Hard men

[Peregrine Shorts 315]

How long would a current player roll around for after taking an elbow from Joe Jordan

[cambridgeshire canary 6,741]

Got worried for a minute thinking you'd found my search history..

Edited March 20 by cambridgeshire canary

[Google Bot 3,278]

Most would fall down after getting tapped by Simon Jordan, let alone Joe.

I was watching some of our season review videos from 89-91 last night and was thinking how soft things have got today.

I remember pundits on TV laughing how one day you won't even be able to tackle and it was quite a big thing at the time - perhaps through the 90s?

I'm sure there was an ex player advising FIFA and pushing the game towards being one of interceptions and less physical contact.  I want to say Cruyff, but looked online and he never had a role with them... Maybe it was Beckenbauer?  Whoever it was there was a little bit of distaste for it.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Gennaro Gattuso famously nearly had a dose of the FAFO with him. The game's gone too far the wrong way for me - when diving can win you penalties and red cards for the opposition, it encourages simulation instead of proper competition.

Edited March 20 by TheGunnShow

[Capt. Pants 4,250]

They wouldn't last 5 mins but then again the likes of Jordan would have been sent off in the warm up.

[Bobzilla 145]

You cannot have a system where player registrations change hands for over £100m and yet their career can be ended overnight by deliberate physical violence from an opposition player.  That simply does not work.

But more importantly, I can’t understand how we ever had a game where you could commit acts that were not within the rules of the game where you would be arrested and charged with some pretty serious offences that could carry jail time if you weren’t on the pitch.

[Google Bot 3,278]

Just now, Bobzilla said:

You cannot have a system where player registrations change hands for over £100m

Well said! Let's stop it! 🙂

[Peregrine Shorts 315]

Think VAR might have told the ref to review that one

[Bobzilla 145]

5 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Well said! Let's stop it! 🙂

We’re a selling club.  We don’t want it to stop.  We did pretty well out of Buendia, and we’ll likely do pretty well out of Sara and Sainz and Sargeant when the time comes.  It’s player sales that keep the club afloat, and I think we win more than we lose from having to pay high fees for players.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,288]

Players haven’t gone ‘soft.’ The game has gone soft, and driven a step change in player attitudes and behaviour. 

[makham 81]

So I can spot Billy Bremner from just a small part of his forehead and a small patch of his ginger mop poking out behind Jordan's left shoulder, but I have no idea of the city players. Butler (background)? Is it Forbes taking the blow from hs fellow Scot? Just a bit before my time. Am i right or close? Be an easy one for many.

[Bobzilla 145]

5 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Players haven’t gone ‘soft.’ The game has gone soft, and driven a step change in player attitudes and behaviour. 

You mean the game has refocused into one about kicking a ball rather than kicking the opposition? 

Good.  If I wanted to watch someone smack 7 shades of **** out of their opponent, I'd watch boxing.

[Google Bot 3,278]

Just now, Bobzilla said:

You mean the game has refocused into one about kicking a ball rather than kicking the opposition? 

Wish it had:

[Commonsense 626]

14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Wish it had:

No use unless you have comparable figures for the earlier period.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

1 hour ago, makham said:

So I can spot Billy Bremner from just a small part of his forehead and a small patch of his ginger mop poking out behind Jordan's left shoulder, but I have no idea of the city players. Butler (background)? Is it Forbes taking the blow from hs fellow Scot? Just a bit before my time. Am i right or close? Be an easy one for many.

Big Dunc and behind is Doug Livermore 💛⚽💚

[Google Bot 3,278]

25 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

No use unless you have comparable figures for the earlier period.

As an absolute, 55% in-play minutes does not support that the game is focused on kicking a ball around, that's almost 7 hours across each prem league matchweek where the ball is not in play, and we know the causes. 

Sounds like an interesting video compilation, though, if someone had the time to assemble it all.

[canarybubbles 1,923]

10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Gennaro Gattuso famously nearly had a dose of the FAFO with him. The game's gone too far the wrong way for me - when diving can win you penalties and red cards for the opposition, it encourages simulation instead of proper competition.

But it shouldn't be either/or. You could use video evidence after the match to punish players found guilty of diving while at the same time trying to cut out the kind of dangerous thuggery that can end careers.

[Don’t be Krul 399]

Norman Hunter's after dinner speech used to contain the following anecdote:

I was watching the footy on the telly yesterday. My wife was hoovering and knocked into the telly and Robert Pires fell over!

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

But it shouldn't be either/or. You could use video evidence after the match to punish players found guilty of diving while at the same time trying to cut out the kind of dangerous thuggery that can end careers.

Which is incredibly rare at the top level nowadays, and football was/is a contact sport. And penalising the player who dived after the game is no good if their team gained a benefit within the game.

[canarybubbles 1,923]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Which is incredibly rare at the top level nowadays, and football was/is a contact sport. And penalising the player who dived after the game is no good if their team gained a benefit within the game.

I agree that in the short term, penalising the diver will do nothing to correct the injustice within that game, but if this was done on a regular basis and the punishments were tough enough, it would have the long-term effect of reducing the amount of diving and cheating.

[Nuff Said 5,146]

13 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Wish it had:

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

How you present data has the potential to be so misleading - that graph makes it look like Man City are hugely "better" than Leeds when the difference is actually less than 10%. Quickly typing the numbers into Excel but starting the x axis from 0:

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,392]

14 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

How you present data has the potential to be so misleading - that graph makes it look like Man City are hugely "better" than Leeds when the difference is actually less than 10%. Quickly typing the numbers into Excel but starting the x axis from 0:

 

Yes, and even within that small distribution Man C are an outlier,  presumably because of the supernatural way in which they keep possession. 

[canarycop 206]

The rules to book a player for diving have been around for ages. The fact refs don't is another story. They are allowing players to cheat yet book someone for taking their shirt off celebrating a goal. Until refs grow a pair nothing will change

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

14 hours ago, Bobzilla said:

You mean the game has refocused into one about kicking a ball rather than kicking the opposition? 

Good.  If I wanted to watch someone smack 7 shades of **** out of their opponent, I'd watch boxing.

I do not disagree with the sentiment, however we now have players losing the strength in their legs when their shirt gets a very light tug and players feigning injury to get a fellow professional sent off, that is not right either.

I do not want players going around kicking sevens shades of **** out of each other but I am equally sick of the rolling around in fake agony and players throwing themselves to the floor at the slightest touch.

11 a-side football is and has always has been a contact sport and a balance needs to be struck between the old days and how it is now...........

[Bobzilla 145]

2 hours ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

I do not disagree with the sentiment, however we now have players losing the strength in their legs when their shirt gets a very light tug and players feigning injury to get a fellow professional sent off, that is not right either.

I do not want players going around kicking sevens shades of **** out of each other but I am equally sick of the rolling around in fake agony and players throwing themselves to the floor at the slightest touch.

11 a-side football is and has always has been a contact sport and a balance needs to be struck between the old days and how it is now...........

Absolutely agree on the later. The 'unsportsmanlike conduct' rule is far too infrequently used for conduct that is actually unsporting.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

3 hours ago, canarycop said:

The rules to book a player for diving have been around for ages. The fact refs don't is another story. They are allowing players to cheat yet book someone for taking their shirt off celebrating a goal. Until refs grow a pair nothing will change

Often because it's bloody hard to determine if someone's simulating, even after a multitude of replays.

[Google Bot 3,278]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Often because it's bloody hard to determine if someone's simulating, even after a multitude of replays.

I think something like this would be best done using a voting system whereby each judge votes in isolation at the end of each match week where the ref has flagged the need for a review.  Only where all judges are in agreement would action be taken.

It would become a proactive measure, just as putting CCTV up is in a shop.  If people know they're being watched and retrospectively dealt with it lessens the number who would otherwise attempt to steal.

Edited March 21 by Google Bot

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

35 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I think something like this would be best done using a voting system whereby each judge votes in isolation at the end of each match week where the ref has flagged the need for a review.  Only where all judges are in agreement would action be taken.

It would become a proactive measure, just as putting CCTV up is in a shop.  If people know they're being watched and retrospectively dealt with it lessens the number who would otherwise attempt to steal.

Said before and I'll say it again, I'd scrap the penalty kick and replace the six-yard box with a ten-yard one (direct free-kicks instead of penalties, or even have penalty corners like in hockey), and I'd be completely amenable to the idea of scrapping straight red cards for tackles except in the most shocking of cases.

Simulation only happens because the risk of getting caught during the game is far lower than the rewards gained during the game (see Sainz vs. Middlesborough for details). As simulation is very tough to determine, we need to lower the chance of it taking place. If a penalty kick has an around 80% chance (not checked the exact stats, just plucking what looks like a reasonably accurate figure) of being scored, or a team going down to ten men is disadvantaged then take those opportunities away.

Football's always been a contact sport and when two players are fighting hard for a ball, there will be occasions where they get bumps and bruises and some will look far worse than was intended. That's where you get bad cases like the Giannoulis red card against Bournemouth under Farke's reign, which IMO was a classic case of refereeing by freeze-frame and not taking a holistic look at it.

It's far easier to spot a deliberate clogger than a faker so whilst I see where you're coming from, my preference would be to try and stop simulation at source.

Edited March 21 by TheGunnShow

[Midlands Yellow 3,995]

Greg Downs and Kevin Bond took no prisoners as a pair in the 80s. Plenty of opposing forwards would vouch for this fact. 

[Google Bot 3,278]

44 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Simulation only happens because the risk of getting caught during the game is far lower than the rewards gained during the game

Trouble is it's become normal for an attacking player to hook their leg into the defending player and it's accepted as being a skill, even when laying on the floor for minutes afterwards.  As a result the game is becoming more similar to first downs as you'd get in the NFL.

For me, it's this level of 'cheating' that needs to be eradicated, but first it needs to be called out for what it is.  But perhaps i'm in the minority?

The harder judgement calls will always exist.  It's these lower hanging fruits which we should be picking off though.