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29 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Sorry but this makes no sense to me.  Buendia has all those skills, I agree.  We don't have anyone else who can come in and do what Buendia has been doing.  So we need to look at the players who are available and see who can best come in.  By definition they won't be able to offer everything you'd get from Buendia on the pitch.  But we've looked short on ideas/quality creatively without Buendia so we need someone who can offer that, especially against Wednesday who will be planning to keep it tight defensively when they come to CR.

 

Cantwell for me looked short on confidence yesterday, so didn't offer much in terms of going past people or creating space to receive the ball or indeed to go out wide to stretch the play when needed.  Hernandez already has licence to roam, but struggled to contribute much yesterday, so I don't think it makes sense to talk about him taking on the Buendia free role - over our 8 game winning run, both of them were moving freely around the pitch which was a crucial part of our success.  Without other players posing an attacking threat, it was easier for Wigan to close down Hernandez.

 

So for me Vrancic makes sense as the replacement for Buendia.  He's not being asked to play as a traditional winger, he has licence to roam as a right midfielder.  He's got the ability to play the creative pass, score goals himself, and create space to receive the ball.  He's looked like a quality player when he's come on late in the last couple of games.

 

It would be madness to bring in Passlack or Heise now, neither of whom has played much or at all this season, when we have a quality creative player like Vrancic available.

Cantwell is the most like Buendia in the squad who is available. Basically a 10 playing in a wide position. 

I feel playing Vrancic you’d see him drifting too deep as that is where he wants to get the ball. 

Cantwell didn’t play badly against Reading and given that Sheffield Wednesday are unlikely to press as aggressively, which I think caused Cantwell issues - firstly as he had to deal with the  physicality but also he was receiving lower quality passes in poorer positions (due to those playing him the passes having less time and more long range passes). 

I can understand the desire to get players like Vrancic and Leitner back into the team. But I’m not sure squeezing them into a he team in positions that doesn’t suit them is the best idea. McLean might work in the wide position, he is more attack minded than Vrancic/Leitner. It’s a bit of an unknown as I’ve never seen him play there before.  

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-----------------Krul

Aarons Zimbo Godfrey Lewis

---------Vrancic Trybull

McLean Stiepermann Hernandez

-------------------Pukki

We really don't want to unsettle the team too much but we need a Vrancic or Leitner in there to control possession better, games have been a little too end to end for my liking recently. McLean needs to play to take set pieces and offer a threat from range with how deep Wednesday will play so for me the only choice is whether we play Vrancic or Leitner.

 

Sheffield wednesday are gonna defend deep, shut down all the space for our players to work in and will try to hit it high and long for Nihihu to win set pieces. For me we need Vrancic's long range of passing to open them up on the break and his height to help with set pieces so that's why i'd pick him over Leitner.

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I think it's either Leitner or Vrancic, can't see them both coming in. Vrancic has more end product this season, so I'd bring him in alongside Trybull, and then shift Kenny further forward. There tends to be a fair amount of interchangeability between those three AMs, and there's no reason why Marco can't drift out left and Kenny come into the middle. We're pretty good at identifying weaknesses in opposing defences and adapting on the fly without needing to make substitutions.

I think Kenny has been way underrated personally, he was a huge factor in those eight consecutive wins – he's a different player to Mo or Mario, but I think he's been really good and it'd be very tough on him to drop him.

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If Vrancic and/or Leitner don't  play and we fail to win again, then I think Farke will lose a bit of goodwill with the fans. The stakes are too high to fanny around and our strongest team have to be on the pitch.

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Krul

Aaron's, Zimmerman, Godfrey, Lewis

Hernandez, Mo, trybull, mario, marco

Pukki

 

Tybull sitting deeper allowing mo and mario to pick the ball up dictate and deliver killer balls to Hernandez and Marco who can link up with Pukki as they float in from the flanks to the number 10 spot.

 

Personally I think McLean is third choice as a creative central midfielder with mario and mo ahead of him. We need good final ball delivery and real incisiveness in the team. He has put a few balls through for assists or his own goal tally, but he does not dangerous with the ball as much as the other 2 have.

 

Yes we have won with a different team and McLean has added a slightly different style but in that 8 game run we looked dangerous down the flanks and very little impetus through the middle.

 

Here we have players who can offer threat down the middle and down the flanks.

 

I could see McLean out wide left and vrancic in midfield alongside Trybull, with Cantwell stepping out. But I do think our best players need to be on the field right now.

 

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To go with the same team for third game in a row puts promotion in doubt, a win against Wednesday is necessary. 3 wins is the championship, 2 wins means promotion but play similarly to the previous games any wins are doubtful. And relying on Emi to win the last 3 games for us is too dangerous to consider.

We have been ineffective in last 2 games, lacking creativity and laboured passing until the experienced midfielders have b3en introduced. Vrancic in for C antwell, Moritz for MacLean. SheffWed will not be unduly keen on beating us if it opens door for United but we cannot rely on this.  We need to go for a win from the off rather than save playing for last 10 minutes.

By sticking with this formation and failing to get promotion Farke will be blamed hope someone can talk some sense into him. Leitner and Vrancic should be seething at Farkes intransigence I know many on here agree.

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I have a feeling that Farke will keep the same team and I wouldn't be completely surprised if Buendia has to settle for a place on the bench when his ban is over.

I don't necessarily agree with the above, however Farke does seem to have a belief that he shouldn't change the team unless absolutely necessary (i.e. injury, suspension or losing streak). He mentioned some kind of stat earlier in the season highlighting how teams higher up the table make the least changes to the starting eleven. It also sends a message to the players: when you get your chance, you will be given time and trust to settle into your role. 

I don't think he'll want to undermine his own system.

Personally, when Buendia got banned, I said I would've preferred Vrancic to replace him because he offers goals and assists. Whilst I understand Cantwell is probably more suited on the wing, he only has one goal and two assists this season. 

 

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This debate reminds me a bit of when Hughton would put Wes Hoolahan out on the left side of midfield because Hughton felt it would weaken us defensively to put Wes more centrally.  That was frustrating because Wes was stuck out on the left for much of the game and couldn't influence it  that much.  Also, on occasion Wes would go wondering more centrally and that would leave us exposed on the flank.  But the key point was that Wes could play that position and make a decent contribution, it was just that his impact was greatly reduced.

 

Here if we put Vrancic or McLean on the right flank, they would have a licence to roam and Max can cover the flank defensively anyway, so those problems are largely overcome. 

 

I'm not convinced Vrancic would necessarily drop deeper to get the ball - he played in an advanced midfield role very successfully.  And I think that would be made up for by his greater creative impact than Cantwell at the moment.

 

If we stick with the same starting lineup I'd be incredibly frustrated, especially if we end up having to change the lineup/formation at around 75 minutes yet again !!

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4 hours ago, Wilson said:

I think DF will start the same team. He will want to slot Buendía back when his suspension is over. He won’t want to change the system that has served us so well. 

This - no doubt at all.

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7 minutes ago, pete said:

To go with the same team for third game in a row puts promotion in doubt, a win against Wednesday is necessary. 3 wins is the championship, 2 wins means promotion but play similarly to the previous games any wins are doubtful. And relying on Emi to win the last 3 games for us is too dangerous to consider.

We have been ineffective in last 2 games, lacking creativity and laboured passing until the experienced midfielders have b3en introduced. Vrancic in for C antwell, Moritz for MacLean. SheffWed will not be unduly keen on beating us if it opens door for United but we cannot rely on this.  We need to go for a win from the off rather than save playing for last 10 minutes.

By sticking with this formation and failing to get promotion Farke will be blamed hope someone can talk some sense into him. Leitner and Vrancic should be seething at Farkes intransigence I know many on here agree.

But that's what Farke and his coaching team is paid for - to make these calls. He's got most of them right so far. We might not agree, but he's the only one with the whole picture.

And anyone suggesting that Wednesday will roll over because they don't want to help United is delusional. They are only 6 points off the playoffs with 4 to play. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Really can’t see how Vrancic can play on the wing. He just doesn’t have the skill set for that. Even McLean out there is a stretch for me. 

Sheffield Wednesday will play more like Reading did than Wigan. Bruce doesn’t really do high pressing and intensity and they’ll sit deep and look to hit Norwich on the counter. That means Norwich will need players in attacking positions that can beat a man on the turn - something that Vrancic doesn’t really do well. Could potentially put Stiepermann out on the wing and Vrancic or McLean central or keep Cantwell on the wing. McLean/Vrancic/Leitner would all probably work alongside Trybull. McLean could potentially need a rest after being involved with Scotland during the international break (including a trip to Kazakhstan and back). 

Don’t think there is massive need to do a big overhaul. 

Probably the most balanced post Ive seen on this issue. I'd leave the front four and for me if Leitner or Vrancic come in it must be for McLean. If Trybull needs a rest it must be Tetty. The squad has been set out thus all season and we are averaging over 2 points a game with 4 left to play. Hardly the time to change the system just to fit in people's favourites.

Bravo Beth👍

Edited by nutty nigel
I can't count

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Changes needed. I'm surprised at how much we have missed EMI. He has got that little bit of magic that no one else in the team can match. I'm not panicking as we so easily could have won the last home game.

 

no Cantwell on Friday and possibly no McLean that would be my choice. 

 

Can someone tell Farke that sometimes at substitute at half time can be a good idea. 

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20 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Probably the most balanced post Ive seen on this issue. I'd leave the front five and for me if Leitner or Vrancic come in it must be for McLean. If Trybull needs a rest it must be Tetty. The squad has been set out thus all season and we are averaging over 2 points a game with 4 left to play. Hardly the time to change the system just to fit in people's favourites.

Bravo Beth👍

Yep, same again. This season has been built on repetition, patterns & understanding with the result we are top.

Those calling for change clearly don't understand that and to through that away on the basis of two draws in and unbeaten run of 10 is madness.

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Just now, BigFish said:

Yep, same again. This season has been built on repetition, patterns & understanding with the result we are top.

Those calling for change clearly don't understand that and to throw that away on the basis of two draws in and unbeaten run of 10 is madness.

 

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3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Yep, same again. This season has been built on repetition, patterns & understanding with the result we are top.

Those calling for change clearly don't understand that and to through that away on the basis of two draws in and unbeaten run of 10 is madness.

It’s not just two draws though, it’s two draws with an ineffectual player in Cantwell taking a place in the side while we still have two of our best midfielders sitting on the bench.

The definition of madness is said to be repeating the same thing expecting different results. We’re giving Sheff Wed the chance to look at the way either Reading or Wigan played and say ‘pick a system, both caused us problems’. 

With such an obvious weakness (Cantwell simply hasn’t had any influence in the last 2 games) surely its worth trying something new to inject some change? Cantwell isn’t a winger himself (like Buendia) and has failed to adjust in two games, there are two more gifted, creative players, who would provide more. Indeed they both provided more in the 15mins or so they were on the pitch yesterday.

Talking of Farkes philosophy, surely when given a chance, as Leitner and Vrancic were, if a positive impact is made and game changed, they should argue they fully deserve their place in the team for the next game.

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Why is then that Farke has changed the system late in the 2nd half in the last 2 games, which has then seen us get back to being ahead and drawing those games, but he can’t change the system from the start on Friday? It makes no sense to me.

 

also if we need a wide player who can beat a man, unfortunately at the moment that’s not Cantwell. He’s got great potential IMO but just didn’t contribute much on Sunday.

 

i could see McLean playing the wide role or Stiepermann, with Vrancic or Leitner in the centre, or Vrancic out wide with Leitner also  in for McLean. Which is actually keeping the same system. 

 

But we need more players who’ll create problems for a packed defence than we’ve had the last two games.

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4 hours ago, Hairy Canary said:

I'd go for 

 

Krul

Aarons  Zimmerman  Godfrey  Lewis

Trybull  Vrancic

Hernandez  Stiepermann  McLean

Pukki

 

Think that has more balance than having Vrancic wide personally although the way we play with Buendia drifting inside I don't think it would be as big a stretch as some suggest. In both the last two games I've felt that McLean has had more impact when he was pushed further forward after the substitutions were made.

Last point. Might be wrong but I feel there is a touch of nervousness on the pitch - there certainly is in the stands - and Mo and Mario both bring a sense of calmness and control to our play which I feel we would benefit from at the moment. 

👍

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The facts are clear for all to see over the last two games:-

1) Farke’s starting lineup for both games have been a goal down at halftime.

2) Farke has had to make substitutions to secure a point.

3) A point each from the last two games has been a disappointing return.

4) Buendia and Pukki are the two players in the squad that are irreplaceable.

It would be total madness to make the same mistake over and over again. So to start with the same lineup for a third time,  at such a key point of the season, just to ‘show faith in a youngster’ or not to replace players ‘showing fatigue’, would be taking loyalty a step too far.

It could be argued that Farke is putting far too much pressure on the likes of Vrancic, Leitner and Rhodes to come on with fifteen minutes to play and secure points.

The team needs to get back to winning ways without finding themselves having to fight back from a goal down.

Changes to the starting lineup required.

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19 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

It’s not just two draws though, it’s two draws with an ineffectual player in Cantwell taking a place in the side while we still have two of our best midfielders sitting on the bench.

The definition of madness is said to be repeating the same thing expecting different results. We’re giving Sheff Wed the chance to look at the way either Reading or Wigan played and say ‘pick a system, both caused us problems’. 

With such an obvious weakness (Cantwell simply hasn’t had any influence in the last 2 games) surely its worth trying something new to inject some change? Cantwell isn’t a winger himself (like Buendia) and has failed to adjust in two games, there are two more gifted, creative players, who would provide more. Indeed they both provided more in the 15mins or so they were on the pitch yesterday.

Talking of Farkes philosophy, surely when given a chance, as Leitner and Vrancic were, if a positive impact is made and game changed, they should argue they fully deserve their place in the team for the next game.

The problem is, as Farke has said himself, Vrancic and Leitner aren’t suited to the position that needs covering. So you have the option of switching around 2 or 3 players and disrupting a system that has worked (and I’d also note it worked earlier in the season when Cantwell came in for Hernandez on the other wing), or sticking with Cantwell and hoping the team execute a system that has worked more effectively in the past. 

As has been said many times, Norwich dominated Reading and 9 times out of 10 they win that game. Norwich also created numerous good opportunities against Wigan. If Pukki scores the early shot he has in the 6 yard box I expect the game pans out in a very different manner. 

The only change I’d make is replace Maclean with Vrancic. 

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3 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

The problem is, as Farke has said himself, Vrancic and Leitner aren’t suited to the position that needs covering. So you have the option of switching around 2 or 3 players and disrupting a system that has worked (and I’d also note it worked earlier in the season when Cantwell came in for Hernandez on the other wing), or sticking with Cantwell and hoping the team execute a system that has worked more effectively in the past. 

As has been said many times, Norwich dominated Reading and 9 times out of 10 they win that game. Norwich also created numerous good opportunities against Wigan. If Pukki scores the early shot he has in the 6 yard box I expect the game pans out in a very different manner. 

The only change I’d make is replace Maclean with Vrancic. 

@Bethnal Yellow and Green nails it

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I'm thinking Wednesday  or Stoke match there have to be changes, too many matches close together. Maybe that is why they could not play their normal short passing game against Wigan, too tired !

 

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24 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

The problem is, as Farke has said himself, Vrancic and Leitner aren’t suited to the position that needs covering. So you have the option of switching around 2 or 3 players and disrupting a system that has worked (and I’d also note it worked earlier in the season when Cantwell came in for Hernandez on the other wing), or sticking with Cantwell and hoping the team execute a system that has worked more effectively in the past. 

As has been said many times, Norwich dominated Reading and 9 times out of 10 they win that game. Norwich also created numerous good opportunities against Wigan. If Pukki scores the early shot he has in the 6 yard box I expect the game pans out in a very different manner. 

The only change I’d make is replace Maclean with Vrancic. 

I agree we created chances and should have beaten Reading but the difference in both games was a distinct lack of creativity, there were fewer clear cut chances than usual (we missed Emi more than I was expecting) and the best replacement for that is the inclusion of Leitner, Vrancic or both.

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31 minutes ago, unique said:

The facts are clear for all to see over the last two games:-

1) Farke’s starting lineup for both games have been a goal down at halftime.

2) Farke has had to make substitutions to secure a point.

3) A point each from the last two games has been a disappointing return.

4) Buendia and Pukki are the two players in the squad that are irreplaceable.

It would be total madness to make the same mistake over and over again. So to start with the same lineup for a third time,  at such a key point of the season, just to ‘show faith in a youngster’ or not to replace players ‘showing fatigue’, would be taking loyalty a step too far.

It could be argued that Farke is putting far too much pressure on the likes of Vrancic, Leitner and Rhodes to come on with fifteen minutes to play and secure points.

The team needs to get back to winning ways without finding themselves having to fight back from a goal down.

Changes to the starting lineup required.

I think this is spot on.  It was asking a lot for them to make it work in a changed system with just 15 minutes which were hugely disrupted by Wigan injuries/time wasting. 

 

People keep going on about changing the system being a problem, but how come it was ok to do that late in the last 2 games, but not to prepare the players in training and go with a - slightly - different system or personnel from the start of a game ?

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31 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

The problem is, as Farke has said himself, Vrancic and Leitner aren’t suited to the position that needs covering. So you have the option of switching around 2 or 3 players and disrupting a system that has worked (and I’d also note it worked earlier in the season when Cantwell came in for Hernandez on the other wing), or sticking with Cantwell and hoping the team execute a system that has worked more effectively in the past. 

As has been said many times, Norwich dominated Reading and 9 times out of 10 they win that game. Norwich also created numerous good opportunities against Wigan. If Pukki scores the early shot he has in the 6 yard box I expect the game pans out in a very different manner. 

The only change I’d make is replace Maclean with Vrancic. 

Cantwell replacing Hernandez is very different to replacing Buendia.

What Buendia can produce is more similar to the creativity of Vrancic or McLean than Cantwell. When Cantwell played earlier in the season it was hard work with some good work on the ball but aside from one (albeit brilliant) assist there was simply not as much creativity as supplied from Buendia, Vrancic or McLean. It also felt like Cantwell dropping out of the side was an occasion he was simply dropped for Hernandez rather than the usual Farke philosophy of having to wait for injuries for your chance

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Posted (edited)

Well changing one player for one  ...in cantwell for buendia hasnt worked in two games...if we have to shuffle a couple of players around to make it work better then so be it....surely we're not that inflexible??

   I'll make the point again that if we go behind a third game in a row and are still chasing it on 70 mins plus, we won't have the option of Jordan Rhodes off the bench to try to salvage something.

We have to get this right on Friday, we're so close.....if we don't get automatic promotion ,please let our own team selection not be the reason.

Edited by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary
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I think Farke has more then earned the right to be trusted to do what is right for the next few games to see us over the line and into next season in what will be an incredibly hard season. Personally I think some of the players are looking tired and it needs freshening up, but that call is down to Farke and the coaching staff, if they believe the right approach to beat Sheffield Wednesday is the same starting eleven then that is the right call. What he and they have achieved this season they have more than earned the right to not be questioned on it. And that applies in the PL next season no matter how hard it gets and no matter what our league position is. 

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Farke has the opportunity to change now, following imperfect results and a somewhat subdued and - at times - inefficient performance against Wigan. Reading was simply an outlier and on another day Norwich win 3-0 comfortably. 

To emphasise the ‘collective’ purpose and the ‘sum is greater than its parts’ mantra, it is reasonable to assume that either no change occur to reward the effort shown, or - for once - a few changes may be made at once to ensure no single individual is (or feels) targeted. To this effect a ‘refreshment’, based publicly on fitness, ‘load’ and the ‘Englische woche’ of multiple Easter games. To this effect I think both Leitner and Vrancic may now appear, with Maclean moving into a more attacking midfield where he is quite effective in terms of assist-goal end product (despite perhaps not being as smooth as some others). 

The only issue here is the ‘out ball’ that Stieperman provides and which is a dimension that no others have, bar Rhodes, though we have a tendency to go a little over-aerial when he is introduced. 

Krul

Aarons Zimmerman Godfrey Lewis

Leitner Trybull

Hernandez Vrancic Maclean

Pukki

If Stieperman plays, then I suppose that he - at least nominally - drifts to the left side instead of Maclean, though - unfortunately - it may otherwise be that Leitner and Vrancic cannot get in the side together a bit á la Gerrard-Lampard.

A solution might be more of a 4-3-3:

Krul

Aarons Zimmerman Godfrey Lewis

Trybull (full back even higher, Trybull sitting even deeper)

Leitner Vrancic

Hernandez Pukki Stieperman (Buendia)

That looks quite a dangerous side. Good defensive structure and possession outlets too...

Parma

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