England v Scotland

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Not tonight, they weren't. Scotland were the better side. Then chuck in the WC semi defeat to Croatia, both defeats to Belgium in the same tournament...

When it really matters, against true quality, England have consistently demonstrated in recent history that they fall slightly short.

I agree with all of that 100%.

But you had been suggesting that it’s the English nation overrating their players that’s the problem, not the English team playing far below the sum of its parts (which is what I think the issue is). The fact we couldn’t overcome Scotland tonight, even though our side is objectively head and shoulders better than theirs (on paper), shows this is true.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

And Sancho's goals and assist numbers have eclipsed all those bad Haaland, and Alcacer's output at Dortmund was much better than he has produced anywhere else. Maybe it's Sancho making his teammates look good, rather than vice versa?

Quite possibly, although you'd need a miracle to make Harry Kane look good this evening.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

And Sancho's goals and assist numbers have eclipsed all those bar Haaland, and Alcacer's output at Dortmund was much better than he has ever produced anywhere else, before or since. Maybe it's Sancho making his teammates look good, rather than vice versa?

I think he must’ve ran out of straws by now….

[mastoola 185]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Quite possibly, although you'd need a miracle to make Harry Kane look good this evening.

Because the way the manger set the team up?

 

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I agree with all of that 100%.

But you had been suggesting that it’s the English nation overrating their players that’s the problem, not the English team playing far below the sum of its parts (which is what I think the issue is). The fact we couldn’t overcome Scotland tonight, even though our side is objectively head and shoulders better than theirs (on paper), shows this is true.

Against Scotland, the notion of playing below the sum of its parts is in all likelihood true (with the complicating psychological factor that it's Scotland's big one as far as derbies go). Against the likes of those 2018 Croatia or Belgium teams, no.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

2 minutes ago, mastoola said:

Because the way the manger set the team up?

 

No. He looks leggy to me and needs a break.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Quite possibly, although you'd need a miracle to make Harry Kane look good this evening.

Indeed, I haven't seen Kane play this badly since his Norwich days.

It's interesting that we've brought up Sancho however, as I feel he's the one that his been most underused so far. It's a real shame that he hasn't even played a minute yet when none of the other attacking midfielders or wingers have pulled up any trees.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

3 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Indeed, I haven't seen Kane play this badly since his Norwich days.

It's interesting that we've brought up Sancho however, as I feel he's the one that his been most underused so far. It's a real shame that he hasn't even played a minute yet when none of the other attacking midfielders or wingers have pulled up any trees.

Agreed, and the interesting thing was that the prevailing clamour appeared mainly for Grealish to come on, not him. They got their wish, and Grealish didn't really do much either.

[hogesar 9,704]

21 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Fair point there, but before Haaland, he still had Marco Reus and Paco Alcacer (12 goals in 19 caps for Spain) to aim at. I'll accept that he's done very well, but he's always had someone in excellent form up top for Dortmund to aim at, or feed off too. 

Doesnt reduce his own quality whatsoever. You don't have a point on this one other than top quality European player plays with other top quality European player.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Agreed, and the interesting thing was that the prevailing clamour appeared mainly for Grealish to come on, not him. They got their wish, and Grealish didn't really do much either.

I think Grealish and Sancho would compliment each other really well on opposing flanks. 

Assuming that Mount's place is assured, we have Grealish, Foden, Sterling, Sancho and Rashford competing for two places.

Grealish and Foden are similarish players in the sense that they're creative number tens who can dribble and play a pass, whereas the other three are more offensive wide forwards. 

As a result, I'd play one of Grealish and Foden and then one of Sterling, Sancho and Rashford. 

Given that Grealish is more effective on the left, I'd say that if you're picking him, the best option is Sancho on the other side as he's more comfortable on the right. Foden can play both sides but he's probably better from the right, so it would make sense to play him with Rashford who only works on the left or Sterling who is probably better there too.

I think the Sterling/Foden and Grealish/Sancho combos are the best two, as they both give a wider variety of attributes and have the players working on their most comfortable flank.

[mastoola 185]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Doesnt reduce his own quality whatsoever. You don't have a point on this one other than top quality European player plays with other top quality European player.

Other than the fact that the English squad were called make weight players.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Writing was on the wall for this tournament when Southgate gave the interview beforehand that it was preferable to have a tight defence as you don’t win tournaments by conceding goals. While he’s right, the defensive portion of our game has been over drilled and by playing both Rice and Phillips you’re lacking a playmaker in the centre of the pitch, there’s no Rupp or Kenny style player to drive the ball forwards and play the pass to open things up. Foden is the only player to come out of last night with any credit, he was the one picking up the ball and running with it, looking to create. Sterling just runs straight into trouble, he can’t beat a man, his pace only lets him run off the ball. When Foden was subbed I almost threw my tablet across the room.

[canarycop 206]

25 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Writing was on the wall for this tournament when Southgate gave the interview beforehand that it was preferable to have a tight defence as you don’t win tournaments by conceding goals. While he’s right, the defensive portion of our game has been over drilled and by playing both Rice and Phillips you’re lacking a playmaker in the centre of the pitch, there’s no Rupp or Kenny style player to drive the ball forwards and play the pass to open things up. Foden is the only player to come out of last night with any credit, he was the one picking up the ball and running with it, looking to create. Sterling just runs straight into trouble, he can’t beat a man, his pace only lets him run off the ball. When Foden was subbed I almost threw my tablet across the room.

Cant agree more, Astounded to see Foden taken off. By far and away out best player. I was screaming for Phillip's, Kane and Sterling to be replaced by Sancho, Grealish and Rashford. Rice holding with Mount and Foden in front with Sancho and Grealish wide. Pace and endeavour. Instead we stick with out of sorts Kane and Sterling who I cant believe didn't get subbed

[NFN FC 1,123]

1 hour ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Writing was on the wall for this tournament when Southgate gave the interview beforehand that it was preferable to have a tight defence as you don’t win tournaments by conceding goals. While he’s right, the defensive portion of our game has been over drilled and by playing both Rice and Phillips you’re lacking a playmaker in the centre of the pitch, there’s no Rupp or Kenny style player to drive the ball forwards and play the pass to open things up. Foden is the only player to come out of last night with any credit, he was the one picking up the ball and running with it, looking to create. Sterling just runs straight into trouble, he can’t beat a man, his pace only lets him run off the ball. When Foden was subbed I almost threw my tablet across the room.

I thought Phillips did that 'Kenny' job very well in the first match against Croatia but was non-existant against Scotland. 

The way the England players went about the game was completely wrong. It reminded me of when we played Iceland and were knocked out, they had no respect for the other team. They were slow moving the ball up the pitch and when they got to the final third they were trying to get round players. To me it looked as if they thought they could get round every defender with ease (which they couldn't). They thought that the game was won before they walked out the tunnel. Deluded bunch of arrogant idiots! 

Drop Kane, drop Sterling. 

[Ken Hairy 3,774]

9 hours ago, mastoola said:

England play the same formation as Norwich.

There's a lot more to tactical play than simply what formation is used. Two teams can use the same formation but utilise it in completely differing ways, ala England and Norwich. 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,435]

The Sterling love in gets me . 
Playing in the Man City team surrounded by world class players got him so far , but even then Citeh’s progress in the Champions league was when he didn’t play. Soon as he gets back in the Final , City lose 

Last night he ran up blind alleys , lost the ball and created nothing . 
 

The team seem to have untouchables - Sterling being one and Rashford another . Game was screaming out for Lewin but instead a passive (injured?) Kane gets subbed for Rashford who ended up coming back to the half way line . 
 

The real nonsense of the whole piece is that England have a better team than Scotland .They don’t . Scotland have almost as many Prem players as us . Scotlands two full backs are better than our Full backs at Club level. 
 

[duke63 543]

England are playing football that is 10 years out of date.

Its safe, predictable and boring to watch.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

54 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

The real nonsense of the whole piece is that England have a better team than Scotland .They don’t . Scotland have almost as many Prem players as us . Scotlands two full backs are better than our Full backs at Club level. 
 

Absolutely not. Even ignoring the fact your statement is untrue- they don’t have anywhere near as many prem level players as us- it doesn’t make them the same in quality. The gulf in quality between the top and bottom of the prem is totally stark.

Robertson and debatably McTominay are the only players who get in our squad. I like McGinn too but he’d probably miss out just like players such as Ward-Prowse and Lingaard have for us. Adams and O’Donnell also played really well last night but Adams would not be ahead of Kane, DCL, Watkins, Bamford, Ings for England. And O’Donnell over James, TAA, Walker, Trippier, Wan-Bassaka? How many beverages did you have last night?

Just so far from the truth, on the night Scotland matched us, no doubt, but to say that’s because the squads are the same level of quality - not because one team played as a team and one team did not - is totally ludicrous and objectively nonsense…

Edited June 19, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Forgot to mention Tierney, good player who would be close to the squad but I wouldn’t have him in our side over Shaw or Chillwell.

[daly 506]

18 hours ago, ncfcstar said:

Comfortable England win, we are far superior to Scotland and I just can't see them touching us with a 'home' crowd at Wembley.

3-0.

Egg

Face

[hogesar 9,704]

1 hour ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

 

The real nonsense of the whole piece is that England have a better team than Scotland .They don’t . Scotland have almost as many Prem players as us . Scotlands two full backs are better than our Full backs at Club level. 
 

This is demonstrably false on pretty much every measurable level you can find, apart from maybe one fullback, which even then is debatable.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

9 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I think Grealish and Sancho would compliment each other really well on opposing flanks. 

Assuming that Mount's place is assured, we have Grealish, Foden, Sterling, Sancho and Rashford competing for two places.

Grealish and Foden are similarish players in the sense that they're creative number tens who can dribble and play a pass, whereas the other three are more offensive wide forwards. 

As a result, I'd play one of Grealish and Foden and then one of Sterling, Sancho and Rashford. 

Given that Grealish is more effective on the left, I'd say that if you're picking him, the best option is Sancho on the other side as he's more comfortable on the right. Foden can play both sides but he's probably better from the right, so it would make sense to play him with Rashford who only works on the left or Sterling who is probably better there too.

I think the Sterling/Foden and Grealish/Sancho combos are the best two, as they both give a wider variety of attributes and have the players working on their most comfortable flank.

There's some mileage in that. I think the main problem in England's performance was Kane's lethargy. Without the front man firing on all cylinders, it's harder for the men behind to get into position to feed him. Sterling ran into a lot of cul-de-sacs and also as the ball wasn't sticking up top, it hampered the full-backs as they didn't have too many forward options with the ball, or indeed felt empowered to push forward. Granted, James was never as likely to get up all the time when confronted with Scotland's only world-class player in Robertson (Tierney's probably getting close, and Gilmour has the potential to) but if the ball isn't staying up top well, your wide men have a conundrum - do they push and risk being countered, or do they hold their shape?

If I were picking a team out of that squad, I think I'd do this in what would basically be a 4-1-4-1/4-3-2-1 hybrid:

GK: Jordan PICKFORD
LB: Ben CHILWELL
LCB: Tyrone MINGS
RCB: John STONES
RB: Kieran TRIPPIER
DCM: Declan RICE
LM: Jack GREALISH
RM: Jadon SANCHO
AM: Mason MOUNT
AM: Phil FODEN
CF: Dominic CALVERT-LEWIN

[lake district canary 4,539]

41 minutes ago, hogesar said:

2 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

 

The real nonsense of the whole piece is that England have a better team than Scotland .They don’t . Scotland have almost as many Prem players as us . Scotlands two full backs are better than our Full backs at Club level. 
 

This is demonstrably false on pretty much every measurable level you can find, apart from maybe one fullback, which even then is debatable.

This is not demonstrably false. As a "team" Scotland are every bit as good as England.  They play as a team, they play for each other, there is no selfishness, there is no ego - it is a collective performance.  What England do is under achieve as a "team".  They don't look as if they are playing for each other, they don't have a collective togetherness that a good team has. In short they look poor - as a team.  They might even go on and win the tournament, I doubt it, but they might, but the process of getting there is always so lacking in any kind of spirit and "wow, look how good we can be" feeling.

You can blame the manager, or the FA or the players - or all of them but collectively England are a pretty poor team - in other words they are significantly less than the sum of their parts. Scotland, for the first time I have seen in years look to have got their teamwork and spirit right up with the best - and playing collectively as good as they can be. That is the mark of a good team.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by lake district canary

[It's Character Forming 1,164]

A poor and lethargic performance by England and a good performance by Scotland. A draw a fair result both sides could have scored and were let down by their finishing. Unfair to criticise Stones for not scoring his header, if you hit the inside of the post, on another day that goes in, football is all about those sort of fine margins.

 

I am cringing slightly about the interviews shown this morning with some Scotland fans saying they’re delighted with the result, it was a nil nil draw.

[Fuzzar 1,702]

20 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

There's some mileage in that. I think the main problem in England's performance was Kane's lethargy. Without the front man firing on all cylinders, it's harder for the men behind to get into position to feed him. Sterling ran into a lot of cul-de-sacs and also as the ball wasn't sticking up top, it hampered the full-backs as they didn't have too many forward options with the ball, or indeed felt empowered to push forward. Granted, James was never as likely to get up all the time when confronted with Scotland's only world-class player in Robertson (Tierney's probably getting close, and Gilmour has the potential to) but if the ball isn't staying up top well, your wide men have a conundrum - do they push and risk being countered, or do they hold their shape?

If I were picking a team out of that squad, I think I'd do this in what would basically be a 4-1-4-1/4-3-2-1 hybrid:

GK: Jordan PICKFORD
LB: Ben CHILWELL
LCB: Tyrone MINGS
RCB: John STONES
RB: Kieran TRIPPIER
DCM: Declan RICE
LM: Jack GREALISH
RM: Jadon SANCHO
AM: Mason MOUNT
AM: Phil FODEN
CF: Dominic CALVERT-LEWIN

I might actually get excited about watching this England team.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,435]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

This is demonstrably false on pretty much every measurable level you can find, apart from maybe one fullback, which even then is debatable.

Edit : deleted because it is a pointless argument that I’ll withdraw from. England were cr4p with too many players who are used to being surrounded by world class teammates  - and we all think they are great . Sterling is a prime example . As is Rashford . 
 

The Under 23’s are another classic example . A player sitting on the edge of the Chelsea team is hailed as world class - and completely outplayed by a hard working Switzerland team . 
 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Graham Paddons Beard

[lake district canary 4,539]

16 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

A poor and lethargic performance by England and a good performance by Scotland. A draw a fair result both sides could have scored and were let down by their finishing. Unfair to criticise Stones for not scoring his header, if you hit the inside of the post, on another day that goes in, football is all about those sort of fine margins.

I am cringing slightly about the interviews shown this morning with some Scotland fans saying they’re delighted with the result, it was a nil nil draw.

You can't blame them for being pleased about getting a point that keeps them in the competition.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

12 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Show me ? Demonstrably? 
No subjectivity . Show me . Demonstrably . 

Are you serious?

Literally just compare player by player the two squads. The England side is full of champions league winners and finalists, premier league winners, players who regularly play champions league and European football.

Apart from Robertson and McTominay I don’t think there’s any Scotland player that plays to that level domestically?

The England side on paper is head and shoulders better than Scotland, this isn’t even a debate. One bad England performance and one very good Scotland one doesn’t change that.

Did you also think NCFC were player for player as good as Man City after we beat them 3-2?? 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

@Graham Paddons Beard please list the Scotland players who walk into our squad of 26. Go. 

[Jim Smith 2,325]

Disappointing display although not the end of the World and I’m struggling a bit this morning with how it seems to have been reinvented as some kind of Scottish masterclass where they were the better side and deserved to win. They didn’t. They played pretty well and deserved a draw but they never looked like winning and it was a fair result.

I remain unconvinced by Southgate as a tactician/in game manager. We need a passer/more creative player in the middle. Taking Foden off was just wrong and it was a strangely conservative display all round.