Is it Farke or is it Webber?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

I'm completely torn on this issue, its just so difficult without knowing the exact dynamic when it comes to transfers, players have been sold without Farke's nod of approval,  he was never happy with the Pritchard sale (although that looks like excellent business as Pritchard has been rubbish since leaving) and said he cried when Lewis was sold, but what extent are new players thrust on him? 

Equally culpable?

I just feel like we need to know who decided going into a season with our largest ever transfer budget, having struggled offensively last time in this league, that Josh Sargent was the player we needed up front. Young, inexperienced, raw, poor career stats, recently relegated. He was never going to make an impact in this league was he?

Is this the squad that Webber has served up to Farke, and has Farke just been told to make it all work? Or has Farke agreed with Webber that Sargent is exactly what we needed this year? I feel like we need this clarification, the way the club functions in this respect is obscured from fans, possibly intentionally. 

The decision to spend £5m rising to £10m on a second choice goalkeeper, rather than add this to the budget for an attacking player, would that have been Webber, Farke, or a joint decision? 

The decision to not match £14m for Ajer but to stick firm at £10m, only to spend £5m on a backup keeper, would Farke have backed that decision, or is that Webber being stubborn on a point of principle? 

If we sack Farke now, is he just a fall guy for the terrible transfer dealings of the sporting director? Would the same person be deciding who the next head coach manages? Did Farke declare himself happy with this window at any point?

I can't help but feel that we need to ascertain who is really culpable for this complete sh*tshow of a season, and it feels to me like that it might be joint enterprise, and their decision to back each other publicly might suggest the situation being somewhat complicated by a refusal of Webber to throw Farke under the bus meaning that its either both of them leave or neither of them leave? 

But then, if Webber is planning on leaving at the end of the season anyway (save for not wanting to leave us in the lurch), should it even be Webber appointing Farke's replacement, and perhaps it would make more sense to cut ties now and for the next head coach to be appointed by Webber's successor? A caretaker manager until Webber's appointment is sorted?

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by TeemuVanBasten

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,042]

Both of them. Look at Huddersfield for a failed Webber model that is being repeated at Norwich, all right for him he can **** off and leave us fans with the results of another failure. Daniel Farke is a very good Championship level manger but cannot cut it at Premier League level............

[For the future 70]

Both need to go now before it’s to late 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,155]

Webber has to take some blame. He would have been complicit in the outrageously stupid decision not to sign a ball winning defensive midfielder or two. We also never try to sign pacy strikers which we desperately need, our best CB is a 19 year old from the academy who only got his chance because of an injury crisis, his two left back signings can't get in the team, he doesn't understand what profile you need to be a central midfielder in the PL. Gilmour? What the hell was he thinking. Rashica just looks like an expensive Placheta another pacy player who doesn't have enough technique to use his pace etc. The caveat is that these are the type of players Farke would have asked for, but still bad decisions. 

We could have had Cornet and Ajer instead of Kabak and Sargent if we also didn't waste money on Lees Melou and the loan fee for Gilmour and Williams. We should have gone for 4 or 5 quality players instead of like 9 average ones. 

[Ken Hairy 3,782]

Its a combination of both, and Delia she really does actively have to TRY and find us owners more equipped for the modern game. 

[Channon’s Windmill 336]

Both, too comfortable. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,080]

We know Farke is a good coach and makes players better. We also know that when he has a decent squad for the level he is competing at he is successful...he's done it everywhere he's been. This disaster is squarely at Webber's door and we should fire him instantly. Has Farke made his previous signings look good at the level below but it's too big an ask at PL level even for a talented coach like DF? Buendia aside, all the other players that have gone for big money were McNally signings or the youth team - Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy, Pritchard, Maddison, Godfrey, Lewis.

Webber is looking more and more like a fraud with every day that passes.

[Clever Farke 65]

It’s neither nor. They do well at Chamionship level. But the self funding thing would appear to be unworkable at Premier level. Either the owners change or we press repeat. Again and again. 

[Tommo 51]

I do recall Webber’s interview saying something along the lines of if it’s a narrow loss where we have hit the bar like 5 times it would be seen as a step in right direction and would demonstrate the players,staff etc couldn’t do any more. 
 

well after today , especially last 30 minutes the Leeds keeper might as well have put his feet up. He and the leeds defence where there for the taking and we were totally bereft of ideas and confidence. Pukki is just not the quality required anymore and the other 2 options are not good enough. 
 

something has to change - even if it means relegation then at least everyone including the fans would accept that we tried a change in management and it either works or it doesn’t. We just cannot carry on with Farke. I am intrigued to see what he means about training and his role to find more end product quality from his players. He has had long enough to do this and set the tactics to succeed , we are instead looking increasingly clueless 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, Clever Farke said:

But the self funding thing would appear to be unworkable at Premier level. 

You say that, but Brentford haven't spent much. 

Their wage bill is lower, and they've spent much less. 

They are simply better than us in the transfer market. Their scouting and recruitment is far superior. And that's why I question whether the buck really stops with Farke. 

[Capt. Pants 4,300]

Webber has presented Farke with a quality squad to work with and develop but he's (Farke) failing miserably. The exception may be Sargent who looks frankly abysmal.

The squad might not be good enough to be top half Premier League this season, but we are significantly under achieving. Strange selections, constant chopping and changing early on, hoofball lump it up tactics (utterly bizarre) and rumours of squad unrest with Cantwell and refusal to integrate Gilmour.

Blame fairly and squarely at Farke's door imo.

[mastoola 185]

14 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

We know Farke is a good coach and makes players better. We also know that when he has a decent squad for the level he is competing at he is successful...he's done it everywhere he's been. This disaster is squarely at Webber's door and we should fire him instantly. Has Farke made his previous signings look good at the level below but it's too big an ask at PL level even for a talented coach like DF? Buendia aside, all the other players that have gone for big money were McNally signings or the youth team - Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy, Pritchard, Maddison, Godfrey, Lewis.

Webber is looking more and more like a fraud with every day that passes.

Could you let me know which other clubs he has done it at?

[Tommo 51]

Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

You say that, but Brentford haven't spent much. 

Their wage bill is lower, and they've spent much less. 

They are simply better than us in the transfer market. Their scouting and recruitment is far superior. And that's why I question whether the buck really stops with Farke. 

I do agree with this to an extent - Webber has flopped big time with the signings but still think it’s gone too far with Farke and we need a nee voice in the hot seat. The players, despite their best endeavours have tried numerous formations, tactics of Farke but it’s all heading in the wrong direction. 
 

Rashica has glimpses but given he was involved in relegation recently then he is hardly bringing winning mentality any time soon.

williams and Gilmour to be recalled in January

Sargeant - will be lucky to get 5 goals never mind the 15-20 we need

Tzolis- needs more opportunities but we can’t be putting too much expectation on him

Normann and Kabak - seem to be best business we have done but came in too late in transfer window 

PLM - despite encouraging pre season, the prem is too much class for him and he is increasingly ineffective at this level 

Gunn - clearly understudy to Tim until his contract expires 

 

so all in all, 1 possibly 2 signings are demonstrating that they have added to our squad, the rest have been poor especially for the £50m total outlay . And worst of all, these 1/2 best signings are only on loan so ain’t likely to be around behind this season ! 

 

[king canary 7,681]

Webber was put in a tough position- essentially have a small budget or sell one of your 'crown jewels' to raise more cash. 

I think his main error was trying to sign too many players this window- did we really need Tzolis, Rashica and Sargent? Or Gilmour, PLM and Normann? Was a reported £5m on a back up goalkeeper really a sensible use of limited funds? Probably not.

However, I still believe the players are better than what we're seeing right now. I just don't buy that everybody from our Championship topping team is suddenly incompetent at Premier League level, nor do I believe our best attacking midfielder should be playing for the u23's due to some argument with the manager.

I think these players have shown enough pedigree elsewhere that we need to see what they can do under a new manager. We could sack Webber right now but it changes nothing in the short term. Sacking a manager who has consistently shown an inability to set a team up for success at this level is the thing most likely to change things now.

[Kingston Yellow 224]

56 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Is this the squad that Webber has served up to Farke, and has Farke just been told to make it all work? Or has Farke agreed with Webber that Sargent is exactly what we needed this year? I feel like we need this clarification, the way the club functions in this respect is obscured from fans, possibly intentionally. 

The decision to not match £14m for Ajer but to stick firm at £10m, only to spend £5m on a backup keeper, would Farke have backed that decision, or is that Webber being stubborn on a point of principle? 

I can't help but feel that we need to ascertain who is really culpable for this complete sh*tshow of a season.

 

Some good point well made. 

Totally agree.

[Mello Yello 2,306]

Will be interesting to see where Stu goes to when he departs Carrow Road?......Either way, I certainly won't shed a beer.....

Anyway....In my opinion,  Webbo is as culpable as Daniel for the sad situation we currently find ourselves in.....We haven't learnt from our previous foray into the big boys league and seem to be bereft of ideas. We just seem to lack the spirit, guile, confidence and the required energy to grind out the points to survive.....Colney and it's upgrade is all well and good, but it feels like 'all the gear no idea' syndrome.....Only time will tell, but at this moment in time we just seem to be the whipping boys who aren't even 'plucky'.....

It's not just the target fixation on Daniel as the root and only cause for our failures.....There are others and a collective that need to take responsibility - and that includes the DoF Stu, our Board and the under-performing playing squad....."Where are you?"

 

 

[kenfoggo 247]

Farke or Webber? I think the two are bound together, their fates are linked. Webber is inextricably linked with Farke. He should not be. He should already have someone lined up in case this situation eventuated, because that is his job. I suspect he hasn’t got a short list of potential Premiership Head Coaches waiting in the wings ready willing and able to do at least as bad a job as Farke. Webber should have a shortlist, it IS his job. If Webber cannot do his job then the Owners and Directors should already have his replacement lined up, it is their responsibility, to the Club and the Supporters. Once again, as in previous regimes the top management at Carrow Road appear to be asleep at the wheel or are just plain willing to accept that relegation and poor performances are inevitable. It makes me angry that such a loyal fan base can be so taken for granted. Another home capacity crowd treated to dross followed by implausible excuses. It is shameful.

[Indy 3,323]

To be honest, we have invested, we bought some decent young players with bags of potential and loaned a couple really decent players.

Teams like Leeds are streets ahead, money brings better squads and we need to develop our squad with time. We’re trying to do this but obviously our squad isn’t anywhere near good enough at this level.

Bournemouth, Fulham, WBA are a few teams who’s fans will no doubt have this debate next season.

My biggest gripe is that Farke and Webber had a plan, bought in players to play in a normal 4-2-3-1, we got rid of the deadwood, Hugill out and after a couple results not going our way, we’ve changed system to not requiring wingers, we spent the majority of money on two decent wingers. Cantwell needs to be managed and back in ASAP. So both culpable for not buying players for the system Farke wants to play.

Both have been outstanding and Farke has signed a long term contract, is there anyone who would come here to change our situation, reality probably no better than we have, we’re never going to get a Ranieri.

Webber should go, if he’s really going in the summer then I want him gone before the January transfer window.

So yep difficult, we’re just not rich enough or attractive enough to get bigger names here, we can’t throw any money at it as we don’t have that type of owner, last this club has always been far too comfortably and nice to staff, we don’t apply any real pressure to perform, Worthy, Hughton and Farke all bare this and Webber basically has a free reign to do as he pleases within budget constraints, including being a **** towards fans. Disconnect from them by stupid remarks and you won’t be here too much longer. So get rid now and bring in the new director be it Adams if that’s what’s in place.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Indy

[Jim Smith 2,349]

Both. The fundamental problem has been the lack of a defensive midfielder but it has resulted in Farke (whose never been able to coach defending) completely losing the plot. 

[Helsinki canary 244]

They are a double act, both are equally to blame and hence their defence of each other’s achievements. Webber knows his time is up and he will walk in the summer along with his missus and Farke will resign before the season ends, maybe by Christmas already. Currently the club doesn’t really have a CEO or strong Chairman so the club is headed for some stormy waters as the project implodes  as we go down again. The board needs to act now to build the next generation as the current one is coming to its end.

[essex canary 508]

57 minutes ago, Indy said:

To be honest, we have invested, we bought some decent young players with bags of potential and loaned a couple really decent players.

Teams like Leeds are streets ahead, money brings better squads and we need to develop our squad with time. We’re trying to do this but obviously our squad isn’t anywhere near good enough at this level.

Bournemouth, Fulham, WBA are a few teams who’s fans will no doubt have this debate next season.

My biggest gripe is that Farke and Webber had a plan, bought in players to play in a normal 4-2-3-1, we got rid of the deadwood, Hugill out and after a couple results not going our way, we’ve changed system to not requiring wingers, we spent the majority of money on two decent wingers. Cantwell needs to be managed and back in ASAP. So both culpable for not buying players for the system Farke wants to play.

Both have been outstanding and Farke has signed a long term contract, is there anyone who would come here to change our situation, reality probably no better than we have, we’re never going to get a Ranieri.

Webber should go, if he’s really going in the summer then I want him gone before the January transfer window.

So yep difficult, we’re just not rich enough or attractive enough to get bigger names here, we can’t throw any money at it as we don’t have that type of owner, last this club has always been far too comfortably and nice to staff, we don’t apply any real pressure to perform, Worthy, Hughton and Farke all bare this and Webber basically has a free reign to do as he pleases within budget constraints, including being a **** towards fans. Disconnect from them by stupid remarks and you won’t be here too much longer. So get rid now and bring in the new director be it Adams if that’s what’s in place.

Great Post.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

2 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Great Post.

Yep I second this and I'll try to add my own take though I concur with quite a bit of what Indy said.

Personally I place little blame at Farke's feet. After 10 games I simply don't see the individual quality in the players that we've brought in that is required to stay in this league. Player for player, we still have the worst squad in the division. 

Sargent, Rashica and PLM have been disappointing as has Williams. Tzolis clearly is one for the future as is Angus. Gilmour looks difficult to accommodate in a squad already small in stature. Dimi and Gibson have both looked suspect defensively. 

Ozan has been just about adequate I'd say, and Normann the only real success. Both of those being loan players of course.

As for Webber, clearly there is a degree of blame because the recruitment looks disastrous. Albeit I agree with Webber that it is still relatively early in the season, but clearly 2pts from 10 games and none of those players looking up to it is getting on toward a decent sample size.

However, ultimately Webber is operating within a tight PL budget especially on wages. £40k is about our limit so even if you argue we should have signed 4 or 5 quality additions instead of 9 or 10, there is a limit in terms of the quality of the player you can attract on our wage budget and as a favourite for relegation.

I just think we are seeing the limits of self-funding. Which is basically that the likes of Webber have to get every recruitment decision perfect, or just be lucky enough that young, relatively cheap signings storm the Premier League. In the £8m-ish price range bracket, you can't sign established PL quality. We have had to risk our budget on potential because we can't do more. What I'm saying here is that it isn't impossible to stay in the PL as a self-funded club, but it's incredibly difficult and you need to be pretty lucky as well as adept in your transfers.

So in conclusion, unless you want to take your pitchforks to the Stowmarket Two's house, which I personally don't, then this is probably the way it's going to be for us. If it's any consolation, there are other clubs in the same boat, some who spend much more than us. WBA, Fulham, Watford and us are all doing the yo-yo dance. And even if Brentford survive this year, you can bet they will be back in the relegation scrap again the following year, and the one after that. Welcome to the modern PL era!