Kenny McLean = the new Russel Martin

[Number9 272]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Kenny McLean will be one of the main midfielders in the Champs next season. I'm quite sure he will be a positive as he was in his comparatively brief time last season. It's been very difficult for virtually every single member of the team to shine this year in the PL. That includes, Max, Jamal, Emi, Teemu, Ben  etc....quite why some pick just on him is weird. Arguably only Todd Cantwell has truly over performed from his base level of performance since last year.

I don't think his game has changed this season compared to last season. Thst consistency may be one of the reasons Farke plays him so much. 

I would like to see him have an extended run as number 10 because that's where he's spent most his career and is supposed to be his best position. 

Not sure why Farke persists with him as a defensive midfielder because it isn't working. 

[sonyc 5,542]

Just now, Number9 said:

I don't think his game has changed this season compared to last season. Thst consistency may be one of the reasons Farke plays him so much. 

I would like to see him have an extended run as number 10 because that's where he's spent most his career and is supposed to be his best position. 

Not sure why Farke persists with him as a defensive midfielder because it isn't working. 

Yeah, I would go along with that. He is far better imo as an AM. Yet, without much defensive midfielder resources available at times this season, then KM has been deployed. He arguably has met his match. 

He cost peanuts compared to who he was playing against for most of the time this season.

[nutty nigel 7,695]

3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Strikes me that kenny has become the new Russ. Loved by the management and owners, bigged up as a character, and - the annoying bit-  never dropped even when performances are poor and he adds little to the team. 

What makes you suggest the owners have anything to do with your moans about McLean.

Is this pre protest propaganda?

 

[Duncan Edwards 2,274]

12 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

What makes you suggest the owners have anything to do with your moans about McLean.

Is this pre protest propaganda?

 

Mario Vrancic criticised Delia’s Shepherds Pie recipe and now barely gets a look in. Coincidence? 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,050]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

When analysing a game, the Coaches will not be watching match coverage , they will be watching a birds eye view mostly ,so as to gauge all players positioning and movement at once. I was once lucky enough to be at a lecture by FAI technical Director Ruud Doktor, what he was able to demonstrate was a revelation . He also made it very clear that a fans eye view is by definition , limited. This is not an insult to fans...he made that very apparent. As  Brian Kerr once said after his tenure as manager of RoI.....' during a game there are 30,000 fans that that know so much more about football than me, but ask me about music and I can spoof with the best of them.'.

There is a bloke that sits not far from us at Carrow Rd whose we call "Jose Mourinho", constant coaching from his seat all game, beggars belief that he wastes his time at Carrow Rd when he could be earning megabucks as head coach of a top tier side..........

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

When analysing a game, the Coaches will not be watching match coverage , they will be watching a birds eye view mostly ,so as to gauge all players positioning and movement at once. I was once lucky enough to be at a lecture by FAI technical Director Ruud Doktor, what he was able to demonstrate was a revelation . He also made it very clear that a fans eye view is by definition , limited. This is not an insult to fans...he made that very apparent. As  Brian Kerr once said after his tenure as manager of RoI.....' during a game there are 30,000 fans that that know so much more about football than me, but ask me about music and I can spoof with the best of them.'.

Im sure you are correct in your summary Corky but I was interested in you saying that coaches have a better view of the games than fans. 

Most fans are sitting above pitch level and get to see play from a better perspective than a coach at ground level either standing or sitting on the sidelines. 

[Sideshow Tim 110]

1 hour ago, Jerrykerry said:

Anyone who criticises mclean is an utter tool who simply does not watch the game. 

He is our most effective midfielder. 

Cheers for that balanced view Mr McLean

[Number9 272]

27 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yeah, I would go along with that. He is far better imo as an AM. Yet, without much defensive midfielder resources available at times this season, then KM has been deployed. He arguably has met his match. 

He cost peanuts compared to who he was playing against for most of the time this season.

So why doesn't Farke play him in his preferred position?

[repman 646]

34 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yeah, I would go along with that. He is far better imo as an AM. Yet, without much defensive midfielder resources available at times this season, then KM has been deployed. He arguably has met his match. 

He cost peanuts compared to who he was playing against for most of the time this season.

He had a run in attacking midfield this season and the results weren't all that great, his best performance in that role was probably Everton away where he simply won lots of headers. I will caveat this though by saying that no one has really performed in that position for us this season. 

[Mello Yello 2,319]

We need a Gerrard type of midfielder.....But we'd probably get the slip an' fall over an blow the Premiership title type Gerrard.....

[norfolkngood 1,101]

A Midfielder either has to Create Goals or score goals 

OR if more a DCM  breaks up play and give it to the Creative players who do the above 

Kenny Is not either of those Maybe a championship squad player who did not cost a lot 

But we need to aim higher this season 

No point having a Team with Kenny Mcleans next time we go up as they are not good enough for the EPL 

[Terminally Yellow 2,509]

9 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

A Midfielder either has to Create Goals or score goals 

OR if more a DCM  breaks up play and give it to the Creative players who do the above 

Kenny Is not either of those Maybe a championship squad player who did not cost a lot 

But we need to aim higher this season 

No point having a Team with Kenny Mcleans next time we go up as they are not good enough for the EPL 

And last season he scored 3 goals and created 6 assists in just 20 games.

He's not a Premier League player. But show me anyone in our team at the moment that is. He's a good championship level player and I expect him to be a central figure next season.

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

58 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Im sure you are correct in your summary Corky but I was interested in you saying that coaches have a better view of the games than fans. 

Most fans are sitting above pitch level and get to see play from a better perspective than a coach at ground level either standing or sitting on the sidelines. 

My statement was in reference to analysis . Real time analysis...there will be designated coaches watching on screens during the game and telling DF what they observe.  Detailed analysis.... will be done after the game.Remember  I qualified what I wrote with the caveat that this wasnt an insult to fans, just an insight by those who are at the coalface.

[paddycanary 542]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

He’s done quite well when played alongside Tettey and I would agree he’s our best “all round” midfielder. I don’t think he’s let us down this season and I think he’s a good option to have in the championship.

but perhaps one of the best illustrations of a part of the team we will need to have upgraded if we manage to get ourselves back up again.

hoping this Danish midfielder is also a good all round midfielder. 

Agreed Jim.

Our midfield looked at its most solid with Tettey & McLean sitting. For large parts of games this was adequate, but simply not competitive enough at this level. I expect McLean to be an important player next season. If we do manage to get back up again, you would hope that CDM & CM will be identified as positions that simply must be stronger than what we had available this season. 

Tettey is on the wane (still!), McLean is top Champo level, Leitner is probably leaving, Vrancic & Trybull are Champo level and the jury is still out on Rupp, although he might be useful next season. Poor Louis Thompson never got a sniff. 

Sorensen and Sitti will hopefully bed in well and then there's the likes of Gilmour, Adshead & Fitzpatrick who might see some senior pitch time in the near future, possibly out on loan. At the moment, we don't look to have even one "Premier quality" central midfielder on the books. Can we develop our own from within the current squad? 

[hogesar 9,838]

48 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

And last season he scored 3 goals and created 6 assists in just 20 games.

He's not a Premier League player. But show me anyone in our team at the moment that is. He's a good championship level player and I expect him to be a central figure next season.

Spot on

[Monty13 2,316]

3 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I think Rupp is giving him a run for his money at the moment. 

In terms of most likely to be a scapegoat, yea I’d agree.

[sonyc 5,542]

1 hour ago, Number9 said:

So why doesn't Farke play him in his preferred position?

Presumably because he has not had trust in the more defensive minded midfielders available? Therefore he has been played far more centrally than suits his more attacking instincts.

[sonyc 5,542]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

A Midfielder either has to Create Goals or score goals 

OR if more a DCM  breaks up play and give it to the Creative players who do the above 

Kenny Is not either of those Maybe a championship squad player who did not cost a lot 

But we need to aim higher this season 

No point having a Team with Kenny Mcleans next time we go up as they are not good enough for the EPL 

I agree with you actually. And though KM is decent at Championship level he would need to be replaced next year (should we be promoted again, the chances though being not great looking at which teams bounce straight back over recent history). If one agrees with this, do you persist in him? My take is that he is part of a bigger squad, assuming his appetite remains and his outlook is one of determination.

 

Apologies @paddycanary as I hadn't read your post before writing mine. Agree with your points and about McLean.

Edited July 18, 2020 by sonyc

[sgncfc 1,265]

I suspect that a lot of contributors to this messageboard never played football beyond school level, so it's a bit rich that they feel qualified to judge an individual players ability. You can look at everyones stats these days to see what their comparative contribution is, to supplement what you think you are seeing on the pitch and that should give you a reasonable idea about who is doing well and who isn't.

If you do that, you'll see that Maclean has done OK compared to those he is competing against for his place in the team. He is one of the few players who has improved his overall game this season - the only other ones being Krul and Hanley.

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

2 hours ago, Pugin said:

Noooooo!!

Firstly, Daniel would only ever speak about fans generally. He wouldn't suggest that Norwich fans are more or less knowledgeable than other fans. He is saying something that is understood within the game, and sometimes said.

Secondly, fans' perception of what is happening tactically is paper-thin. They see the obvious moves. They very rarely if ever see what changes the opposition has made and probably one in six of the changes we have made.

Thirdly, tactical ignorance is regularly illustrated by three sayings. a) the manager is tactically naieve. b) he has lost the changing room. c) he hasn't got a Plan B. These are the four lazy cliches which always betray a lack of football knowledge. The fact they are cliches makes them empty of any original thinking or meaning. They are a short-cut. If there is a point to be made, make it. Don't use someone else's cliche.

Another horrible cliche which has crept in - 'moving the ball through the thirds'. What pseudo-mumbo-jumbo. Once someone has said it once, that should have been its life expectancy expired.

Fourthly, there are those who think that managing a squad of 20 or 22 players is like playing FIFA. It really isn't. 

The local and national press don't really help understanding. I will give you a little challenge - find the last time that Daniel was asked a real FOOTBALL question by the Press. e.g. To what extent do you expect Emi to pick up a man and mark? or What changes do you make when it is obvious that your striker cannot compete in the air with his marker?

Daniel would love these questions and would respect the person asking them. Instead, he has to field inane mundanities and hear unqualified opinion.

Stats have a place, but need to be interpreted in the context of a player's role. Watch the game first. Cross reference with stats if you have to. 

I could go on, but I have bored myself already....

 

Largely agree Pugino butMoving through the thirds is a valid expression. There is an often used training exercise where the pitch is divided into 3, defensive, midfield and attacking 'thirds'.players are initially instructed to occupy their designated third and play begins. Depending on ball position, players are then instructed to vacate their original third and either join or stretch the play depending on the situation. This is either to achieve numerical superiority  or provide an outlet, sometimes both, depending on the situation being coached. Whether  fans or commentators use the expression In  the right instances is another ball game entirely 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I suspect that a lot of contributors to this messageboard never played football beyond school level, so it's a bit rich that they feel qualified to judge an individual players ability.

I find the argument that you need to have played football at a high standard to understand it or to see whether a player is effective or not on the pitch to be a somewhat weak one.

What level did Stuart Webber play at?

When did a song performed by Simon Cowell reach number 1? 

When did Eddie Hearn fight for the British title? 

Edited July 18, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[sgncfc 1,265]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I find the argument that you need to have played football at a high standard to understand it or to see whether a player is effective or not on the pitch to be a somewhat weak one.

What level did Stuart Webber play at?

When did a song performed by Simon Cowell reach number 1? 

When did Eddie Hearn fight for the British title? 

Well I think you've just proved my point. All of the people you mention are money makers and businessmen who judge purely on results. If you don't see why having done something at a high level is helpful to enable deep understanding of elite athletic performance then that does indeed explain some of your comments.

[Mr.Carrow 382]

McLean was/will be a seven out of ten consistent player in the championship. Successful teams need a few of those. But given he's up against£30m internationals most weeks he often struggles to hit a six. I'm not going to blame someone who cost £300k quite late in his career from Scotland for not being as good as Pulisic, Willian et al. 

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I find the argument that you need to have played football at a high standard to understand it or to see whether a player is effective or not on the pitch to be a somewhat weak one.

What level did Stuart Webber play at?

When did a song performed by Simon Cowell reach number 1? 

When did Eddie Hearn fight for the British title? 

Have to agree TuB,  I have encountered coaches that although 'wearing the badge' could not explain how to peel a banana. And others that despite not being highly qualified, have an innate  understanding , crystal clear explanation and demonstration of the point being made. What I found  most disturbing is that ex pros are often fast tracked through their badges  , not having to go through the lower level qualifications . Jobs for the boys and all that.

BUT, the ideal combination of course is someone who has played at a decently high level AND can coach well. Punters opinions are of course valid but not really taken into account by most Coaches/managers. Such is life....and footy.

Edited July 18, 2020 by wcorkcanary

[BroadstairsR 2,239]

Opine as much you like about Russel Martin as a player, and I'll always come down 100% in his favour,  but as frequently forecast he seems to be making a good fist of management:.

(From EDP re:his management of MK Dons.)

 

"The Dons were much-improved after former Norwich City favourite Russell Martin took charge last November, escaping the relegation fight.

Chairman Pete Winkleman said: “Russell is getting us back to that Milton Keynes Dons way. We are a dynamic, football-playing team. We want to be a very entertaining and exciting team to watch. We want to improve our players and increase the value of our players.

“I think Russell is a serious manager and I’m really excited to see what we can do next year. I’ve got great confidence in him being able to get us back to what MK Dons has been about since Paul Ince in 2007.

“My task is to make sure that I can get as many as the players on his list as possible to give us the best fighting chance of going back up the table.”

 

Good on ya Russ, say I.

Edited July 18, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[hogesar 9,838]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

McLean was/will be a seven out of ten consistent player in the championship. Successful teams need a few of those. But given he's up against£30m internationals most weeks he often struggles to hit a six. I'm not going to blame someone who cost £300k quite late in his career from Scotland for not being as good as Pulisic, Willian et al. 

Yep

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yep

Seconded. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

30 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Well I think you've just proved my point. All of the people you mention are money makers and businessmen who judge purely on results. If you don't see why having done something at a high level is helpful to enable deep understanding of elite athletic performance then that does indeed explain some of your comments.

OK but Josep Drmic has just been sent abusive messages by a well known local non-league footballer, and he decided that Drmic isn't very good.

Only, you can then say "unless you've played professionally like Drmic then you don't have the right to judge his ability", then Jamie Cureton could pipe up and say "Drmic isn't very good", then you could say "You haven't played in a World Cup Cureton, you can't judge". 

But then of course you can turn on the telly or Talksport and hear former pros talking guff every day of the week. Actually, you can hear former pros take completely opposite positions on things like this every day.

You have had quite a lot to say about the people running the football club, and I valued and respected your contributions as you seemed to know a lot about the world of business. But one could be pedantic and say "if you haven't even run a club at Conference South level then what makes you think you can judge Stuart Webber". 

And where does this really stop. Are you saying that if somebody couldn't get in their school team they aren't qualified to point out that Omar Korona appears to have conned people into believing that he could play football, or that Theoklitos appeared not to be good enough to get a game at King's Lynn? 

"Theoklitos is rubbish"

"Oh, right, have you even ever played the game at a decent level?"

"No, I had severe asthma and one leg shorter than the other, but I've been to 1200 games". 

I'm a bit of a boxing anorak, terrible at actual boxing, do I need to have had amateur fights to understand why it is that Tyson Fury is the best heavyweight in the world? How his ability to switch from orthodox to southpaw a dozen times a round makes it incredibly difficult for the opponent to find their rhythm? Its how be bamboozled Wladmir. How he has freakishly quick feet and agility for a man of his size and weight?

Is this any different to seeing that one centre midfielder doesn't spot the right pass enough, or another one doesn't move into space and make himself available for the ball as much as he should? Or that a winger doesn't track the opposition full back and puts our full back under too much pressure?

Stats like "most ground covered" can be incredibly misleading. I mean, you could throw out a "only player to reach 35 kmph in the game" stat, or "ran more than 30 kmph more than any other player on the pitch" stat and then plonk Usain Bolt into your side couldn't you. He'd still be a complete donkey with the first touch of Goran Maric. 

That's why it makes no sense to throw out one random stat in defence of a player.

Edited July 18, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

33 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

If you don't see why having done something at a high level is helpful to enable deep understanding of elite athletic performance then that does indeed explain some of your comments.

Tone of this unnecessarily sour.

You've had quite a lot to say about our players ability and their strengths and weaknesses recently, and I'm assuming therefore that you consider yourself suitably qualified to do so, go on then... what was the "high level" you played at? 

Please don't say Anglian Combination. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[FenwayFrank 2,475]

Everyone knows that the pinnacle of coaching qualifications is having played 30 games at Sloughbottom