Do you actually want promotion?

[Rivvo 257]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Monty you must remind me how we have progressed in our last three promotions going back to 2015 and the Play Off Final.

Well considering we are now in the Champs I can’t remember the last time we bought players with the price tags of Nunez and Sara and loaned a player with  the pedigree of Hayden at this level, Huckerby/Crouch maybe? But much less of a financial outlay?
 

[ricardo 7,328]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

For me, being a yo-yo club is far more appealing than being a nothing club.

👍

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

Absolutely do want promotion, but not remotely interested in survival at all costs once promoted. The key to establishing in the Premier League eventually will be just keep going again and again until we catch a break rather than stressing about survival every time we go up. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Robornio 106]

This is a bit a silly question, as how can anyone be a true supporter, if they don’t hope for success? What you’re getting at is the common concept of “fear of failure”. What we should be asking ourselves is what do we need to do to increase our chances of success? You could use a basic outcome process to develop a strategy…

On promotion, what is our goal? To stay up.

Is this likely in current circumstances? Unlikely.

What do we need to do to be successful in this? A better calibre of players and an astute leader.

How can we achieve this? Investment and sound judgement on recruitment.

Is this achievable? Possible.

What other controllable factors can assist? A change to the league and a fairer limit on financial spending. 

Is this likely? No. 

What is the alternative? Source other income methods to compete.

With every challenge there’s a chance. You just have to work out the ways to achieve it, decide upon the most likely to succeed and then go for it. I think we’re now getting there (touch wood), but it’s just a shame it took so long to realise it.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Robornio

[Gibbo 131]

Hypothetically, if your clubs model was to finish 3rd in the champs every year and not get promoted, there's only one way that's going to go over time anyway... south.  

No premier league cash to fund bringing in up and coming young players and a gradual erosion of the 1st team like when we year on year traded down Ashton for Earnmore for Cureton...  or Francis->Etuhu->Jarrett.

[Monty13 2,229]

1 hour ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

No, not mid-table, a team winning more often than not and finishing high up the table, consistently. Rather than being the best team in the league one season, and the shi ttest the next

That just seems an odd way of looking at it to me, basically you are saying you don’t like us losing so we shouldn’t try.

I don’t mind us losing, losing is inevitability of pitting ourselves against the best teams, it’s the manner of that in the last two PL seasons that’s frustrated and upset me.

Its very difficult to sustain what you are saying, a team that finishes 3rd but doesn’t get promoted loses players and has far less money than a yo-yo club. A team that doesn’t get promoted for a sustained period of time is likely destined to fade away into obscurity.

[Mr Angry 1,542]

I really hope that this poll is in no way representative of our wider fanbase. I'm not sure how I would feel watching a game in the Championship, knowing that 20% of the 'support' didn't actually want us to get promoted,

[nutty nigel 7,506]

5 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

I really hope that this poll is in no way representative of our wider fanbase. I'm not sure how I would feel watching a game in the Championship, knowing that 20% of the 'support' didn't actually want us to get promoted,

Of course it's not. It's yet another vehicle for the moaners...

😉

[Pyro Pete 1,886]

Of course I want to see us promoted.

But, like others, I have little faith in Webber's ability to keep us there. I think he should have moved on and a successor appointed.

But I always want to see us win, regardless.

[LaUnionCanary 85]

3 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Monty you must remind me how we have progressed in our last three promotions going back to 2015 and the Play Off Final.

Perhaps you should check our financial situation now, brought about by those promotions TIL. without them our squad would be far less appealing.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Just now, LaUnionCanary said:

Perhaps you should check our financial situation now, brought about by those promotions TIL. without them our squad would be far less appealing.

Progression 👍

And maybe see how other clubs have fared. Clubs with no ambition to progress.

I can't be going tonight hoping we don't win in case it leads to promotion.

What a state to get in...

😉

[TheBaldOne66 681]

Has anybody actually said they don’t want us to win games? No.

What the few have said is we don’t want to get promoted and be embarrassed yet again, as we have been the last 2 times.

Its yet again a case of not reading the replies properly.

If, and it’s a big if, we got promoted and at least gave it a good go to stay up as we did in Lamberts time, then I’m sure everybody would say yes.

Sadly, the mentality from within the club and the stands is it’s little old Norwich and we are happy to be in the Prem, rather than we are going to give it a real good go.

Under Lambert we had a philosophy running through the club we were as good as anyone else rather than that I’ve mentioned above. 
 

The whole mindset of the club, owners, board, players and fans needs to change as nowadays psychology plays a huge part in sport and it needs to be more positive rather than we can’t compete because we have very little money.

And also the recruitment needs to be a damn site better rather than as it was last time. 

[mrdi 373]

Absolutely, yes. Even though I have zero appetite for another PL campaign like last year’s, which realistically is what the expectation would be. 
 

 

[AJ 1,218]

I just want to watch good football again, like we were playing under Farke the last two promotion seasons.

I'd love us to survive in the PL, but getting tonked every week and parking the bus isn't worth the entry fare. But the aim of the game is winning, and another trophy in our cabinet is definitely the aim again this season

[Mello Yello 2,273]

Much rather have a bottom 4 relegation scrap this season, and ultimately we eventually survive by the thickness of our shirts.....It'd be a lot more tense, exciting and bleedin' good fun....Promotion is so last year....

[Danke bitte 965]

Promotion all day long. Brentford are a prime example of a well run football club albeit with richer owners than ours. With American investment (hopefully) we won’t miss out on targets aka Ajer slightly out of our grasp currently. 

We won’t ever win the PL but we deserve to be competitive in it and we now find ourselves on the road to being so. Farkeball was great but a failed experiment at a higher level. So we go again but attempting a different style. It’s all a club like us can do. I’d love another run like we managed under Lambert and Hughton tbh as I’m sick of yo-yoing.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,774]

23 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Has anybody actually said they don’t want us to win games? No.

What the few have said is we don’t want to get promoted and be embarrassed yet again, as we have been the last 2 times.

If the question was 'do you want promotion and to get embarrassed?', then there would be a unanimous 'no'.

But that wasn't the question. The question was 'do you want promotion?', and more than 15% have said no.

Those people obviously want us to lose some games. It's impossible to want us to win every match and at the same time want us to not be promoted. 

If you want us to not be promoted, you have to want us to lose games. There is no other option.

[TheBaldOne66 681]

2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

If the question was 'do you want promotion and to get embarrassed?', then there would be a unanimous 'no'.

But that wasn't the question. The question was 'do you want promotion?', and more than 15% have said no.

Those people obviously want us to lose some games. It's impossible to want us to win every match and at the same time want us to not be promoted. 

If you want us to not be promoted, you have to want us to lose games. There is no other option.

46 draws would see us not promoted so it isn’t correct to say people want us to lose! 
 

Or a combination of draws and wins so your logic is incorrect 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

The question was do you want to get promoted though? If you don’t, then why do you want us to try? It wasn’t would you be happy if we weren’t.

Because the question is in reality very silly. I expect us to win every game. Its what I hope every supporter thinks. Reality says we won't or Blackburn wouldn't have lost midweek. I am disappointed if we draw and upset if we lose. I am not one who sits there with us winning 2-0 tonight wanting us to shut up shop. No, lets win 4-0. So success on the pitch is my nirvana.

That of course would lead to promotion. And the way the club is set up at the moment would likely bring a season of defeat after defeat once again. And of course that means relegation. And while there is no harm in a season of success followed by a season of failure, I think most would accept it, it isn't creating a dynasty.

I was talking to a Palace supporter yesterday and he remarked as everyone does about us as a yoyo club. I replied that at least we had won something. He said he couldn't care less, its all about being in the EPL.

I would find it strange if the majority of our supporters took that attitude. I firmly believe they want something more esoterical for our club.

So of course  I wouldn't vote no, I wouldn't vote at all actually. But we do have to face up to it that as much as people want to be loyal to the club and the owners in particular, I personally believe we are nowhere near in any position for a transition to the next level of football which is dominated by one thing and that is money. We proved in the first DF promotion that it doesn't come down to money in the Championship to win it. But it surely does when you get up there. And as someone said, we are only another Maddison away from problems.

I will be sat in front of the screen kicking every ball tonight and wanting us to put six past this lot. Take one game at a time and enjoy the special moments. If we get enough of them its good.

And its not a criticism as some always seem to think. Its just an opinion.

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

4 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Only with about 15 new players and a new head coach so a no from me.

This really.

Of course I want Norwich to be premier League but we would just be shafted by the media and league before a ball is kicked.

 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,073]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

So you want us to keep winning but not be promoted?

Now you're getting it. I want us to play in a league where we can compete.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,073]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I cannot conceivably vote no, so the answer is - and must always be - yes. 

The players are professional sportsmen, highly competitive, with other teams, with each other, with themselves. Any hint of a no mentality makes success virtually impossible. 
 

As the very well paid golf psychologist Dr Bob Rotella likes to (wisely) say:

’..positive thinking is not 100% successful, but negative thinking always is..!…’

Parma 

 

You're talking about the players. Im talking about the fans. Fans whose investment is the entertainment value of the sport, the feelgood factor of seeing the club progress. Premier League football at this club is the antithesis of this. There is no feelgood factor. I was heartbroken when Worthy's team got relegated, because right up until the final day it was in our hands to bravely escape. Relegations like that, thought they hurt, offer hope.

Our relegations just offer misery and futility. There is nothing to get out of it as a fan.

Relegations where we give it a damn good fight are not what we have endured these last two times. Because we are hopelessly out-gunned. And I dont want any more seasons of that. Remember, this season we were supposed to have some bazookas etc and we were even worse.

The players of course have to have ambition - Im not talking about them. Im talking about us, the fans, and our experience.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,073]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

That just seems an odd way of looking at it to me, basically you are saying you don’t like us losing so we shouldn’t try.

I don’t mind us losing, losing is inevitability of pitting ourselves against the best teams, it’s the manner of that in the last two PL seasons that’s frustrated and upset me.

Its very difficult to sustain what you are saying, a team that finishes 3rd but doesn’t get promoted loses players and has far less money than a yo-yo club. A team that doesn’t get promoted for a sustained period of time is likely destined to fade away into obscurity.

It's not that I cant take losing, I just enjoy a fair fight. Would you enjoy watching a heavy-weight smashing a feather-weight into the ground every week, or a good contest between two middle-weights?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,073]

1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

I really hope that this poll is in no way representative of our wider fanbase. I'm not sure how I would feel watching a game in the Championship, knowing that 20% of the 'support' didn't actually want us to get promoted,

Id love us to get promoted if I thought there was any possibility that at the end of it lay a season where we could compete. 

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. 

There is no reason to believe that were we to play in the Premier League next season it wouldnt be an abject failure like the last two. Im not interested in taking a path that leads there - what is in it for me as a fan, it simply destroys my love of football.

Until we have a hope of competing in the Premier League, which is inextricably linked to our finances, Im not interested in it.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

So what do you get out of going to games hoping we don't keep winning and get promoted? 

I'm seriously baffled. 

And over the last few years we have an progressed. There are plenty who get promoted, then relegated, then remain reasonably competitive in the Champs. Since 2015 Middlesbrough, Cardiff and Huddersfield spring to mind. Is that ultimately want people want if they don't want promotion?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,073]

1 hour ago, mrdi said:

Absolutely, yes. Even though I have zero appetite for another PL campaign like last year’s, which realistically is what the expectation would be. 
 

 

So if you accept the consequence of promotion is likely to be a repeat of the last two PL campaigns (ie you accept that there is no reason to believe in a different outcome because under our current circumstances we have reached our ceiling), why on earth do you welcome it?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,073]

54 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Promotion all day long. Brentford are a prime example of a well run football club albeit with richer owners than ours. With American investment (hopefully) we won’t miss out on targets aka Ajer slightly out of our grasp currently. 

We won’t ever win the PL but we deserve to be competitive in it and we now find ourselves on the road to being so. Farkeball was great but a failed experiment at a higher level. So we go again but attempting a different style. It’s all a club like us can do. I’d love another run like we managed under Lambert and Hughton tbh as I’m sick of yo-yoing.

Brentford is a good example though. We werent prepared to go the extra mile to secure his signing, and hence Brentford beat us to him. The only players we signed were players we barely had to compete for. 

Realistically we have little to offer players at Premier League level. We wont pay the fees, we wont pay the wages. Norwich isnt an exciting place for young ambitious men to be. Premier League football probably means very little if you're getting stuffed every week. PL rivals almost all have better stadia and facilities.

If we wont pay the wages necessary to tempt players, nothing else will see them choose us over any other PL rival.

Brentford have money and ambition we dont. THAT's why we're not Brentford - as is the perpetual question

[Gibbo 131]

Just because it's likely, doesn't mean staying up is impossible.  There's always the hope, that we can assemble a team that is able to perform greater than the sum of it's parts.  Just because it hasn't happened the last couple of times, doesn't mean it can't happen again.  Lamberts team would have been dead certs for relegation on paper and they stayed up relatively comfortably in the end. 

Aim for the stars and you might hit the moon... but if you're just aiming for the moon then you might never take off.  Or something like that...

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, Gibbo said:

Just because it's likely, doesn't mean staying up is impossible.  There's always the hope, that we can assemble a team that is able to perform greater than the sum of it's parts.  Just because it hasn't happened the last couple of times, doesn't mean it can't happen again.  Lamberts team would have been dead certs for relegation on paper and they stayed up relatively comfortably in the end. 

Aim for the stars and you might hit the moon... but if you're just aiming for the moon then you might never take off.  Or something like that...

But isn't admitting to being a self financing club that the ambition doesn't run to debt?

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,774]

29 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Now you're getting it. I want us to play in a league where we can compete.

But not compete too well, clearly.