Same old 'loan spin' from Roeder

[a1canary 0]

Every time we get a loan in he revels in telling us how they aren''t for sale, how we could never afford them and how great they are. He always seems to gloss over the fact that, like all loans, it has to be repaid. The player goes back, we''re out of pocket and we''re left with nothing. No asset, no return. He is slowly but surely bankrupting us.

I''ve an analogy for you Glenn - if you loan a Ferrari, obviously it''s a nicer car than you could ever afford to buy. Unfortunately though, it''s not yours, and just because it''s a loan, this doesn''t mean it''s cheap. In fact, on an onward going month to month basis (assuming you are forever loaning rather than buying), it''s almost certainly more expensive than actually buying the car, where you own an asset that can be sold if need be. Young footballers, unlike cars, often appreciate in value also. See Ashton or Earnshaw (ok, no appreciation there but we got all our money back). Trouble is Glenn, if you go on and on loaning these fancy players, just like fancy cars, they break down, and end up costing you more and more until they go back or are sent back crocked. The result then is that instead of having a nice reliable Ford Focus that you might have been able to afford in the first place, you have nothing. Zip. No player, no asset and no money which has all been spent on loan fees and extra loans to cover the ones that are broken and have gone back to the manufacturer. Am i mixing my analogies here!? No matter, the point is clear enough i think. By the time you finally leave us Glenn, probably never to get another job above league 1 again, you will have crippled us.

Thanks for that! Of course the board could put a stop to it but they can''t because as explained, we now don''t have enough money for the Focus because we''ve already spent too much on Ferrari loans, and so have no option but to continue loaning or start putting children on the pitch. I really can''t see a happy ending to any of this until we''ve been down a division and completely restructured the club. If it can survive that. Never have i been so pessimistic about the short and medium term future of our club. :(

Can anyone cheer me up?

[city-till-i-die 7]

nail head

[city4eva 224]

[quote user="a1canary"]

Every time we get a loan in he revels in telling us how they aren''t for sale, how we could never afford them and how great they are. He always seems to gloss over the fact that, like all loans, it has to be repaid. The player goes back, we''re out of pocket and we''re left with nothing. No asset, no return. He is slowly but surely bankrupting us.

I''ve an analogy for you Glenn - if you loan a Ferrari, obviously it''s a nicer car than you could ever afford to buy. Unfortunately though, it''s not yours, and just because it''s a loan, this doesn''t mean it''s cheap. In fact, on an onward going month to month basis (assuming you are forever loaning rather than buying), it''s almost certainly more expensive than actually buying the car, where you own an asset that can be sold if need be. Young footballers, unlike cars, often appreciate in value also. See Ashton or Earnshaw (ok, no appreciation there but we got all our money back). Trouble is Glenn, if you go on and on loaning these fancy players, just like fancy cars, they break down, and end up costing you more and more until they go back or are sent back crocked. The result then is that instead of having a nice reliable Ford Focus that you might have been able to afford in the first place, you have nothing. Zip. No player, no asset and no money which has all been spent on loan fees and extra loans to cover the ones that are broken and have gone back to the manufacturer. Am i mixing my analogies here!? No matter, the point is clear enough i think. By the time you finally leave us Glenn, probably never to get another job above league 1 again, you will have crippled us.

Thanks for that! Of course the board could put a stop to it but they can''t because as explained, we now don''t have enough money for the Focus because we''ve already spent too much on Ferrari loans, and so have no option but to continue loaning or start putting children on the pitch. I really can''t see a happy ending to any of this until we''ve been down a division and completely restructured the club. If it can survive that. Never have i been so pessimistic about the short and medium term future of our club. :(

Can anyone cheer me up?

[/quote]

 

Cant cheer you up, your analagy makes perfect sense to me

[St.John Cooper 0]

I can not cheer you up!

 

what is just is bad is that he talks about cover for the defence......he seems to have forgotten about a striker!

God help us and save us from the drop

Now can any one cheer me up?

This link just about did, brought the day flooding back.....just memories now...will we ever be there again? maybe in the 1st divison play off final?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuRHVXiu1rg

Enjoy

OTBC

St.John

OTBC

[Mr Brownstone 0]

Can''t say i''ve noticed too many Ferrari''s! I did see a clapped out Citreon CV that was always breaking down though. Unreliable French engineering.

[ron obvious 1,526]

I''ve got another analogy for you:"buying a house is always cheaper than renting".Discuss.

[Mello Yello 2,328]

[quote user="ron obvious"]
I''ve got another analogy for you:

"buying a house is always cheaper than renting".

Discuss.
[/quote]

Squatting''s cheaper....

[missing in action? 0]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="ron obvious"]I''ve got another analogy for you:"buying a house is always cheaper than renting".Discuss.[/quote]

Squatting''s cheaper....

[/quote]but only if i havent got 20p piece, and i really need to go...

[Mr Brownstone 0]

Try telling that to anyone who had a mortgage when interest rates were into double figures in the late eighties (or was it early nineties?) Ron.

[ron obvious 1,526]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]Try telling that to anyone who had a mortgage when interest rates were into double figures in the late eighties (or was it early nineties?) Ron.[/quote]I did. Put a real crimp in my millenium, I can tell you.That''s the point I was trying to make.

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]

Every time we get a loan in he revels in telling us how they aren''t for sale, how we could never afford them and how great they are. He always seems to gloss over the fact that, like all loans, it has to be repaid. The player goes back, we''re out of pocket and we''re left with nothing. No asset, no return. He is slowly but surely bankrupting us.

I''ve an analogy for you Glenn - if you loan a Ferrari, obviously it''s a nicer car than you could ever afford to buy. Unfortunately though, it''s not yours, and just because it''s a loan, this doesn''t mean it''s cheap. In fact, on an onward going month to month basis (assuming you are forever loaning rather than buying), it''s almost certainly more expensive than actually buying the car, where you own an asset that can be sold if need be. Young footballers, unlike cars, often appreciate in value also. See Ashton or Earnshaw (ok, no appreciation there but we got all our money back). Trouble is Glenn, if you go on and on loaning these fancy players, just like fancy cars, they break down, and end up costing you more and more until they go back or are sent back crocked. The result then is that instead of having a nice reliable Ford Focus that you might have been able to afford in the first place, you have nothing. Zip. No player, no asset and no money which has all been spent on loan fees and extra loans to cover the ones that are broken and have gone back to the manufacturer. Am i mixing my analogies here!? No matter, the point is clear enough i think. By the time you finally leave us Glenn, probably never to get another job above league 1 again, you will have crippled us.

Thanks for that! Of course the board could put a stop to it but they can''t because as explained, we now don''t have enough money for the Focus because we''ve already spent too much on Ferrari loans, and so have no option but to continue loaning or start putting children on the pitch. I really can''t see a happy ending to any of this until we''ve been down a division and completely restructured the club. If it can survive that. Never have i been so pessimistic about the short and medium term future of our club. :(

Can anyone cheer me up?

[/quote]

Yawn

[Shaun Tilly Lace 0]

Spot on, a1 canary. Rat-faced boy is a complete waste of space who doesn''t have a clue what he''s doing.

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="a1canary"]

Every time we get a loan in he revels in telling us how they aren''t for sale, how we could never afford them and how great they are. He always seems to gloss over the fact that, like all loans, it has to be repaid. The player goes back, we''re out of pocket and we''re left with nothing. No asset, no return. He is slowly but surely bankrupting us.

I''ve an analogy for you Glenn - if you loan a Ferrari, obviously it''s a nicer car than you could ever afford to buy. Unfortunately though, it''s not yours, and just because it''s a loan, this doesn''t mean it''s cheap. In fact, on an onward going month to month basis (assuming you are forever loaning rather than buying), it''s almost certainly more expensive than actually buying the car, where you own an asset that can be sold if need be. Young footballers, unlike cars, often appreciate in value also. See Ashton or Earnshaw (ok, no appreciation there but we got all our money back). Trouble is Glenn, if you go on and on loaning these fancy players, just like fancy cars, they break down, and end up costing you more and more until they go back or are sent back crocked. The result then is that instead of having a nice reliable Ford Focus that you might have been able to afford in the first place, you have nothing. Zip. No player, no asset and no money which has all been spent on loan fees and extra loans to cover the ones that are broken and have gone back to the manufacturer. Am i mixing my analogies here!? No matter, the point is clear enough i think. By the time you finally leave us Glenn, probably never to get another job above league 1 again, you will have crippled us.

Thanks for that! Of course the board could put a stop to it but they can''t because as explained, we now don''t have enough money for the Focus because we''ve already spent too much on Ferrari loans, and so have no option but to continue loaning or start putting children on the pitch. I really can''t see a happy ending to any of this until we''ve been down a division and completely restructured the club. If it can survive that. Never have i been so pessimistic about the short and medium term future of our club. :(

Can anyone cheer me up?

[/quote]

Yawn[/quote]Sorry ellis, is there something wrong in what i''ve written? Have i misunderstood or misrepresented the situation our club is in? Because if i have i''d love to hear where i''m going wrong and how things aren''t as bad as they appear to be. Or maybe, as your response suggests, you don''t really care. But i fail to see why any city fan wouldn''t care about our position right now.

[PhatCanary 0]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="a1canary"]

Every time we get a loan in he revels in telling us how they aren''t for sale, how we could never afford them and how great they are. He always seems to gloss over the fact that, like all loans, it has to be repaid. The player goes back, we''re out of pocket and we''re left with nothing. No asset, no return. He is slowly but surely bankrupting us.

I''ve an analogy for you Glenn - if you loan a Ferrari, obviously it''s a nicer car than you could ever afford to buy. Unfortunately though, it''s not yours, and just because it''s a loan, this doesn''t mean it''s cheap. In fact, on an onward going month to month basis (assuming you are forever loaning rather than buying), it''s almost certainly more expensive than actually buying the car, where you own an asset that can be sold if need be. Young footballers, unlike cars, often appreciate in value also. See Ashton or Earnshaw (ok, no appreciation there but we got all our money back). Trouble is Glenn, if you go on and on loaning these fancy players, just like fancy cars, they break down, and end up costing you more and more until they go back or are sent back crocked. The result then is that instead of having a nice reliable Ford Focus that you might have been able to afford in the first place, you have nothing. Zip. No player, no asset and no money which has all been spent on loan fees and extra loans to cover the ones that are broken and have gone back to the manufacturer. Am i mixing my analogies here!? No matter, the point is clear enough i think. By the time you finally leave us Glenn, probably never to get another job above league 1 again, you will have crippled us.

Thanks for that! Of course the board could put a stop to it but they can''t because as explained, we now don''t have enough money for the Focus because we''ve already spent too much on Ferrari loans, and so have no option but to continue loaning or start putting children on the pitch. I really can''t see a happy ending to any of this until we''ve been down a division and completely restructured the club. If it can survive that. Never have i been so pessimistic about the short and medium term future of our club. :(

Can anyone cheer me up?

[/quote]


Yawn
[/quote]

Very grown up ellis, good effort with that argument,somebody posts a valid and good point and you have no answer other than "Yawn"

[Robert Ketts Yellow Army 20]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="ron obvious"]
I''ve got another analogy for you:

"buying a house is always cheaper than renting".

Discuss.
[/quote]

Squatting''s cheaper....

[/quote]

 

Renting is dead money

[Badger 0]

[quote user="beejinz"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="ron obvious"]I''ve got another analogy for you:"buying a house is always cheaper than renting".Discuss.[/quote]

Squatting''s cheaper....

[/quote]

 

Renting is dead money

[/quote]You end up with nothing - true, but if you took a mortgage out last year, you have negative equity + you have to keep on paying becuase nobody is prepared to pay you what you paid. Even worse with footballers though because at the end of their contracts they leave for nothing anywayIn the current housing market, renting isn''t a bad idea. In the current financial climate loaning rather than buying may well prove to be handy too!

[Yellowbeagle 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]

Every time we get a loan in he revels in telling us how they aren''t for sale, how we could never afford them and how great they are. He always seems to gloss over the fact that, like all loans, it has to be repaid. The player goes back, we''re out of pocket and we''re left with nothing. No asset, no return. He is slowly but surely bankrupting us.

I''ve an analogy for you Glenn - if you loan a Ferrari, obviously it''s a nicer car than you could ever afford to buy. Unfortunately though, it''s not yours, and just because it''s a loan, this doesn''t mean it''s cheap. In fact, on an onward going month to month basis (assuming you are forever loaning rather than buying), it''s almost certainly more expensive than actually buying the car, where you own an asset that can be sold if need be. Young footballers, unlike cars, often appreciate in value also. See Ashton or Earnshaw (ok, no appreciation there but we got all our money back). Trouble is Glenn, if you go on and on loaning these fancy players, just like fancy cars, they break down, and end up costing you more and more until they go back or are sent back crocked. The result then is that instead of having a nice reliable Ford Focus that you might have been able to afford in the first place, you have nothing. Zip. No player, no asset and no money which has all been spent on loan fees and extra loans to cover the ones that are broken and have gone back to the manufacturer. Am i mixing my analogies here!? No matter, the point is clear enough i think. By the time you finally leave us Glenn, probably never to get another job above league 1 again, you will have crippled us.

Thanks for that! Of course the board could put a stop to it but they can''t because as explained, we now don''t have enough money for the Focus because we''ve already spent too much on Ferrari loans, and so have no option but to continue loaning or start putting children on the pitch. I really can''t see a happy ending to any of this until we''ve been down a division and completely restructured the club. If it can survive that. Never have i been so pessimistic about the short and medium term future of our club. :(

Can anyone cheer me up?

[/quote]

Agree with what you saying totally,  trouble is were now actually loaning in more Ford Fiesta''s than Faerrari''s we once used to get in on loan.

[Matt Morriss 69]

I hate Roeder and want him out but what is the alternative? Id rather have a Grounds or a Martin Taylor in on loan alongside Doc than chance it on an unproven defender from the lower leagues.The simple matter is that we just dont have the money to buy anyone. The issue for me is the 2 month thing, makes no sense. Having a Grounds here for the rest of the season id be very happy with. Grounds was part of a defence that kept a clean sheet v Sheff Utd and he has looked good when ive seen him, so am pleased with him and the Doc at the back.Finally i think we''ll have a settled defence for 2 months at least.But again 2 months isnt good enough.

[Hog 0]

We had two options as far as I can see:

 

Spend our limited budget on young untried players from Lower Leagues and abroad, probably get relegated but.....1.Build a proper squad which was our own and could be properly supported by us. 2. Build a team spirit which one cannot get from a constant revolving loan in policy. 3. Develop some of those raw players into serious assets.

 

or

 

Buy a couple of players and then contantly loan loan loan to paper over the cracks, hope to survive so that we can keep the few players we do actually own, and then repeat process for next two years.

 

Both probably lead to relegation but I know which I would prefer...

[BGG&YPOS 0]

He could buy a good lower league player, but if he turns out to be crap everyone will be blaming GR for getting in sh*te, he is in a no win situation.

[singing canary 0]

i used to sell cars..up untill last month ...i would rather have a astra, than a focus , they do hold thier money better!!!!

[singing canary 0]

if roeder knew what he was doing , he wouldnt bring in crap.

take burnley for prime example .. the manager has a limited budget but , doing well on it.

[Hairy Canary 714]

[quote user="BGG YPOS"]He could buy a good lower league player, but if he turns out to be crap everyone will be blaming GR for getting in sh*te, he is in a no win situation.[/quote]

Its called management! Good managers buy good young players with potential more often than bad ones and to be fair to Roeder some of the ones he had bought fall into that category. However it works out it is the only long term answer.

[Budapest Canary 152]

I think it''s not as simple as that.

Who would you rather have: Brellier as a permanent or Grounds on loan?  Who has cost us more, and which of the two players were better value for money: Chedwick (fee: 200,000 plus wages, left for free, played 17 games in 2 1/2 years, scoring one, or Lita (16 games in 3 months, scoring 7)? 

What Roeder is doing, makes sense to me. He has brought in as many quality players as he could on a shoestring budget, and rather than topping up the body count with players of the Brellier mould he tries to patch up the gaps with quality loans. (Evans, Lita, Taylor were top moves, we kept Matty Patty, and the most of the rest of the loans were doing ok). This seems to be the best, or at lest the safest way to building a squad and avoiding relegation on a low budget. Of course, on the longer run, I expect the number of permanent players to increase at the expense of the loaners, but it seems to make sense on the short term at least.

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="singing canary"]

if roeder knew what he was doing , he wouldnt bring in crap.

take burnley for prime example .. the manager has a limited budget but , doing well on it.

[/quote]

The word "Burnley" should be banned on this Forum. Yes they are doing well but for how long? They have about ten directors each owning a piece of the club, a £20m ground redvelopment scheduled and are losing money. They have to sell to survive, so far they have been lucky, making nice profits on their sales but what happens when they don''t have anyone good to sell?

[a1canary 0]

I take your points Buda, although you seem to have have conveniently not included the cost of Lita in your lita/chadwick comparison. The loan fee alone was probably similar to Chadders transfer and we had to get a rich benefactor to pay his wages so lord knows what the total cost was. But Chadders got injured so you should be comparing him to Kennedy say, or Bates. The loanees that get crocked go back to their employers yet we continue to pay their wages.

The other major flaw in your argument is this bit:

"I expect the number of permanent players to increase at the expense of the loaners..."

This is all very well, but how does your argument look when you consider that this isn''t going to happen. We''re heading towards a brick wall, where all our money will have been spent on loans (most of it already has) and then when they''ve all gone back we''ll be stuffed.

[nutty nigel 7,716]

I pretty much agree with the points you make a1. I can see no future in continually loaning players as the money goes straight out of the club with no hope of any return. But didn''t Roeder say at the AGM that ideally he would like to see ust own our own players too? I think what gets forgotten in all of this is the position we were in when Roeder took over. I''m not talking about league position either. I mean our squad and the players he inherited. That''s why I think he has done quite well in the transfer market. Grant had only been at the club for 1 year and he left Roeder Jamie Cureton who at 32 years old cost 750,000 and had 3 years of a very good contract still to run. Luke Chadwick who cost 220,000 and a good contract that has 2 more years to run and was always injured. Julian Brellier who cost nothing but had 2 years of a good contract still to run. Darrel Russell who cost 600,000 and had 3 years of a very good contract still to run. Simon Lappin 75,000 and 2 years still to run. He managed to off load Chris Brown without it costing us anything and I''m not sure what the deal was about Dave Strihavka but I''m sure it wasn''t much of an investment! Add to that Adam Drury on a contract with 4 years to run and that will give you some idea of what Roeder is up against. Now if you contrast these with Roeders permamnent signings you can see that buying players can be an investment. However it seems to me that with Grants permanent signings the money poured out of the club with no likely return costin far more than Roeders loans.

The way I see it Roeder had little option but to loan players while the club extracts itself out of the mess he inherited. You can blame Grant, Doncaster, The Smiths or The Turners or even all of them for their part in this but it certainly wasn''t Roeders fault and I don''t see how anyone can say it is.

 

[a1canary 0]

Regardless of what happened in the past Nutty, and appreciating that he has improved our squad in terms of personnel (if you overlook the loan issue), my fear is that continual loaning of players is unsustainable as a transfer policy. For the simple reason that i explain, that it''s actually more expensive in the long run to always loan players, just as renting a house is more expensive than buying as others have pointed out. Only the board can really know if this is the case, i''d love to ask ND at the an agm or fan''s forum.

Yes the whole business of football is unsustainable in this division, hence the need for most clubs to keep selling players when the books can''t be balanced, but of course we couldn''t do that if all our players are loanees!

[nutty nigel 7,716]

Where is paying £750,000 for a 32 year old striker and putting him on a 3 year contract regardless of performnce less expensive than the loans? Where''s the investment? What is the value of that player when the contract is up?

 

[Felixfan 53]

Whilst not a great fan of loans it is true to say that without them we would already be in Div. 1 and not able to attrac Prem. loanees.