What on earth has happened to us?

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

If you think there was more 'desire' from Everton on that pitch I'll never be able to find compromise with you! It just isn't true!

Was there less quality ... hell yes.

Have Everton spent hundreds of millions of pounds more than us ... hell yes.

 

Questioning the desire of your own club's players is a vicious criticism that should be reserved for footballers that really deserve it. Not these boys.

If it was just the quality, why have we been able to produce decent performances, even in defeat at times? 

Everton and Southampton were not that good, we managed a single shot on target in both (maybe two v Saints?) and haven't tested the keeper in over 180 minutes of football. Hell, Everton had the same quality in November, but our effort and endeavour bagged us a win at Goodison. That effort just was not there today.

Do you genuinely think that we only had the quality to produce a single shot at goal against a side we turned over away? 

They looked like an up for it, motivated side at Goodison Park, with enough quality to get two goals. They looked a shadow of that today. Lethargic, chaotic, disjointed and unmotivated.

[king canary 7,655]

I don't think we lacked desire. We do clearly lack confidence and belief in our own abilities and that is shown in the way our heads dropped when we conceded. Up until that point I thought we'd been OK.

Edited June 24, 2020 by king canary

[hogesar 9,726]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think we lacked desire. We do clearly lack confidence and believe in our own abilities and that is shown in the way our heads dropped when we conceded. Up until that point I thought we'd been OK.

A surprising feature this season has been despite being bottom we've not played like a bottom-of-the-table side in terms of approach and attitude.

That's gone now I think. It happens to most teams at the bottom eventually, normally sooner than it has us. Sometimes a lucky deflected goal to win a game can completely change things but we've not looked like getting the rub of the green ever since that Pukki goal was ruled offside vs Spurs.

[Aggy 764]

It’s also a difficult one on the team selection. I wasn’t too upset with the starting line up - we’ve been bottom for ages playing Pukki, Buendia, Cantwell, so why not try something else. That said, with hindsight, had one or two of them been on from the start in this game (where we were solider and actually competed pretty evenly for most of the game) then I reckon we could have nicked something.

No doubt people will say “it’s easy to say that with hindsight”, and it is. But ultimately all managers live and die by their decisions. Did I think Farke’s selection tonight was wrong at the time? No necessarily. Did it turn out to be ? I think yes. At Southampton the whole set up was completely wrong. 

That’s two must win games, one of which the manager set us up completely wrong, and the second of which he got the starting eleven wrong. He has to take some blame. The players take most of the blame at Southampton because they were just well off the pace. Tonight, the players were decent and competed, we just lacked quality which Buendia, Pukki, Cantwell could have provided. And we also conceded from another set piece, which the manager takes the blame for imo. We can’t keep doing the same things over and over defending set plays and not sort it out on the training ground.

[Foxy2600 305]

Journeymen with greater ambitions - if DF comes up with a plan this weekend, I for one will be happy. If it all turns to a brown cloud, I’ll be demanding heads roll whilst wallowing in the prospect of a Championship without VAR. accessible games, Tuesday night at Bornmuff or Reading -  Cheap entrance fees for us sponging exiles. And another Cup Run - it’s a long time... once a Canary always a Canary. 

[City 2nd 191]

1 hour ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

You must have a different BBC to me because they have not torn us to shreds on the BBC I am watching. They were critical of our marking at the corner and said we will be relegated, hardly tearing us to shreds......

You obviously didn't watch the half time chat . Ncfc were complete dross and they didn't pull any punches at all in letting the viewing public know just how bad we were that's the BBC I had. And if you were happy with that -  well some diehards have a problem just like you.

The two televised matches this week involving ncfc have been a total emarassment.

[Aggy 764]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think we lacked desire. We do clearly lack confidence and believe in our own abilities and that is shown in the way our heads dropped when we conceded. Up until that point I thought we'd been OK.

Why I think next season will be hard. I’d be perfectly happy with Farke here next season, but we got promoted last season on a wave of good performances and optimism. Some games we won 3-2, 2-1 last year could easily have gone the other way if we didn’t have that momentum and team spirit and confidence. It might be easier for a new coach to get that next year than Farke. But he deserves a chance to try.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

1 minute ago, City 2nd said:

You obviously didn't watch the half time chat . Ncfc were complete dross and they didn't pull any punches at all in letting the viewing public know just how bad we were that's the BBC I had. And if you were happy with that -  well some diehards have a problem just like you.

The two televised matches this week involving ncfc have been a total emarassment.

🎯

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Aggy said:

Why I think next season will be hard. I’d be perfectly happy with Farke here next season, but we got promoted last season on a wave of good performances and optimism. Some games we won 3-2, 2-1 last year could easily have gone the other way if we didn’t have that momentum and team spirit and confidence. It might be easier for a new coach to get that next year than Farke. But he deserves a chance to try.

He might still win us the FA Cup! If he does that he can take us as low as Lambert has taken Ipswich and sleep with my wife and I'd still say he shouldn't be sacked! 

[Crafty Canary 497]

I would expect quite a few are on their way and don’t want to get injured. 

[king canary 7,655]

1 minute ago, Aggy said:

Why I think next season will be hard. I’d be perfectly happy with Farke here next season, but we got promoted last season on a wave of good performances and optimism. Some games we won 3-2, 2-1 last year could easily have gone the other way if we didn’t have that momentum and team spirit and confidence. It might be easier for a new coach to get that next year than Farke. But he deserves a chance to try.

Yes, that is my fear too.

He got that team going brilliantly but they've clearly taken an absolute battering to their confidence this season. PLayers who thought they had it in them to play at the top level have been shown they can't really. His biggest challenge is restoring the mindset and I think in part that'll involve some fresh blood and moving on a few players, even if they were effective in the Championship before. McCallum and Sitti are good starts in my book.

[Foxy2600 305]

He might still win us the FA Cup! If he does that he can take us as low as Lambert has taken Ipswich and sleep with my wife and I'd still say he shouldn't be sacked! 

• NOW THAT MADE ME SPILL MY BEER  😂

[Cantiaci Canary 558]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

If it was just the quality, why have we been able to produce decent performances, even in defeat at times? 

Everton and Southampton were not that good, we managed a single shot on target in both (maybe two v Saints?) and haven't tested the keeper in over 180 minutes of football. Hell, Everton had the same quality in November, but our effort and endeavour bagged us a win at Goodison. That effort just was not there today.

Do you genuinely think that we only had the quality to produce a single shot at goal against a side we turned over away? 

They looked like an up for it, motivated side at Goodison Park, with enough quality to get two goals. They looked a shadow of that today. Lethargic, chaotic, disjointed and unmotivated.

Unmotivated?

You've got it wrong - I'm sorry.

 

Regarding the other points ...

We're not a conference team playing in the Champions League. We're not THAT far off being good enough to survive BUT we have to be firing at 100% to win games against teams playing at 80%.

We beat Everton previously because, at that time, they were operating well below par and we played well.

We aren't playing well at the moment but that's not due to desire or motivation it's due to just being in a poor run of form (which all teams suffer from) and feeling the sickening realisation that top tier status is slipping away.

When we operate at 80% teams in the Prem will ease past us ... as Soton and Everton did. They don't want to be at 80%, they are trying not to be at 80% but until something clicks or they get a lucky bounce it is tough to turn that dial up.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Cantiaci Canary

[Nuff Said 5,173]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes we were bottom before lockdown and losing plenty, but we were massively unlucky in a lot of defeats and went down fighting. We were earning plaudits like "best bottom side in Premier League history" and "their performances are better than their league position". 

Now we're looking like challenging the infamous Derby and Sunderland sides as the Premier League's worst ever. No fight, no guts, no leadership, no effort, no chances, no goals, no quality. 

Maybe we actually are the best fans in the world, we're the difference between a half decent side and a team that would struggle in the Anglian Combination. 

Did you see the games against Man U and West Ham, to mention two? We were just as bad then. Inconsistency has always been an issue during Farke’s tenure and we’re seeing it again, with the added influence now of relegation, potential transfers and the coronavirus. It’s hardly a surprise that we’re not at our best. Maybe a different ‘blood and guts’ manager could have fired the team up, but that’s never been Farke’s style.

[canarydan23 4,060]

15 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Unmotivated?

You've got it wrong - I'm sorry.

Nope. If you thought that was a side who walked off the pitch at the end having left everything out there then I don't really know what to say. 

[Making Plans 940]

12 hours ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

We're not THAT far off being good enough to survive

We are in fact a million miles off being good enough to survive and that's why we are not going to survive

[Making Plans 940]

12 hours ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

We're not THAT far off being good enough to survive

We are in fact a million miles off being good enough to survive and that's why we are not going to survive

[The Raptor 1,231]

15 hours ago, South Sider said:

The fans being there.

Thats the only difference. Not sure it needed a thread.

If the fans had been there it would've been a bigger defeat. Five minutes of noise at the start then the 'support' would've been moaning everytime we lost the ball, every time drmic got the ball (he's not pukki). A quick chorus of OTBC after Everton scored then back to moaning. Not ideal for the players. 

 

I include myself in that before anyone starts to have a go at me. I woukd certainly have made my feelings clear at the last two games. 

 

 

 

[Indy 3,314]

The reality is three years of Farke & Webber, we’ve built a team from mostly our youth set up, second  division German players a few million pound signings and in that three years, we’ve gone from reported  30 million shortfall, a fan share option to finance remedial work required at Colney, keeping cat 1youth set up. We had a shed load of very expensive journeymen who didn’t want to play for norwich who had to be offloaded.

Given where we are now with the youth recruitment, the development of our youngsters in the first team, a season in the premiership off the back of winning the Championship, there’s a lot of very sad city supporters who really need to take a step back from the constant criticism and actually reflect what a fantastic job Webber and Farke have done, rather than calling for them to go!
 

Take a chill pill and enjoy the club for what we are.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Indy

[Cantiaci Canary 558]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

The reality is three years of Farke & Webber, we’ve built a team from mostly our youth set up, second  division German players a few million pound signings and in that three years, we’ve gone from reported  30 million shortfall, a fan share option to finance remedial work required at Colney, keeping cat 1youth set up. We had a shed load of very expensive journeymen who didn’t want to play for norwich who had to be offloaded.

Given where we are now with the youth recruitment, the development of our youngsters in the first team, a season in the premiership off the back of winning the Championship, there’s a lot of very sad city supporters who really need to take a step back from the constant criticism and actually reflect what a fantastic job Webber and Farke have done, rather than calling for them to go!
 

Take a chill pill and enjoy the club for what we are.

THIS

[Cantiaci Canary 558]

15 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Nope. If you thought that was a side who walked off the pitch at the end having left everything out there then I don't really know what to say. 

I would love to see you walk into the team's dressing room after the FT whistle and say to their faces that they were 'unmotivated'. 

That accusation is wildly incorrect, and unfair.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,036]

3 hours ago, Making Plans said:

We are in fact a million miles off being good enough to survive and that's why we are not going to survive

I have told you a million times before, stop exaggerating............

[Aggy 764]

17 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Nope. If you thought that was a side who walked off the pitch at the end having left everything out there then I don't really know what to say. 

Against Southampton I would agree. Against Everton I thought most players did put in their all (although I did clock Aarons and Duda both strolling back on a couple of occasions, even first half). 

[FenwayFrank 2,465]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

The reality is three years of Farke & Webber, we’ve built a team from mostly our youth set up, second  division German players a few million pound signings and in that three years, we’ve gone from reported  30 million shortfall, a fan share option to finance remedial work required at Colney, keeping cat 1youth set up. We had a shed load of very expensive journeymen who didn’t want to play for norwich who had to be offloaded.

Given where we are now with the youth recruitment, the development of our youngsters in the first team, a season in the premiership off the back of winning the Championship, there’s a lot of very sad city supporters who really need to take a step back from the constant criticism and actually reflect what a fantastic job Webber and Farke have done, rather than calling for them to go!
 

Take a chill pill and enjoy the club for what we are.

👍 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

19 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Statistically you are correct Uncle Fred and let's be fair they mean everything to some posters.

Do you agree with Fred, TIL?

Farke is the worst premier league manager we have ever had?

[TIL 1010 4,786]

17 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Do you agree with Fred, TIL?

Farke is the worst premier league manager we have ever had?

The statistics say that which is what some posters use to measure success or failure.

[Uncle Fred 526]

22 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Do you agree with Fred, TIL?

Farke is the worst premier league manager we have ever had?

Look at his record and compare to the others , it’s not an opinion it’s a statement of fact 

[Barbe bleu 832]

4 hours ago, Indy said:

The reality is three years of Farke & Webber, we’ve built a team from mostly our youth set up, second  division German players a few million pound signings and in that three years, we’ve gone from reported  30 million shortfall, a fan share option to finance remedial work required at Colney, keeping cat 1youth set up. We had a shed load of very expensive journeymen who didn’t want to play for norwich who had to be offloaded.

Given where we are now with the youth recruitment, the development of our youngsters in the first team, a season in the premiership off the back of winning the Championship, there’s a lot of very sad city supporters who really need to take a step back from the constant criticism and actually reflect what a fantastic job Webber and Farke have done, rather than calling for them to go!
 

Take a chill pill and enjoy the club for what we are.

Probably the best relegation season we have ever had

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

38 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

The statistics say that which is what some posters use to measure success or failure.

I was asking for your personal opinion, not what 'some posters' think. As someone who regular aims his finger further up the cub's hierarchy I'm not sure why you are so happy to follow Fred's line here.

34 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

Look at his record and compare to the others , it’s not an opinion it’s a statement of fact 

Yes, I agree, in terms of points this is the worst season we have had in the prem.

But does that immediately mean that this must also be the worst manager we've ever had in the prem too, is it that simple to you?

I would argue that there hasn't been a Norwich City manager in the premier league with harsher constraints laid on to him before the season started than this year. In fact, I would go further and argue that there has been no manager (EVER - not exclusively Norwich managers) in the prem with harsher constraints to fight against.

To recap:

• Surprise promotion from the championship from nowhere after laying off our best players and drastically chopping our wage bill with a complete overhaul of the squad, with heavy contracts being shipped out for little to no recuperation and cheap buys and freebies coming in to replace them.
• Reliance on youth - The promotion came with a heavy reliance on youth players pulling through and doing the job, but how far can we expect those players to go?
• No investment - Despite these points, he was given the lowest PL transfer budget in years! When accounting for inflation and proportional spend of rivals, it was probably the most pitiful transfer efforts of a newly promoted team to the PL since its inauguration.
• Failure of the signings that were made - The signings we were given, overseen by Webber (not Farke) have been for the most part largely disappointing. Last season where we managed to continually pull the rabbit of the hat with signings (Buendia, Pukki, Krul (in the end)) and youth players coming through (Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis, Cantwell) - where have they been this season?
• Injuries - We have been plagued with injury problems since the start of the season, particularly in the defence,
• Plenty of bad luck along the way - Plus many games where points were dropped through sheer bad luck or poor refereeing decisions; off the top of my head there was Aston Villa away, Crystal Palace at home, Sheff United at home, Leicester away, Spurs at home AND away, Arsenal at home. All of these performances earnt us plenty of plaudits and appreciation but sadly not the points that we so desperately needed.

Now, I think any one or two of these constraints may be something that we could've dealt with, but when happening altogether to one team I think these problems - notably outside of Farke's control - have compounded our plight.

And whilst we've had two extremely disappointing performances and results - the Southampton game in particular was inexcusably poor - and some questionable tactical decisions (or lack of),  let's not forget everything that came before and got us to where we are now. Both the good and the bad.

When factoring in the context of the season, I would strongly argue that Hughton's second season, after a good deal of investment in new players (even in comparison to other teams not just a good deal of investment 'for us') and a decent couple of season of stability already in the PL, was much more of a disappointment.

I would still rather Farke be at the helm than any of our former premier league managers.

With all that said, if you really still believe:

Worst points tally ever in the prem =  worst manager ever in the prem

Then apologies I appear to have completely wasted my time.

[curious yellow 184]

23 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes we were bottom before lockdown and losing plenty, but we were massively unlucky in a lot of defeats and went down fighting. We were earning plaudits like "best bottom side in Premier League history" and "their performances are better than their league position". 

 

As you say, we were looking good before the break, now we have lost any way to gain an advantage over the teams above us. 

All the teams at the bottom and promoted sides are struggling. Everything that we were working for and beginning to achieve has been taken away from us.

It was mission impossible under the circumstances, if you look to deconstruct what was there you will end up with nothing.