. Since going up we’ve not spent loads (in 3 windows less than half what Forest have this summer). Last summer we didn’t spend more than you and only 4 of the 16 who played on Saturday weren’t with us in the Championship. 
 

There is no reason on purely financial grounds why Norwich couldn’t survive more than a season in the PL or why you should accept the defeatist mindset that relegation is inevitable. The really hard part is buying the right cheaper players and instead of selling on promotion, sell on relegation/missing promotion to give replacements a season in the Championship to bed in rather than throw them in at the deep end. And get rid of people with a defeatist attitude. You won’t survive if you ever again have a manager and team who don’t from day one believe you can give anybody a game. Even if it means being flexible enough to occasionally drop your commitment to beautiful football to kick it long intelligently to beat a press like Palace did at Anfield. 

I think there's a lot of truth in this post, but with the greatest of respect I'd also note that it's easier to talk like this when you've had a really good season in the PL and a great start to your second one. We have taken a lot of punishment in the PL since promotion in 2015 and it's natural that a bit of defeatism has taken root.

[TheBaldOne66 693]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think there's a lot of truth in this post, but with the greatest of respect I'd also note that it's easier to talk like this when you've had a really good season in the PL and a great start to your second one. We have taken a lot of punishment in the PL since promotion in 2015 and it's natural that a bit of defeatism has taken root.

Why is it natural? Every season is a clean slate but this quote of yours is exactly what I alluded to earlier about defeatist attitudes! 
 

Each season we should be in a positive frame of mind not negative like too many are that are associated with the club. 
 

in the last couple of seasons at the top we’ve had Delia, Webber, even Farke giving off negative vibes before a ball is kicked!

I really hope this Attanasio guy changes the whole mindset associated with the club as he seems to know how to be successful 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

5 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Does anybody really want to go through our last two seasons in the PL again ?

Does anybody want to cringe yet again when we are discussed on MOTD or 5Live etc ?

But what are the alternatives?

Watch us tread water in the Championship? Watch us lose in the Playoffs? We've seen both happen over the last couple of decades: the former is just grim and the latter is incredibly gutting.

Granted, seeing us get pumped in the Premier League isn't great either. But at least it comes with an exciting promotion. The other options come with the suffering but no pleasure.

And besides, if we're going to fail, it's surely better to fail at the highest level we can, rather than a lower one?

[Gibbo 131]

3 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Does anybody really want to go through our last two seasons in the PL again ?

Does anybody want to cringe yet again when we are discussed on MOTD or 5Live etc ?

Ignore the noise 🙂.  Each season is a clean slate to quote TheBaldOne66. Plenty of times in football when a team has had a shocker of a season and followed it up with a great one, despite no huge changes - small things can happen, a bit of luck here and there and momentum can build, like when we were favourites for relegation in 92.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

6 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Wonder how much this splits the fans. Premier League football these last two times has been utterly depressing. The club has been slagged off, the football has been turgid. We got to play with the top clubs, but really we werent ever competing. I dont enjoy football like that. Watching inept, ineffective play resulting in poor results. Without a change in ownership and therefore financial power, I do not see how that ever changes in the Premier League, so personally I dont long for it's return.

Id prefer for us to be a successful club in the championship until something changes that means we have a hope of competing in the Premier League. Id like us to be in and around the play-offs, without necessarily being too fussed if we go up or not, like Premier League football is everything.

What about you? Promotion and Premier League football no matter what? Or successful entertaining football at an appropriate level for our club?

Right now I dont think the Premier League is our level, or ever really can be with our ownership model. If we acquired the finances to be able to compete however, bring it on.

With Attansio on board to fund and underwrite a £100m net splurge upon promotion to actually for once try and stay up then yes.

[TIL 1010 4,758]

7 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

 

I really hope this Attanasio guy changes the whole mindset associated with the club as he seems to know how to be successful 

I shall be keeping all my fingers and toes crossed.

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

It's not that I cant take losing, I just enjoy a fair fight. Would you enjoy watching a heavy-weight smashing a feather-weight into the ground every week, or a good contest between two middle-weights?

Many would argue we are the Championship heavyweight. It’s hard to look at our squad and compare it to many others in this league and think it’s a fair fight to me.

I still like the upsets personally, yes we were easily one of the weakest teams in the PL last year, but we could have made it more of a challenge.

Part of that is mentality, if we think we are going to get smashed each week by such mighty teams as Brighton and Leeds it becomes self fulfilling.

Theres a half a dozen teams in the PL we take any points off it’s a bonus. The other 13 rate from tough challenges to winnable. Relegation from the PL is inevitable for a club out size, just a case of when and how. 

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

I think with today's news,  it gives us a bit of hope that any future promotions may play out differently to the last 3, I mean they might not but at least there's hope now. 

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Because the question is in reality very silly. I expect us to win every game. Its what I hope every supporter thinks. Reality says we won't or Blackburn wouldn't have lost midweek. I am disappointed if we draw and upset if we lose. I am not one who sits there with us winning 2-0 tonight wanting us to shut up shop. No, lets win 4-0. So success on the pitch is my nirvana.

That of course would lead to promotion. And the way the club is set up at the moment would likely bring a season of defeat after defeat once again. And of course that means relegation. And while there is no harm in a season of success followed by a season of failure, I think most would accept it, it isn't creating a dynasty.

I was talking to a Palace supporter yesterday and he remarked as everyone does about us as a yoyo club. I replied that at least we had won something. He said he couldn't care less, its all about being in the EPL.

I would find it strange if the majority of our supporters took that attitude. I firmly believe they want something more esoterical for our club.

So of course  I wouldn't vote no, I wouldn't vote at all actually. But we do have to face up to it that as much as people want to be loyal to the club and the owners in particular, I personally believe we are nowhere near in any position for a transition to the next level of football which is dominated by one thing and that is money. We proved in the first DF promotion that it doesn't come down to money in the Championship to win it. But it surely does when you get up there. And as someone said, we are only another Maddison away from problems.

I will be sat in front of the screen kicking every ball tonight and wanting us to put six past this lot. Take one game at a time and enjoy the special moments. If we get enough of them its good.

And its not a criticism as some always seem to think. Its just an opinion.

I’m genuinely interested in your opinion, it just seems a bit contradictory to me, but I do understand a bit better from the above.

The only thing I’d say is, isn’t winning the Championship/playoffs repeatedly that dynasty? Especially when it results in improving the club overall with that success.

If we end up in the Championship for a prolonged period are we really any different from that Palace fan? It’s just a different level and motivation. What dynasty is created by that?

If the result of us winning repeatedly in the Championship is a season of bravely struggling against the realities of finance in the PL I don’t mind as long as we give that a fight. The last two times we just seem to have meekly accepted that we aren’t good enough to be there, maybe we aren’t, but give it a go.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

39 minutes ago, Gibbo said:

Seeing Jarrett, Louis Jean, Hughes and that one trick pony from Scotland run around on the pitch, was definitely worse! 🙂

Yeah but Gilmour isnt here anymore 😉

[Mr Angry 1,566]

3 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Yeah but Gilmour isnt here anymore 😉

He didn't have any tricks 😂

[Cornwall Canaryfan 16]

I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if my points have already been raised. 

I want to see us promoted to the top division & to establish ourselves as worthy, regular members. It is what a city like Norwich deserves & the club ground & facilities strongly suggest that playing at the highest level is both attainable & desirable. 

The whole point of playing football with the kind of material &, yes, financial setup we have is to try & rise to the top levels of the game. What is the point otherwise for a club of our size?

I think it will be a long time until we see another Leicester seriously challenge for the title, baring a financial  calamity so great that even top football clubs are affected. So to progress much the same as we are & challenge for the title is totally unrealistic. But I do think that it is not out of the question to expect the club to work towards promotion for more than a season at a time &  to aim for serious runs in the cup competitions.

Even without major new investment I think this is aiming high but is a reasonable expectation.

[nutty nigel 7,542]

What a lot of drama queens 😂 

Have you thought which games you only want to draw? 

Edited August 19, 2022 by nutty nigel

[smooth 114]

100%

Each season you start with fresh players, coaching principles, techniques to be the best you can.

Right now we have a group can be one of the best in this league. We have improved our academy and producing young talent that I hope provide first team players but also finances to help us achieve goals in other markets to buy established players. We will continue to look at better players than we have and we will learn about recruitment. 

This club can be promoted and I want to see that desire every minute across the club. We can achieve this and I hope we build something now. We should be learning each season and I hope we have learnt from the last few years.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

33 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I’m genuinely interested in your opinion, it just seems a bit contradictory to me, but I do understand a bit better from the above.

The only thing I’d say is, isn’t winning the Championship/playoffs repeatedly that dynasty? Especially when it results in improving the club overall with that success.

If we end up in the Championship for a prolonged period are we really any different from that Palace fan? It’s just a different level and motivation. What dynasty is created by that?

If the result of us winning repeatedly in the Championship is a season of bravely struggling against the realities of finance in the PL I don’t mind as long as we give that a fight. The last two times we just seem to have meekly accepted that we aren’t good enough to be there, maybe we aren’t, but give it a go.

I suppose its fine margins. I think of a dynasty as around 8-10 years. I think if we had stayed up in 2013 we might have progressed. I think it was still possible for a club like us then. I feel today it is purely the wealth of the owner. That may well alter again and I am hoping the ESL initiates that change.

Listening to the Palace fan it seemed an attitude of being in the EPL means you belong, you are superior. I doubt there are more reasonably happier clubs or sets of supporters than us. I think we are happier to belong to us rather than where we play.

Hopefully today's announcement might be a catalyst for the change we all probably crave for.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

9 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

What a lot and of drama queens 😂 

Have you thought which games you only want to draw? 

Cardiff and Hull for starters😀

[nutty nigel 7,542]

6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Cardiff and Hull for starters😀

You can't dine out on them all season. 😂

Anyway, checking back you certainly weren't happy not winning...

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

Yes and I can accept being relegated given our budget. However, we've got to find a way of being more competitive and the final points haul looking less embarrassing. If we go up again, get relegated on 33 points and look more competitive in games, get some good results and not be utterly embarrassing both defensively and in front of goal I'd be okay with that and consider it progress. As others have pointed out already we need the cash injection to keep us at a level where we can be one of the top sides in this league when we go down. If we stay in this league too long the money will dry up and we'll be looking at mid table finishes which is even worse than where we are now. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

8 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

You can't dine out on them all season. 😂

Anyway, checking back you certainly weren't happy not winning...

No I wasn't. Because to me its all about the performance on the day. And we should have done better. In fact we have been the better team in all four league games. If we have enough good ones we will be promoted. Nobody wants us to lose or draw. That is why I didn't answer the OPs question. It doesn't make sense to say you want your team to be unsuccessful.

The differences in opinions are some are saying we wouldn't survive and others are saying we might. Both are conjecture. What isn't conjecture is that it gets harder every season to survive let alone compete in the EPL. So the question should well have been more akin to would you take seventh in the table this season? Is that a good season?

[nutty nigel 7,542]

7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

No I wasn't. Because to me its all about the performance on the day. And we should have done better. In fact we have been the better team in all four league games. If we have enough good ones we will be promoted. Nobody wants us to lose or draw. That is why I didn't answer the OPs question. It doesn't make sense to say you want your team to be unsuccessful.

The differences in opinions are some are saying we wouldn't survive and others are saying we might. Both are conjecture. What isn't conjecture is that it gets harder every season to survive let alone compete in the EPL. So the question should well have been more akin to would you take seventh in the table this season? Is that a good season?

Who knows. It's all conjecture. What isn't conjecture is that I want us to win every game. Another thing that isn't conjecture is that if you don't dwell on the disappointments our club has progressed markedly since 2015. The future will be what the future will be. We might not even be here to see it.

Back to tonight...

We're 3 points off 4th so to be safe would a draw be better than winning😉