The Academy

[ridgeman 132]

 Let’s hope that Knapper is going to do some work on our academy. Last night we saw young Gray a seventeen year old playing for Leeds who has featured in 30 games this season, earlier this season against Sunderland we saw a sixteen year old come on as a substitute. What are we doing loaning out twenty and twenty one year olds to gain experience. Perhaps our development plans or staff need looking at.

 

[hogesar 9,708]

Yeah, but you're referring to one or two exceptions, not the rule.

[TIL 1010 4,773]

Farke has history with us for blooding youngsters into the team Aarons and Lewis being prime examples not forgetting Ben Godfrey.

[Move Klose 303]

The lad in the academy who's just signed a deal, Myles Elliot who was in demand,  supposedly Chelsea wanted him etc. I'd rather see him on the bench than Placheta. But we won't. It's the same reason Matos left last summer and why Aboh isn't signing a new deal and will move to a premier league side this summer. Was perfect opportunity vs Bristol R to have him coming off the bench but no we needed 2 GKs on the bench. 

The sooner Wagner goes the better for everyone else.

[A Load of Squit 5,194]

17 minutes ago, Move Klose said:

The lad in the academy who's just signed a deal, Myles Elliot who was in demand,  supposedly Chelsea wanted him etc. I'd rather see him on the bench than Placheta. But we won't. It's the same reason Matos left last summer and why Aboh isn't signing a new deal and will move to a premier league side this summer. Was perfect opportunity vs Bristol R to have him coming off the bench but no we needed 2 GKs on the bench. 

The sooner Wagner goes the better for everyone else.

The 2 GKs on the bench has been explained.

The sooner you stop posting this guff the better for everyone else.

[TheBaldOne66 693]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, but you're referring to one or two exceptions, not the rule.

Yes but our failure to even give the likes of Matos previously and Aboh recently a chance to even be on the bench in Cup games is making youngsters like these 2 disillusioned. Even before Farke we gave youngsters a chance but lately it seems to have stopped. If as we are led to believe the plan is to bring these guys on and have a pathway to the first team and then be sold for big money is true, why are they not getting a real chance?

[DraytonBoy 159]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, but you're referring to one or two exceptions, not the rule.

Exactly, Archie Gray is a 'once in a generation' talent, you don't get asked to train with the first team at 15 unless you are exceptional.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,169]

2 hours ago, Move Klose said:

The lad in the academy who's just signed a deal, Myles Elliot who was in demand,  supposedly Chelsea wanted him etc. I'd rather see him on the bench than Placheta. But we won't. It's the same reason Matos left last summer and why Aboh isn't signing a new deal and will move to a premier league side this summer. Was perfect opportunity vs Bristol R to have him coming off the bench but no we needed 2 GKs on the bench. 

The sooner Wagner goes the better for everyone else.

The fact that you can't even get his name right probably tells us all we need to know.................................

[hogesar 9,708]

1 hour ago, DraytonBoy said:

Exactly, Archie Gray is a 'once in a generation' talent, you don't get asked to train with the first team at 15 unless you are exceptional.

Yes, he looks a real talent. Not the norm by any standards.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, but you're referring to one or two exceptions, not the rule.

He's not though really.

Kellen Fisher is our youngest player to feature in the league this season.

He isn't one of the top 34 youngest players to feature in the Championship this season (the list on Transfermarkt happens to be 34 players long, I've not chosen an arbitrary number).

Meanwhile Norwich have named the two oldest starting line ups this season:

 

And Farke's Leeds have named 11 of the 50th youngest starting line ups this season, which can't all be down to a single young player. Just like his Norwich team, if they are good enough he plays them.

It does feel like if we're serious about bringing down the age of one of the leagues oldest squads then promoting youth would be part of that equation, hopefully Kamara, Tomkinson, Shipley, Warner, are all gaining experience in order to expedite their rise to senior level in the summer. Selling Jonny Rowe definitely wouldn't help matters, just as flogging Bali Mumba on the cheap didn't.

Edited January 25 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Ulfotto 640]

There are things to bash the club with but not blooding youngsters is surely not one of them.

While we still have chance of making the playoffs why would we be blooding untried youngsters? 
 

Let’s see how Matos gets on over the next few years. The guy is currently on loan at Huddersfield and is probably guaranteed football due the loan arrangement in place. Let’s be honest him swapping Chelsea for Norwich is about money rather than a pathway to the first team.

We all know if we don’t get promoted this year there will be a further reduction in the squad particularly senior players and come pre season all the youngsters will get a chance to stake there claim for the first team.

[TheGunnShow 5,957]

The fact that the likes of Warner, Hills, Shipley, Tomkinson, Adeboyega et al are on loan with lower Football League teams tells me we're pretty serious about improving youngsters. They've all got their chances to get regular first-team football, harden themselves up, and basically be the next Ben Godfrey or Todd Cantwell.

Not to mention that Rowe and Fisher have definitely had a good go this season, and to some extent also McCallum.

Edited January 25 by TheGunnShow

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

Surely the Academy should be praised rather than criticised, and with respect, I think that the O/P's premise is totally incorrect.

The Academy is currently one of our proudest boasts, especially when you take into account the contribution of young Rowe (and others mentioned above) this season.

[DraytonBoy 159]

1 hour ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

 

And Farke's Leeds have named 11 of the 50th youngest starting line ups this season, which can't all be down to a single young player. Just like his Norwich team, if they are good enough he plays them.

It's not quite as simple as that. Pretty much all of the older players at Leeds went out on loan or were sold between the end of last season and Farke taking over in July so he had no choice other than to play the younger players that were left.

[NewNestCarrow 202]

49 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

He's not though really.

Kellen Fisher is our youngest player to feature in the league this season.

He isn't one of the top 34 youngest players to feature in the Championship this season (the list on Transfermarkt happens to be 34 players long, I've not chosen an arbitrary number).

Meanwhile Norwich have named the two oldest starting line ups this season:

 

And Farke's Leeds have named 11 of the 50th youngest starting line ups this season, which can't all be down to a single young player. Just like his Norwich team, if they are good enough he plays them.

It does feel like if we're serious about bringing down the age of one of the leagues oldest squads then promoting youth would be part of that equation, hopefully Kamara, Tomkinson, Shipley, Warner, are all gaining experience in order to expedite their rise to senior level in the summer. Selling Jonny Rowe definitely wouldn't help matters, just as flogging Bali Mumba on the cheap didn't.

Jeez. This one again.

Those elderly NCFC starting elevens were down to injury. Replace Hwang with Sargent, Long with Gunn & Fassnacht with Rowe and your average age plummets. Meanwhile, look at the bench for one of those games - Reyes, Warner, Fisher, Gibbs, Springett & Idah - and tell me that our pathway isn't working?

A side pushing for play-offs - because that is what we are - does not have the luxury of dumping green youngsters into Championship starting line-ups.

Next June NCFC will welcome back three CBs, two FBs and a STR from successful loan spells.  If none of those make it to a senior squad in the Champs then your argument might hold water.

As for the Leeds pathway you seem so keen to praise, their youngest starting XI featured just two from the Academy system (Shackleton & Gray), with just two more on the bench. The other nine starters were purchased from other clubs &, while young-ish, were pretty much first-team ready.

 

[Yobocop 1,105]

Good to see the majority of people on here have slated the OP 

Shows that our fan base does at least have some knowledge on not only our Academy but the Academy and loan system as a whole

Nothing to see here, move on 

[Satriales 670]

4 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

Good to see the majority of people on here have slated the OP 

Shows that our fan base does at least have some knowledge on not only our Academy but the Academy and loan system as a whole

Nothing to see here, move on 

To be fair, most OP's on this forum get slated 😜

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

47 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

Jeez. This one again.

Those elderly NCFC starting elevens were down to injury. Replace Hwang with Sargent, Long with Gunn & Fassnacht with Rowe and your average age plummets. Meanwhile, look at the bench for one of those games - Reyes, Warner, Fisher, Gibbs, Springett & Idah - and tell me that our pathway isn't working?

A side pushing for play-offs - because that is what we are - does not have the luxury of dumping green youngsters into Championship starting line-ups.

Next June NCFC will welcome back three CBs, two FBs and a STR from successful loan spells.  If none of those make it to a senior squad in the Champs then your argument might hold water.

As for the Leeds pathway you seem so keen to praise, their youngest starting XI featured just two from the Academy system (Shackleton & Gray), with just two more on the bench. The other nine starters were purchased from other clubs &, while young-ish, were pretty much first-team ready.

You'd better tell Knapper that he's wrong then and we don't need to reduce the age of the squad, as he seems to think we do.

As for the 'praising the Leeds pathway', I simply didn't do that so no need to get your knickers in a twist, I was just saying that Farke hasn't been afraid to use young players this season, he's used 11 players aged 21 or under and Wagner has used 4.

I'm surprised that any Norwich fan would question the fact that any clubs 'pathway' would be enhanced with a coach like Daniel Farke at the helm, considering the work he did with young players here.

Edited January 25 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[repman 635]

I think our development plans over the last 5 years have at times been questionable. The best example of this was Idah, who after scoring the hat-trick vs Preston could've gone on loan but instead we kept him to act as 3rd choice striker. Another odd move was the Forshaw signing, where he supplanted Gibbs in the pecking order. Gibbs had had a decent first year and instead of trying to build off that it feels like we've sent him backwards. 

We are, as it stands, the 3rd oldest side in the league. I personally think a lot of the summer business was Webber doing his mate a favour by giving him the best chance at succeeding, practically relieving him of the task of bringing young players through. That's not great in terms of long term outlook and I don't think the short term has truly made up for that.

Luckily it seems like Knapper is already trying to sort this balance out, and might be having more of an influence than we realise. Nunez has played a lot since he came in, and in a deeper position than the second striker role Wagner had used him in before. Sainz was similar, granted there was an injury but he had 7 sub appearances before getting a start. Also, Forshaw out opens up the spot for Gibbs as a backup at least (maybe Sorensen too depending on how we see his future). Hwang out with no replacement coming in means that the minutes for Idah/Sargent (both still young!) should increase by virtue of their being one less option. Lastly we now have 4 young CB's out on loan, and with Batth/Gibson both having contracts up in the summer I expect it's very much a fight between them to earn their spots for next year. 

 

[Move Klose 303]

6 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

The fact that you can't even get his name right probably tells us all we need to know.................................

I'm confused what everyone here is talking about, the starter of this post made a very valid point.

We lost Matos because he didnt see us as being the best place to develop, it's common knowledge that Aboh is moving at the end of the season for the same reason. 

These aren't players that have burst on the scene in the last 6 months they've been delivering consistently for the u18s and u21s for a couple of seasons now and a club that players used to see as a club to make a name before getting a big money move isn't that at the moment.

How many debuts has Wagner given to a youth player since he's been here. 1 and he's just sent him out on loan.

This is a club that relies on a younger player hitting the heights and getting big money moves.

Remember when we went from a regular back 4 with Lewis, Aarons and Godfrey to fielding the oldest average aged side in the division is depressing. 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,957]

3 minutes ago, Move Klose said:

I'm confused what everyone here is talking about, the starter of this post made a very valid point.

We lost Matos because he didnt see us as being the best place to develop, it's common knowledge that Aboh is moving at the end of the season for the same reason. 

These aren't players that have burst on the scene in the last 6 months they've been delivering consistently for the u18s and u21s for a couple of seasons now and a club that players used to see as a club to make a name before getting a big money move isn't that at the moment.

How many debuts has Wagner given to a youth player since he's been here. 1 and he's just sent him out on loan.

This is a club that relies on a younger player hitting the heights and getting big money moves.

Remember when we went from a regular back 4 with Lewis, Aarons and Godfrey to fielding the oldest average aged side in the division is depressing. 

 

I think it had more to do with it being Chelsea that came in for him.  Some youngsters will always be turned by the money, even early on in their careers.

[Google Bot 3,298]

3 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

You'd better tell Knapper that he's wrong then and we don't need to reduce the age of the squad, as he seems to think we do.

But that's not in spite of Wagner which many are saying.  He's clearly happy to bring through youngsters as he's demonstrated, but how can he when the likes of Omobomidele are sold and the previous sporting director can only bring out of contract players in due to the budget?

I'm sure Wagner would be over the moon to be handed a load of youngsters to grow, but he's got the task of working with what's provded in an attempt to make us top six worthy.

Knapper has already put Springett and Warner out on loan which will bring the average age up, too.

Edited January 25 by Google Bot

[Nuff Said 5,152]

3 hours ago, Satriales said:

To be fair, most OP's on this forum get slated 😜

Binner

[Nuff Said 5,152]

8 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Yes but our failure to even give the likes of Matos previously and Aboh recently a chance to even be on the bench in Cup games is making youngsters like these 2 disillusioned. Even before Farke we gave youngsters a chance but lately it seems to have stopped. If as we are led to believe the plan is to bring these guys on and have a pathway to the first team and then be sold for big money is true, why are they not getting a real chance?

Have you ever considered they’re not getting a chance because they’re not as good as the alternative?
 

Wagner’s number one priority is to win games, he’s not a nursemaid. Which is why we use loans to develop talent, rather than damage our chances of winning games by selecting young players before they’re ready (and potentially damaging them too if they’re  out of their depth).

[RobJames 883]

9 hours ago, Move Klose said:

The lad in the academy who's just signed a deal, Myles Elliot who was in demand,  supposedly Chelsea wanted him etc. I'd rather see him on the bench than Placheta. But we won't. It's the same reason Matos left last summer and why Aboh isn't signing a new deal and will move to a premier league side this summer. Was perfect opportunity vs Bristol R to have him coming off the bench but no we needed 2 GKs on the bench. 

The sooner Wagner goes the better for everyone else.

Nothing much happening in binland ? Witness your need to invent stuff to attack NVCFC with. If things were so bad your sort would not need yo invented as, you do not know why Matos left or Aboh hasn't signed.

Whilst we have a round a half dozen youngsters out on loan, that is wrong, it appears. Whereas Matos not being on the bench at Chelsea, but out on loan, is OK ?  If a player is ready he will be played - Rowe. And will be given the chance...Springett, Fisher, and Gibbs. The latter being an example of how your club is regarded re youth players. Actually, just how many have gravitated from your club's academy ? Even in LI there was around, err...one. Maybe you could tell us how a City academy reject is doing at the suffolk cowshed... Gassan Ahadme. He could have come off the bench v Leeds. Mustn't laugh though as you are being linked with a L2 striker to cover the cracks. No academy strikers that could come off the bench ?

[daly 506]

10 hours ago, ridgeman said:

 Let’s hope that Knapper is going to do some work on our academy. Last night we saw young Gray a seventeen year old playing for Leeds who has featured in 30 games this season, earlier this season against Sunderland we saw a sixteen year old come on as a substitute. What are we doing loaning out twenty and twenty one year olds to gain experience. Perhaps our development plans or staff need looking at.

 

9 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Yes but our failure to even give the likes of Matos previously and Aboh recently a chance to even be on the bench in Cup games is making youngsters like these 2 disillusioned. Even before Farke we gave youngsters a chance but lately it seems to have stopped. If as we are led to believe the plan is to bring these guys on and have a pathway to the first team and then be sold for big money is true, why are they not getting a real chance?

 

10 hours ago, ridgeman said:

 Let’s hope that Knapper is going to do some work on our academy. Last night we saw young Gray a seventeen year old playing for Leeds who has featured in 30 games this season, earlier this season against Sunderland we saw a sixteen year old come on as a substitute. What are we doing loaning out twenty and twenty one year olds to gain experience. Perhaps our development plans or staff need looking at.

 

 

50 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Nothing much happening in binland ? Witness your need to invent stuff to attack NVCFC with. If things were so bad your sort would not need yo invented as, you do not know why Matos left or Aboh hasn't signed.

Whilst we have a round a half dozen youngsters out on loan, that is wrong, it appears. Whereas Matos not being on the bench at Chelsea, but out on loan, is OK ?  If a player is ready he will be played - Rowe. And will be given the chance...Springett, Fisher, and Gibbs. The latter being an example of how your club is regarded re youth players. Actually, just how many have gravitated from your club's academy ? Even in LI there was around, err...one. Maybe you could tell us how a City academy reject is doing at the suffolk cowshed... Gassan Ahadme. He could have come off the bench v Leeds. Mustn't laugh though as you are being linked with a L2 striker to cover the cracks. No academy strikers that could come off the bench ?

 

10 hours ago, ridgeman said:

 Let’s hope that Knapper is going to do some work on our academy. Last night we saw young Gray a seventeen year old playing for Leeds who has featured in 30 games this season, earlier this season against Sunderland we saw a sixteen year old come on as a substitute. What are we doing loaning out twenty and twenty one year olds to gain experience. Perhaps our development plans or staff need looking at.

 

Not when you put two goalkeepers on the bench

[NewNestCarrow 202]

2 hours ago, Move Klose said:

I'm confused what everyone here is talking about, the starter of this post made a very valid point.

We lost Matos because he didnt see us as being the best place to develop, it's common knowledge that Aboh is moving at the end of the season for the same reason. 

These aren't players that have burst on the scene in the last 6 months they've been delivering consistently for the u18s and u21s for a couple of seasons now and a club that players used to see as a club to make a name before getting a big money move isn't that at the moment.

How many debuts has Wagner given to a youth player since he's been here. 1 and he's just sent him out on loan.

This is a club that relies on a younger player hitting the heights and getting big money moves.

Remember when we went from a regular back 4 with Lewis, Aarons and Godfrey to fielding the oldest average aged side in the division is depressing. 

 

We lost Matos because he is a Chelsea fan and because he fancied the Big Time (like Glenn Middleton and like Ruben Shakpoke). Going on loan to Huddersfield really is not much of a step up, is it?

As for "delivering consistently ...." ?

Alex Matos 2021/2022: debut for U21s, one start and four subs

Alex Matos 2022/23: seven starts & six off the bench.

Ben Godfrey was quite happy to spend a year out on loan at Shrewsbury, learning his craft. This was sweetened by a four-year deal contract.  If Matos chose to turn down this kind of offer then what could we do?  

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,169]

11 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Yes but our failure to even give the likes of Matos previously and Aboh recently a chance to even be on the bench in Cup games is making youngsters like these 2 disillusioned. Even before Farke we gave youngsters a chance but lately it seems to have stopped. If as we are led to believe the plan is to bring these guys on and have a pathway to the first team and then be sold for big money is true, why are they not getting a real chance?

Wagner gave Springett a chance and was roundly criticised by the usual numptys on here for doing so - wasn't he?

[Thirsty Lizard 3,169]

3 hours ago, Move Klose said:

I'm confused what everyone here is talking about, the starter of this post made a very valid point.

We lost Matos because he didnt see us as being the best place to develop, it's common knowledge that Aboh is moving at the end of the season for the same reason. 

These aren't players that have burst on the scene in the last 6 months they've been delivering consistently for the u18s and u21s for a couple of seasons now and a club that players used to see as a club to make a name before getting a big money move isn't that at the moment.

How many debuts has Wagner given to a youth player since he's been here. 1 and he's just sent him out on loan.

This is a club that relies on a younger player hitting the heights and getting big money moves.

Remember when we went from a regular back 4 with Lewis, Aarons and Godfrey to fielding the oldest average aged side in the division is depressing. 

 

Seriously mate - you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Wagner has given a debut to three youth team players since he's been here. Abu Kamara, Jaden Warner and Kellen Fisher.

And I'll make it really clear for you - the young player who recently signed his first professional contract with us is called Elliot Myles not  Myles Elliot as you incorrectly called him. 

[repman 635]

I don't think Wagner is particularly keen on playing youngsters, but then again not many managers are. The easiest method of getting your youth team options on the pitch is by leaving the manager little choice in the matter. Look at the notable players who came through under Farke:

Lewis: Was injured for the first half of the season but the players who played LB before he did were Husband (not very good, signed only ever to be backup) and Stiepermann (not a left back).
Aarons: Farke used Pinto (who'd been declining) and Marshall (a winger) before turning to Max. The only gamble here was going with him over Passlack, but Max had been playing well in the cup so earned his spot.
Godfrey/Omobamidele: Both were the 4th choice CB options, obviously injuries meant that Godfrey's chance came sooner but it was the same principle both times.
Cantwell: Was the only back up to Buendia/Hernandez in the wide positions.