Corona Virus main thread

[Well b back 3,208]

Fauci has apparently just questioned AZ again, more to follow.

[Van wink 2,994]

22 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Fauci has apparently just questioned AZ again, more to follow.

AstraZeneca  has defended its use of Covid-19 vaccine data after US authorities suggested some results may be "outdated".

AstraZeneca said figures released on Monday showing the jab was 79 per cent effective against coronavirus and 100 per cent effective against severe disease stood up in all of the data it has looked at.  

It comes as a response to concerns raised by the US federal health officials on Tuesday morning that AstraZeneca may have included out-of-date drug data in information provided during US trials for the vaccine.  

AstraZeneca  said: "The numbers published yesterday were based on a  pre-specified  interim analysis with a data cut-off of February 17.

"We have reviewed the preliminary assessment of the primary analysis and the results were consistent with the interim analysis."

The company said they will "engage" with the DSMB to share their most "up-to-date" efficacy data and they intend to issue results of the primary analysis within 48 hours.

Dr Peter English, former editor of Vaccines In Practice magazine, said the US statement showed "shamefully bad communication" that "left room for speculation which could be damaging for vaccine uptake".

[Essjayess 307]

37 minutes ago, ricardo said:

National

5379 - 112

Local

I looked closely at nearly all areas of the UK as regards new infections and the 7 day rolling rate. There is now almost a 50/50 split in areas where infections are showing small rises and those showing small decreases, Norfolk is a perfect example of whats happening nationally with small increases in Norwich, Broadland and North Norfolk and small decreases in rest of the county.  But nowhere was there any sharp movements in either direction, which suggests as of now that  around a 5k a day in new infections is and has been the average for a couple of weeks, albeit with still a very slight decrease.

But the two most important areas, deaths and hospital admissions  have  shown big decreases of course and the decrease amounts are still pretty good. That, more than anything else is the good and positive thing and the testing and vaccination programs are doing their job in stifling the virus, without of course eradicating it. The one big test naturally will come as lockdown slowly eases, that is to come, but for now  things still improve.

[paul moy 235]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

That quote says Western countries bought their way to the front of the queue by partnering with drug companies. 

I would interpret this differently. Western countries put up the investment money to research a vaccine cure and therefore earned the right to be first in the queue. 

There was nothing stopping the ASEAN organisation of south-east Asian countries grouping together to provide investment money to research a Covid vaccine. Nor nothing stopping the Association of South American countries doing the same. Or even the oil rich countries of the Middle East. But they all decided not to do this and stood back and let countries the the UK take the risk of putting up the money to find a cure. So yes, we do have a right to be first in the queue. Having said that we do have a responsibility to help others after we have taken care of our own and working with the Commonwealth countries is the ideal place to start. 

Also, the UK put in around £9 per capita to the EU's £2 so we should indeed be ahead of the EU in vaccine supply. 

The EU incidentally passes 600,000 covid deaths this week and many now and into the future will be due to vaccine hesitancy caused by the EU itself denigrating the super AstraZeneca, not supply, as they have a massive stockpile.

[Mark .Y. 352]

20 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

All it is Mark is that we've all heard for weeks for purely political spin how the UK govt got ahead of the curve and set up (in the UK) our own manufacturing principally for AZ but eventually for others too and its not 'our' fault that the EU was slower for whatever reasons. Now it transpires that we are actually trying to export EU manufactured AZ (as well as Pfizer) to us. Clearly something is not quite as it would seem in our papers - our 'spin' on a much more complicated situation.

Lastly - I put this up again as it seems to be conveniently missed by many who only read what they want to read.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/astrazeneca-signed-vaccine-contract-with-eu-at-the-same-time-and-with-the-same-terms-as-uk-221293/

or

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

The final contracts with AZ (what everybody argues about) - the EU signed a day BEFORE the UK. 

Blows a somewhat big hole in what I can only describe as the 'UK/Brexiteer' needless rhetoric of we were first in the queue (its actually again not a queue situation but one of conflicting contracts)

Put this all aside - what I'm pleased about is that it appears Johnson is trying as of this morning to find or agree a solution to these AZ issues and resources with the EU. If he doesn't meet them 1/2 way then I have no doubt that on Thursday the EU will slow down deliveries to UK for their own political reasons (the demands of their own electorates as to fair play) of all vaccines to the detriment of us all in the long term.

Look, I don't have any axe to grind with the EU at all, I have an apartment in Spain which I really have missed over the last 13 months, I just want to get back and visit again.

But, it does seem to me that they didn't quite get all this right. Not surprising when you are dealing with a number of member states and you are in a situation that you have never seen before.

As for the timing of the signing of the contracts (which shouldn't make any difference if AZ agreed to supply a certain amount of doses in a certain timescale), I can find plenty of links that suggest the UK signed with AZ in May/June 2020 and this link, from the EU itself says they signed in late August 2020........so make what you will of that.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_302    

Should add that the May thing was a licensing agreement which (and I don't understand the details of such stuff) but it appears to be important........copy and paste below

"The UK's contract is in fact dated Aug 28, one day after the EU's, although an earlier licensing deal in May between the parties of Oxford University, AstraZeneca and the Government appears to trump the later purchasing agreements"

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mark .Y.
Forgot to include an important bit

[ricardo 7,395]

I think you need to understand that this has nothing to do with vaccine supply and everything to do with "Look squirrel"

[paul moy 235]

22 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

Look, I don't have any axe to grind with the EU at all, I have an apartment in Spain which I really have missed over the last 13 months, I just want to get back and visit again.

But, it does seem to me that they didn't quite get all this right. Not surprising when you are dealing with a number of member states and you are in a situation that you have never seen before.

As for the timing of the signing of the contracts (which shouldn't make any difference if AZ agreed to supply a certain amount of doses in a certain timescale), I can find plenty of links that suggest the UK signed with AZ in May 2020 and this link, from the EU itself says they signed in late August 2020........so make what you will of that.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_302    

Should add that the May thing was a licensing agreement which (and I don't understand the details of such stuff) but it appears to be important........copy and paste below

"The UK's contract is in fact dated Aug 28, one day after the EU's, although an earlier licensing deal in May between the parties of Oxford University, AstraZeneca and the Government appears to trump the later purchasing agreements"

 

Due to the contract with AZ we are entitled to the first 100 million doses.  It cannot be simpler !!!!!

[kick it off 1,952]

On 21/03/2021 at 01:12, kick it off said:

Kids started back at school 13 days ago. I would suggest that maybe give it a few more weeks before making any assertions either way.

FWIW, one school near me is entirely closed due to an outbreak. The school my Mum teaches at was delayed returning by a week because a kid's parent had tested positive but they had sent the kid in anyway and nobody knew for two days about the parent's positive status. The school I teach in currently has 27 students and 2 staff members isolating due to a positive case. 

Update - now have 70+ kids and a few more staff isolating due to positive cases in my school. Nearly 10% of the school. Chaos.

[paul moy 235]

How stupid are these EU MEPs   !!   🤣😂

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1413599/AstraZeneca-contract-UK-Vaccine-Germany-EU-Europe-Priority

 

[Fen Canary 824]

From what I have read, the only company that has fallen behind on their delivery to the EU is the Oxford-AstraZeneca one, and that has been caused by their factories within the EU itself (and to a lesser extent India). Britain has had almost no Oxford-Astra vaccines from EU plants, as the UKs imported vaccines from the factories in Europe are from other companies that are keeping up with their agreed supply timeframes with the EU.

To halt these due to a dispute with a single company, which appears to be more down to the EUs less than competent contract arrangements than anything else simply comes across as downright nasty and a cynical distraction from their own rollout failures, especially when they have millions of unused Oxford-Astra jabs sitting unused due their unfounded scare tactics. 
 

https://www.bbc.com/news/56483766

[Herman 9,767]

 

[kick it off 1,952]

From the Times Educational Supplement

[Yellow Fever 3,786]

14 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

Look, I don't have any axe to grind with the EU at all, I have an apartment in Spain which I really have missed over the last 13 months, I just want to get back and visit again.

But, it does seem to me that they didn't quite get all this right. Not surprising when you are dealing with a number of member states and you are in a situation that you have never seen before.

As for the timing of the signing of the contracts (which shouldn't make any difference if AZ agreed to supply a certain amount of doses in a certain timescale), I can find plenty of links that suggest the UK signed with AZ in May/June 2020 and this link, from the EU itself says they signed in late August 2020........so make what you will of that.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_302    

Should add that the May thing was a licensing agreement which (and I don't understand the details of such stuff) but it appears to be important........copy and paste below

"The UK's contract is in fact dated Aug 28, one day after the EU's, although an earlier licensing deal in May between the parties of Oxford University, AstraZeneca and the Government appears to trump the later purchasing agreements"

 

Thanks Mark.

I think we are all saying much same thing - the Politico (highly respected) thread I put up went into endless unbiased details giving the arguments of the two eventual contracts and legal systems under which each resides but the catchy eye-opener was indeed the date of the final purchase contracts which of course wasn't widely published in the UK (not that the dates legally actually matter much) in the local propaganda spiel.

Truth is as I said before AZ have got themselves in a legal mess with the best of intentions which is the root of all the issues and common sense and compromise should resolve it for all.

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think we are all saying much same thing - the Politico (highly respected) thread I put up went into endless unbiased details giving the arguments of the two eventual contracts and legal systems under which each resides but the catchy eye-opener was indeed the date of the final purchase contracts which of course wasn't widely published in the UK (not that the dates legally actually matter much) in the local propaganda spiel.

Truth is as I said before AZ have got themselves in a legal mess with the best of intentions which is the root of all the issues and common sense and compromise should resolve it for all.

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

Agree that is the nub of the matter although I think there is definitely a question over whether they did it with the best of intentions given the extremely disingenuous way (polite hat on today) that AZ have responded to the mess that they created - of course our government and right wing press haven't helped either but that was par for the course - I think that hoping for common sense and compromise to resolve it is possibly a tad optimistic.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

28 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Thanks Mark.

I think we are all saying much same thing - the Politico (highly respected) thread I put up went into endless unbiased details giving the arguments of the two eventual contracts and legal systems under which each resides but the catchy eye-opener was indeed the date of the final purchase contracts which of course wasn't widely published in the UK (not that the dates legally actually matter much) in the local propaganda spiel.

Truth is as I said before AZ have got themselves in a legal mess with the best of intentions which is the root of all the issues and common sense and compromise should resolve it for all.

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

Thanks YF.  I agree completely that there should be a sensible discussion to agree a compromise solution.

 

Having said this, I think the Politico article you linked is very interesting, but it will be pretty uncomfortable reading for the EU commission, I noticed this part near the start :

The level of specificity [in the UK and EU contracts] is partially due to the legal systems they're based on. The U.K. contract is written in English law, which will judge whether both parties delivered the goods based on the exact wording of the contract. The EU contract is written in Belgian law, which focuses on whether both parties tried their best to deliver the goods and acted in good faith.

It's these extra details that give the U.K. more leverage to ensure its contract is delivered effectively. While both contracts say all parties will make their “best reasonable effort” to deliver the vaccine, the U.K. government is clearer in asserting its oversight of the agreement.

This core difference, according to a lawyer familiar with the development of the U.K. text, can be chalked up to the fact that the contract sealed with London was written by people with significant experience of purchasing agreements, specifically drug-buying deals. The European Commission’s contract, by contrast, shows a lack of commercial common sense, in the lawyer’s view.

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,786]

15 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Thanks YF.  I agree completely that there should be a sensible discussion to agree a compromise solution.

 

Having said this, I think the Politico article you linked is very interesting, but it will be pretty uncomfortable reading for the EU commission, I noticed this part near the start :

The level of specificity [in the UK and EU contracts] is partially due to the legal systems they're based on. The U.K. contract is written in English law, which will judge whether both parties delivered the goods based on the exact wording of the contract. The EU contract is written in Belgian law, which focuses on whether both parties tried their best to deliver the goods and acted in good faith.

It's these extra details that give the U.K. more leverage to ensure its contract is delivered effectively. While both contracts say all parties will make their “best reasonable effort” to deliver the vaccine, the U.K. government is clearer in asserting its oversight of the agreement.

This core difference, according to a lawyer familiar with the development of the U.K. text, can be chalked up to the fact that the contract sealed with London was written by people with significant experience of purchasing agreements, specifically drug-buying deals. The European Commission’s contract, by contrast, shows a lack of commercial common sense, in the lawyer’s view.

 

 

Yes it's a balanced factual article warts and all for everybody pros and cons both sides. That's all I ask is the facts not the hyperbole.  It's AZ that have made the problem. All that said it's now in the realm of politics which will trump all of this.  

[paul moy 235]

 

Yet another arrogant EU MEP loser denigrating AstraZeneca.....

Time to move all AZ production to the UK imo:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1414004/Phillippe-Lamberts-AstraZeneca-vaccine-EU-latest-coronavirus-BBC-Radio-4-update-vn

[paul moy 235]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes it's a balanced factual article warts and all for everybody pros and cons both sides. That's all I ask is the facts not the hyperbole.  It's AZ that have made the problem. All that said it's now in the realm of politics which will trump all of this.  

Rubbish.  The EU made the problem  by ordering late from AZ and also investing in failing vaccine companies in the EU such as french Senofi rather than AZ.

This was compounded by the UK choosing the right company to invest in and having a contract for the first 100 million doses.

The contract with the EU is a 'best endeavours' contract which sits below the UK in priority, so the EU has no leg to stand on.

 

[Well b back 3,208]

Time to move all AZ production to the UK imo:
 

Is the magic Oxford and Pfizer tree been growing some more doses. You really talk some complete tosh.

I have asked about 9 times now, I will try again, what do you feel about the US banning all exports and storing 100 million doses at least and India ( who were a large part of the development of the Oxford vaccine ) are insisting most of the vaccine produced stays in India. This is what you are accusing the EU of yet they are only threatening to do  it, fuelled by people like you goading them. Last nights comments by Johnson have just fuelled it more.

[Well b back 3,208]

1 hour ago, paul moy said:

Rubbish.  The EU made the problem  by ordering late from AZ and also investing in failing vaccine companies in the EU such as french Senofi rather than AZ.

This was compounded by the UK choosing the right company to invest in and having a contract for the first 100 million doses.

The contract with the EU is a 'best endeavours' contract which sits below the UK in priority, so the EU has no leg to stand on.

 

Johnson’s comments last night ( although again he was probably talking out of his a@@@ ) suggest we used greed and capitalism, when it was always understood we got them at cost, then when explained what he had said quickly tried to cover up. 
We will see later today but those comments could see the EU joining the US, China, Russia and to a lesser degree India.

Like I say he probably didn’t mean what he said, but unfortunately he said it and his position you cannot say things like that. He must be well respected as well as ‘ a number of his mps ‘ went straight to the press.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I did take his comment, when it was first made public, was that he was stirring it.

The only thing he has got right is the vaccine. He is under pressure to start an inquiry and Brexit isn't going well at all.

I thought he was trying to deflect any controversy onto AZ and the EU.

No-one can deny the success of the rollout but it may well slow down soon. And in case there is clamour from the media, I just think he is preparing a defence of blame.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Anyone see Ferguson this morning?

He is not convinced there will be another wave. He thinks Europe are just on catch up with the variants and are where we were new year.

[Yellow Fever 3,786]

29M AZ doses discovered in Italy apparently destined for UK.

I wonder when AZ were going tell the EU?

Bang goes any remaining goodwill.

https://www.politico.eu/article/italian-authorities-discover-29m-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-doses-la-stampa/

Edited March 24, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[Well b back 3,208]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

29M AZ doses discovered in Italy apparently destined for UK.

I wonder when AZ where going tell the EU?

Bang goes any remaining goodwill.

https://www.politico.eu/article/italian-authorities-discover-29m-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-doses-la-stampa/

Impossible we don’t get any from Europe. 
I must say I have followed the Oxford story almost from day 1 and I found it quite surprising we were saying we had had no vaccine from the Netherlands, from November onwards I always understood that was where our first doses were coming from. We even saw pictures of them being flown in.

All very strange. AZ could clear this up by speaking to the US but everybody seems scared to challenge the US.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

29M AZ doses discovered in Italy apparently destined for UK.

I wonder when AZ where going tell the EU?

Bang goes any remaining goodwill.

https://www.politico.eu/article/italian-authorities-discover-29m-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-doses-la-stampa/

OK but the story says these were from a manufacturing plant in the Netherlands which has not yet been approved for manufacture for the EU so they were going to be sent to the UK, but have been held up by the export ban from Italy.

 

So basically 29m doses are sat there rather than being used, thanks to the EU's export ban. 

 

Maybe the EU should get a move on to approve the Dutch plant for manufacture for the EU in which case AZ could have used them in the EU, rather than whingeing about everything ?

 

If ever there was a case for the saying "fix the problem, not the blame" this is it.  It's painfully obvious the EU has completely mismanaged the entire vaccine program and time for them to move on and try to sort out the problems rather than trying to deflect attention by flailing around.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

44 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Time to move all AZ production to the UK imo:
 

Is the magic Oxford and Pfizer tree been growing some more doses. You really talk some complete tosh.

I have asked about 9 times now, I will try again, what do you feel about the US banning all exports and storing 100 million doses at least and India ( who were a large part of the development of the Oxford vaccine ) are insisting most of the vaccine produced stays in India. This is what you are accusing the EU of yet they are only threatening to do  it, fuelled by people like you goading them. Last nights comments by Johnson have just fuelled it more.

Totally agree @Well b back.  The US approach is shocking, their rollout program is going pretty well now and they have plenty of vaccine so to be sitting on 100m doses they're not using is absolutely appalling.  Biden doesn't seem to be any improvement on Trump in some ways,  which is utterly shocking !

 

|Disappointing about India too.

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,786]

2 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

OK but the story says these were from a manufacturing plant in the Netherlands which has not yet been approved for manufacture for the EU so they were going to be sent to the UK, but have been held up by the export ban from Italy.

 

So basically 29m doses are sat there rather than being used, thanks to the EU's export ban. 

 

Maybe the EU should get a move on to approve the Dutch plant for manufacture for the EU in which case AZ could have used them in the EU, rather than whingeing about everything ?

 

If ever there was a case for the saying "fix the problem, not the blame" this is it.  It's painfully obvious the EU has completely mismanaged the entire vaccine program and time for them to move on and try to sort out the problems rather than trying to deflect attention by flailing around.

A bit ahead of yourself there. The question is if they come from Halix as to why the EU hasn't approved it given the shortage on their contract. Has AZ even asked them too or perhaps it wasn't ready? Either way more questions.

Sounds to me like the sorry saga continues and the truth will out.

[Yellow Fever 3,786]

48 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Johnson’s comments last night ( although again he was probably talking out of his a@@@ ) suggest we used greed and capitalism, when it was always understood we got them at cost, then when explained what he had said quickly tried to cover up. 
We will see later today but those comments could see the EU joining the US, China, Russia and to a lesser degree India.

Like I say he probably didn’t mean what he said, but unfortunately he said it and his position you cannot say things like that. He must be well respected as well as ‘ a number of his mps ‘ went straight to the press.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[Van wink 2,994]

31 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Anyone see Ferguson this morning?

He is not convinced there will be another wave. He thinks Europe are just on catch up with the variants and are where we were new year.

Didn’t hear that KG but it had crossed my mind, the main problem they seem to have is with the increased infectivity of the Kent variant, which of course caused our recent problems. Having said that what we don’t know is the extent that new variants are present in Europe, various sources suggest 20-40% South African variant but in the genome sequencing isn’t done there to such a high level as it is here.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Got in touch with my family yesterday. German doctors are not allowed to vaccinate anyone outside officially sanctioned vaccination centers, no community halls, churches and or pharmacies. And everything is done in 4 copies...what else would one expect...:)

Sloth trying to run a race