Liverpool fans again

[Newtopia 517]

I am sure there were fake tickets sold to Liverpool and Madrid fans.   I suspect the Liverpool fans were dealt with more firmly based on reputation.  Only a few fake tickets would have caused delays, but some people there made it sound like they were in queues for over an hour, and surely there was a way to funnel out any fans with problems scanning or with fake tickets.  The organisation looked poor, reaction was heavy handed, and surely someone who was in charge must have realised something was going wrong.

i can’t get my head around people turning up without tickets, surely forcing your way in will never make sense in all seater stadiums. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, Newtopia said:

I am sure there were fake tickets sold to Liverpool and Madrid fans.   I suspect the Liverpool fans were dealt with more firmly based on reputation.  Only a few fake tickets would have caused delays, but some people there made it sound like they were in queues for over an hour, and surely there was a way to funnel out any fans with problems scanning or with fake tickets.  The organisation looked poor, reaction was heavy handed, and surely someone who was in charge must have realised something was going wrong.

i can’t get my head around people turning up without tickets, surely forcing your way in will never make sense in all seater stadiums. 

My experience of living in Liverpool and hearing / observing what goes on in the pubs there, I’m sceptical many were duped into buying fake tickets. More likely they knew and thought once they got far into the checkpoints, they had a chance of making it past lax security.

[yellowrider120 762]

Every report I've seen focuses on the issues with Liverpool fans- thousands in Paris without tickets, crowded around stadium gates, police pepper spraying them etc. I've no doubt that rhe Authorities took an overly robust response but ask yourself this - where are all the reports / media coverage of similar scenes involving Madrid fans? You have your answer. 

At the FA Cup Funal it was the Royal Family who were to blame, the FA were to blame, various Tory governments were to blame. In Paris it was UEFA who were to blame, French police were to blame, it was the stadiums fault etc. In 2007 in Athens it was the same as back in 1985. Yet still no-one has the courage to challenge the 'entitled' culture that has emanated from Merseyside foe decades.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[A Load of Squit 5,164]

17 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Every report I've seen focuses on the issues with Liverpool fans- thousands in Paris without tickets, crowded around stadium gates, police pepper spraying them etc. I've no doubt that rhe Authorities took an overly robust response but ask yourself this - where are all the reports / media coverage of similar scenes involving Madrid fans? You have your answer. 

At the FA Cup Funal it was the Royal Family who were to blame, the FA were to blame, various Tory governments were to blame. In Paris it was UEFA who were to blame, French police were to blame, it was the stadiums fault etc. In 2007 in Athens it was the same as back in 1985. Yet still no-one has the courage to challenge the 'entitled' culture that has emanated from Merseyside foe decades.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is very strong evidence, I heard a French journalist on R5 this morning, that the Madrid fans were treated differently to the Liverpool fans.

The media in France are very critical of the police & the organisation.

[1902 1,167]

24 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Every report I've seen focuses on the issues with Liverpool fans- thousands in Paris without tickets, crowded around stadium gates, police pepper spraying them etc. I've no doubt that rhe Authorities took an overly robust response but ask yourself this - where are all the reports / media coverage of similar scenes involving Madrid fans? You have your answer. 

At the FA Cup Funal it was the Royal Family who were to blame, the FA were to blame, various Tory governments were to blame. In Paris it was UEFA who were to blame, French police were to blame, it was the stadiums fault etc. In 2007 in Athens it was the same as back in 1985. Yet still no-one has the courage to challenge the 'entitled' culture that has emanated from Merseyside foe decades.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heysel was the fault of Liverpool fans and decrepit infrastructure. However Hillsborough was just on the authorities.

The problem is that by lying about it, the government/ subsequent governments and the police have now made it so elements of the Liverpool fanbase have a ready made excuse for any form of behaviour. This is why standards in public life matter.

[shefcanary 2,409]

It would be good to hear some acceptance from the campaigning Liverpool fans (there was a particualrly aggressive podcast bloke on BBC 2 news this morning) that there was a genuine issue over fake tickets, calling out their fellow "fans" for expecting to get away with it at the expense of the genuine fans. 

My Twitter feed was full of people "celebrating" their fake tickets.  Fan groups, and the club, should have begged people with such tickets not to travel on the basis that the trouble witnessed would happen.  

Some degree of humility from the leaders of their campaign, with acceptance that some Liverpool "fans" raised issues that other clubs don't seem to attract, would help their case.  Until then, response generally seems to be "well its always Liverpool!  They get what they deserve!"  They have to look hard at themselves.

Edited May 30, 2022 by shefcanary

[The Real Buh 3,432]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

It would be good to hear some acceptance from the campaigning Liverpool fans (there was a particualrly aggressive podcast bloke on BBC 2 news this morning) that there was a genuine issue over fake tickets, calling out their fellow "fans" for expecting to get away with it at the expense of the genuine fans. 

My Twitter feed was full of people "celebrating" their fake tickets.  Fan groups, and the club, should have begged people with such tickets not to travel on the basis that the trouble witnessed would happen.  

Some degree of humility from the leaders of their campaign, with acceptance that some Liverpool "fans" raised issues that other clubs don't seem to attract, would help their case.  Until then, response generally seems to be "well its always Liverpool!  They get what they deserve!"  They have to look hard at themselves.

Liverpool never discourage their fans from travelling without tickets or with fake tickets. They’ve never uttered a word against them.

I genuinely believe Liverpool FC is afraid of its own fans at this point.

Horrendous fanbase, horrendous city, horrendous club. A true blight on the English football landscape.

[Virtual reality 707]

34 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

There is very strong evidence, I heard a French journalist on R5 this morning, that the Madrid fans were treated differently to the Liverpool fans.

The media in France are very critical of the police & the organisation.

In no way am I at all shocked about that. Uefa and the French authorities will do all they can to sweep it under the carpet and deflect blame 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Virtual reality

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

Right, we all know Liverpool fans have a history, it's probably why the French targeted them but it's becoming very clear to see on THIS occasion the blame is 100% with the French. 

An absolute **** show from them, tear gassing kids?? Disgusting. 

As for the fake tickets issue, well apparently tickets issued directly to Robertson from Uefa were deemed fake, it's a nonsense. 

The French...... Brave little boys....... Unless there's a war on 

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

1 hour ago, yellowrider120 said:

Every report I've seen focuses on the issues with Liverpool fans- thousands in Paris without tickets, crowded around stadium gates, police pepper spraying them etc. I've no doubt that rhe Authorities took an overly robust response but ask yourself this - where are all the reports / media coverage of similar scenes involving Madrid fans? You have your answer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A very well respected French journalist has stated the French police deliberately targeted Liverpool fans in a way they didn't Madrid ones. However there was footage on here somewhere of Madrid fans having similar issues and fighting amongst themselves. 

[Lord Horn (again) 131]

18 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

It’s not a typo. My 3 minute video of my swan lake got me two semi final tickets.

I bet the score won't be 2-2 😂

[shefcanary 2,409]

51 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

A very well respected French journalist has stated the French police deliberately targeted Liverpool fans in a way they didn't Madrid ones. However there was footage on here somewhere of Madrid fans having similar issues and fighting amongst themselves. 

I agree that the Liverpool fans were targeted.  The way fans were corralled (kettled if you want) into organised queues was heavy handed, but I can see why it was done, due to the well known use of storming of turnstiles employed by ticketless Liverpool fans in the past.  The lack of effective pre-screening of tickets away from the turnstiles was a failure of all parties, especially the French. You would have expected the Liverpool club could have worked with the local authorities to organise this better. Reputations flew before the "genuine" Liverpool fans unfortunately. 

The lack of a any kind of statements from either the club, FA, City Council or fan groups before the match asking only genuine fans with authorised tickets to travel to the stadium flies in the face of the "100% blame attributable to the French police".  Unfortunately Ken, the majority of people in this country have heard it, seen it and experienced it all before from Liverpool. 

Until there is a change of attitude from the city, club and fans they are unlikely to derive much sympathy from the wider public.  

Edited May 30, 2022 by shefcanary

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

All the authorities have done is allowed any fans that were disruptive or had fake tickets to take the moral high ground.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

2 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

 

Horrendous fanbase, horrendous city, horrendous club. A true blight on the English football landscape.

Agree with all except the bit in bold (never actually been to the city itself so can't comment on that). Last year, their accounts reported a loss of about 4million quid, which is an outstanding fiscal achievement for the level they compete at. The club itself is a beacon for doing top-level football the right way. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[shefcanary 2,409]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Agree with all except the bit in bold (never actually been to the city itself so can't comment on that). Last year, their accounts reported a loss of about 4million quid, which is an outstanding fiscal achievement for the level they compete at. The club itself is a beacon for doing top-level football the right way. 

The city centre & dockside have been re-developed with a lot of sympathy and it is a great place to visit as long as you don't stray too far (shocking that they had their world heritage site taken away for the Everton ground development - not sure what the politics of that was).  I would encourage a visit and as not many Scousers hang out in those areas as it is very much a tourist trap, you have no need of trepidation on your visit. 😉  

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

On 28/05/2022 at 20:13, The Real Buh said:

Establishment journos especially are terrified of blaming Liverpool for anything.

Theyve stormed turnstiles everywhere they go. They turn up with no tickets.

Theyve stormed turnstiles at Carrow road. It’s routine at this point.

I phoned 5 Live yesterday and today to put the point of view that Liverpool fans have a long history when it comes to trying to get in without tickets including Carrow Road. They didn't want to know. I'm sure we're not the only people in the country that dislike them intensely. 

I also sent footage of them throwing bricks, bottles and flares at the Manchester City coach but like you say, the media is terrified of upsetting them. 

 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

11 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I phoned 5 Live yesterday and today to put the point of view that Liverpool fans have a long history when it comes to trying to get in without tickets including Carrow Road. They didn't want to know. I'm sure we're not the only people in the country that dislike them intensely. 

I also sent footage of them throwing bricks, bottles and flares at the Manchester City coach but like you say, the media is terrified of upsetting them. 

 

The media got it so wrong with hillsborough that there’s has been a huge correction to defend them at all costs, which is a green light to their fans.

[Newtopia 517]

3 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Liverpool never discourage their fans from travelling without tickets or with fake tickets. They’ve never uttered a word against them.

I genuinely believe Liverpool FC is afraid of its own fans at this point.

Horrendous fanbase, horrendous city, horrendous club. A true blight on the English football landscape.

You make me laugh, of all the countries cities, I find Liverpool interesting, a great weekend destination, and the people friendly.  Together with United they seems to have a very strong belief that they are entitled to be one of the top teams in the country.  To be fair their management structure has done a great job for a number of years.

[Newtopia 517]

15 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I phoned 5 Live yesterday and today to put the point of view that Liverpool fans have a long history when it comes to trying to get in without tickets including Carrow Road. They didn't want to know. I'm sure we're not the only people in the country that dislike them intensely. 

I also sent footage of them throwing bricks, bottles and flares at the Manchester City coach but like you say, the media is terrified of upsetting them. 

 

The issue is that all clubs have a small minority of idiots.  With Hillsborough, it was entirely the authorities fault.  People without tickets should be stopped before the turnstiles.  We know some fans will try it on, the authorities need to manage it.  I went a few years ago to watch Roma v Lazlo.  They set up an outer perimeter where the tickets were initially visually checked.  Also when you get to the front if you can’t get in because your ticket is not valid or has been damaged you need a route out, so the queues needed to have been better managed / organised at the weekend.

[hertfordyellow 460]

3 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Liverpool never discourage their fans from travelling without tickets or with fake tickets. They’ve never uttered a word against them.

I genuinely believe Liverpool FC is afraid of its own fans at this point.

Horrendous fanbase, horrendous city, horrendous club. A true blight on the English football landscape.

Klopp encouraged it even.

[hertfordyellow 460]

17 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

You make me laugh, of all the countries cities, I find Liverpool interesting, a great weekend destination, and the people friendly.  Together with United they seems to have a very strong belief that they are entitled to be one of the top teams in the country.  To be fair their management structure has done a great job for a number of years.

Laugh all you like, I lived there for four years, ask students in the city how friendly they are. 

[Mr Angry 1,561]

5 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Laugh all you like, I lived there for four years, ask students in the city how friendly they are. 

The residents of a lot of university cities tend to hate the young students that come to study/get blind drunk. My youngest brother went to Leeds and got into a fight most weekends for 3 years (though that probably says more about my brother).

I’ve been out at night in Liverpool many times and have never felt remotely threatened-in contrast to Manchester, which has had an air of brooding violence whenever I have visited.

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

The residents of a lot of university cities tend to hate the young students that come to study/get blind drunk. My youngest brother went to Leeds and got into a fight most weekends for 3 years (though that probably says more about my brother).

I’ve been out at night in Liverpool many times and have never felt remotely threatened-in contrast to Manchester, which has had an air of brooding violence whenever I have visited.

Well as someone who has been spat at in my face, mugged, chased and shoved down some stairs I would disagree. I was denied application for a pub job because they 'only hire scousers'. I regularly got served last because I wasn't a local. We gave up going out on Saturday because it wasn't worth the feel of brooding violence we encountered. I have to say i've seen some truly awful things occur on nights out. 

[Renskay 36]

Why are people in this thread so eager to blame Liverpool fans?

https://twitter.com/moscardol/status/1530694216845778950?s=21

[Renskay 36]

Further breakdown of what happened here from a Spanish newspaper. 

https://www.20minutos.es/deportes/noticia/5007262/0/cronica-atracos-pesadilla-aficionados-real-madrid-liverpool-final-champions-league/

 

[Jim Smith 2,319]

The problem with all the debates over matters such as this is that there never seems to be roomfor any nuanced debate. It either has to be the fans fault, or it has to be the authorities fault. 

Truth is its nearly always the result of a combination of factors, as was the case with Hillsborough (the ultimate perfect storm of decaying infrastructure, incompetence, panic and years of hostility between authorities and fans) and also Heysel (primary cause rioting fans but also a stadium not fit for purpose). in each case there will be primary causes but there will also be contributory factors. 

Here, a/the primary cause seems to have been poor organisation and the French police responding in an entirely predicatible way that will come as no surprise to those who have encountered them but clearly the influence of local youths was a contributory factor as was the tendancy of liverpool fans to travel in large numbers without tickets and for some within their number to try to blag their way into grounds. They did it in Athens for one of the previous finals. They still do this and indeed whilst I have no idea if its still the case, a couple of years ago someone I know who worked at Carrow Road said that there are 2 games a year where they put extra staff on the turnstiles to stop fans jumping over them (due to past experience) and those games are Liverpool and Everton. Its not black and white and shouldn't be completely ignored as a factor, even if the authorities responded to it in a way that was well below the standard one might expect. 

[Renskay 36]

Essentially the Stade de France is located in one of the most dangerous neighbourhoods of Paris, 'Saint-Denis', so it was little wonder that there would be problems for the organisation as well as for fan safety. 

[Jim Smith 2,319]

On 29/05/2022 at 10:59, Mason 47 said:

Probably some truth to both sides, but if there's one group of people that you would class as odds-on to causes trouble on a foreign excursion it's English football fans. Then if you were to say which of those likely lads was the most likely- it's definitely Liverpool fans.

 

 

I don't agree in terms of general "trouble." I think Liverpool fans probably cause less trouble than say West Ham or Chelsea or Man U in terms of it "kicking off" in city centres. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

7 minutes ago, Renskay said:

Why are people in this thread so eager to blame Liverpool fans?

https://twitter.com/moscardol/status/1530694216845778950?s=21

"It is a neighbouhood where they live mostly people of African origin". Why does this matter to him I wonder?

While this account points to poor organisation and a lack of police it is a very different problem to the one happening at the Liverpool end. Also, a lack of police might be because 80k more Liverpool fans turned up in the city, took over whole squares and drank heavily all day, needing a huge police presence? Liverpool did nothing to dissuade fans from turning up without a ticket and it will always cause issues, especially with a police force already uneasy with British fans.

[Renskay 36]

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

"It is a neighbouhood where they live mostly people of African origin". Why does this matter to him I wonder?

While this account points to poor organisation and a lack of police it is a very different problem to the one happening at the Liverpool end. Also, a lack of police might be because 80k more Liverpool fans turned up in the city, took over whole squares and drank heavily all day, needing a huge police presence? Liverpool did nothing to dissuade fans from turning up without a ticket and it will always cause issues, especially with a police force already uneasy with British fans.

Because Saint Denis is a neighbourhood where people of mainly African origin live.

It's also a neighbourhood where almost every tourist site will tell you never to visit because it's too dangerous