Sara & Barnes

[Coneys Knee 978]

We just have to find a way of getting Sara into Barnes’ position.

Ive nothing outright against Barnes, but I’m just struggling to see how he’s making an impact on games. If there’s one piece of transfer business I’d like to see happen this window, it would be to find a midfielder tailor made for the position Sara is currently being asked to ply, so we can release him into Barnes current position. We’d have far more goals in this team if we could do that I’m sure. When Sara gets forward he transforms into the player we know he is. Such a waste as a deep lying midfielder. 
 

One piece of elusive transfer business could make such a difference to this team. Asking for another Skipp is probably to tall an order but there has to be another Trybull out there surely.

[Mason 47 1,388]

I'm not really keen on Sara with a high starting position. All of his best work is whilst moving forward with the ball with options ahead of him. I do agree RE the Barnes role, though, it's not a particularly productive slot at the moment and I think we'd be much better off with another midfielder in there.

This is actually what Wagner did partway through the 2nd half (much to the chagrin of many fans given we took off Sargent + Rowe) and I'd like to see more of it. A stable midfielder in behind Sara/ Nunez so they can spend more time looking forwards than back.

[TheGunnShow 5,956]

2 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

I'm not really keen on Sara with a high starting position. All of his best work is whilst moving forward with the ball with options ahead of him. I do agree RE the Barnes role, though, it's not a particularly productive slot at the moment and I think we'd be much better off with another midfielder in there.

This is actually what Wagner did partway through the 2nd half (much to the chagrin of many fans given we took off Sargent + Rowe) and I'd like to see more of it. A stable midfielder in behind Sara/ Nunez so they can spend more time looking forwards than back.

Exactly this, Sara's a box-to-box man, not a number 10. If anyone's a number 10 in the classic mould in that squad, it's Nunez.

[Indy 3,307]

Absolutely agree, there’s very little coming from him having watched the highlights and listening to the game! Not sure what Wagner sees in him starting.

Agree about Sara, think moving him up and playing Numez in midfield will open up more chances for the pass to Rowe, Sainz or Sarge!

[canarybubbles 1,924]

An interesting debate in this thread on whether to use Sara or Nunez as the AM. I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on this, so I'd like to see them both tried in that role and then we judge who looks better suited to it. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,824]

Barnes doesn't do much that would end up on a highlights reel, but his experience, leadership, awkwardness to play against and general shlthousery are extremely underrated. I feel the team functions better, both as individuals and as a unit, with Barnes in the team. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that our poor run this season came when Barnes was out injured. We put in some weak performances which I'm not sure would've happened with Barnes there. Would we have shipped six at Plymouth? Would we have lost against Leeds having been 2-0 up with half an hour to go? 

[Indy 3,307]

7 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that our poor run this season came when Barnes was out injured. We put in some weak performances which I'm not sure would've happened with Barnes there. Would we have shipped six at Plymouth? Would we have lost against Leeds having been 2-0 up with half an hour to go? 

That’s not really true for me! We had three or four ****e results with Barnes in the team when Sargent got injured, we might not have been 2 up had Barnes been in the side v Leeds and we just look far more threatening with Sara or McLean got further towards yesterday! But we all see things differently that’s what makes a good debate….

Edited January 21 by Indy

[canarybubbles 1,924]

On the other hand, would we have lost to Millwall if Barnes had not been there? He wrestled an opponent to the ground (for which he should have got an instant red card) and turned the game into a war, which enraged and enlivened the Millwall crowd, something which played directly into the Millwall team's hands.

For me, the capitulations against Leeds and Watford were far more to do with Long's errors than any of the outfield players.

[yellowrider120 766]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

On the other hand, would we have lost to Millwall if Barnes had not been there? He wrestled an opponent to the ground (for which he should have got an instant red card) and turned the game into a war, which enraged and enlivened the Millwall crowd, something which played directly into the Millwall team's hands.

For me, the capitulations against Leeds and Watford were far more to do with Long's errors than any of the outfield players.

Spot on! That should have been the clearest red card you ever see. I fail to see how that sort of style justifies his automatic starting place. He rarely looks like scoring either. 

[Indy 3,307]

That’s the thing you can’t say what would have happened in games just the facts and for me Barnes first few games with Sargent the start of the season was superb! But for some reason he’s lost his legs and form, now sees his job as to wrestle and cause trouble which hinders our fast pace up top, when you get someone who can play a decent ball in that position our game going forwards looks superb.

[kingsway 94]

59 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Barnes doesn't do much that would end up on a highlights reel, but his experience, leadership, awkwardness to play against and general shlthousery are extremely underrated. I feel the team functions better, both as individuals and as a unit, with Barnes in the team. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that our poor run this season came when Barnes was out injured. We put in some weak performances which I'm not sure would've happened with Barnes there. Would we have shipped six at Plymouth? Would we have lost against Leeds having been 2-0 up with half an hour to go? 

100%!

 

I thought Barnes was one of our best players at Hull the other week doing exactly what you say he does! I agree he was a disaster at Millwall and should have been sent of but everyone has bad games including everyones "darling" Sara who while being a very good offensive player is not good enough defensively to be of interest to any Premier League club other than bottom 6 clubs.

 

As for the accusation his legs have gone, well he was never known for his pace anyway.

 

Too many fans expect/ or want us to play purist football like Man City but unfortunately this is the Championship and we have Championship players the vast majority of whom haven't got Barnes' experience and battling qualities. Barnes is not too disimilar to one of the best strikers we've had in the last 30 years Iwan Roberts, the difference being is that in Roberts days at Norwich the team put the ball into the box more than the current lot does which I feel limits Barnes potential impact.

 

Yesterday was our best 11 starting line up and Saras our central midfield attacking player while McClean is the defensive one. It worked!

Edited January 21 by kingsway

[kingsway 94]

2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

On the other hand, would we have lost to Millwall if Barnes had not been there? He wrestled an opponent to the ground (for which he should have got an instant red card) and turned the game into a war, which enraged and enlivened the Millwall crowd, something which played directly into the Millwall team's hands.

For me, the capitulations against Leeds and Watford were far more to do with Long's errors than any of the outfield players.

I blame Wagner for the Leeds defeat because we had them well beat with Hernandez and Rowe in particular terrorising the full backs then our head coach in his wisdom decided to sub both of them for inferior players in particularly Springett who should be nowhere near a Championship team. This let Leeds back into the game, gave their outplayed fullbacks respite and nullified Norwich's attack which allowed them to attack us more which soon lead to them beating us!

Edited January 21 by kingsway

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,289]

If he’s hell bent on picking undroppable Kenny McLean, then Nunez should start next to him and Sara pushed into 10 ahead of Barnes.

However, Barnes does a lot of stuff that goes u price unnoticed and cleverly bought a few free kicks to relieve the pressure.

I just want to see Nunez start tbh. He’s quality.

[kingsway 94]

I think you'll find that McLean is undroppable because hes ones of our most consistant players something Nunez hasn't managed up to date!

Edited January 21 by kingsway

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,789]

Sara is capable of scoring 15 odd goals a season from midfield as Bradley Johnson did in the playoff winning season, if he was deployed in a position where he was able. Shouldnt be anywhere near our own penalty box

[Gordon Bennett 787]

53 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Barnes doesn't do much that would end up on a highlights reel, but his experience, leadership, awkwardness to play against and general shlthousery are extremely underrated. I feel the team functions better, both as individuals and as a unit, with Barnes in the team. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that our poor run this season came when Barnes was out injured. We put in some weak performances which I'm not sure would've happened with Barnes there. Would we have shipped six at Plymouth? Would we have lost against Leeds having been 2-0 up with half an hour to go? 

Absolutely agree.

He does the dirtier side of the game and a lot of his work goes unnoticed. I get the clamour to play Sara further forward but it's mot as open and shut as some think IMO.

 

 

[Mason 47 1,388]

59 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Barnes doesn't do much that would end up on a highlights reel, but his experience, leadership, awkwardness to play against and general shlthousery are extremely underrated. I feel the team functions better, both as individuals and as a unit, with Barnes in the team. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that our poor run this season came when Barnes was out injured. We put in some weak performances which I'm not sure would've happened with Barnes there. Would we have shipped six at Plymouth? Would we have lost against Leeds having been 2-0 up with half an hour to go? 

I don't doubt his contributions at all, and I think it's still fairly clear we pick up more points with Barnes in than out.

However, the question for me is more of set-up than of the player himself. He's clearly vital to our 4-2-4- I think 4 or 5 players have been tried there and none made it stick- but my personal opinion is the 4-2-4 is naturally flawed. Barnes is in there to stabilise a formation which even then doesn't appear particularly effective.

The discussion continues elsewhere in the side, anyway. I'd argue shipping 6 at Plymouth had a lot more to do with our fullbacks being pinned up front with no plan B, than who was playing at second-striker.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly this, Sara's a box-to-box man, not a number 10. If anyone's a number 10 in the classic mould in that squad, it's Nunez.

100% this.

[Badger 2,407]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

An interesting debate in this thread on whether to use Sara or Nunez as the AM. I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on this, so I'd like to see them both tried in that role and then we judge who looks better suited to it. 

My preference would be neither - switch to 4-3-3, with a sitting midfielder and Sara, Nunez both playing box-to-box. The pressing system would need some reorganisation as would plans for transitions.

[Petriix 2,847]

Did nobody notice that Sara was heavily involved in our second goal yesterday from the number 10 position and scored from the same role vs Bristol Rovers midweek. He's clearly better as a 10 than an 8.

[Mr.Carrow 378]

19 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Barnes doesn't do much that would end up on a highlights reel, but his experience, leadership, awkwardness to play against and general shlthousery are extremely underrated. I feel the team functions better, both as individuals and as a unit, with Barnes in the team. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that our poor run this season came when Barnes was out injured. We put in some weak performances which I'm not sure would've happened with Barnes there. Would we have shipped six at Plymouth? Would we have lost against Leeds having been 2-0 up with half an hour to go? 

If you watch Barnes he plays most of the game with his back to goal. His job is to make the ball stick in dangerous areas of the pitch, then bring the more creative players into play- and he's pretty good at it. Sara would only really work in that position if we went back to possession based football rather than counter punching and I'm of the opinion that with the players we have the latter is more effective (as born out by results).

[canarybubbles 1,924]

31 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If you watch Barnes he plays most of the game with his back to goal. His job is to make the ball stick in dangerous areas of the pitch, then bring the more creative players into play- and he's pretty good at it. Sara would only really work in that position if we went back to possession based football rather than counter punching and I'm of the opinion that with the players we have the latter is more effective (as born out by results).

I broadly agree with this in the sense that if we drop Barnes, we need to play a different style of football. The question is whether the gain of using Sara more creatively outweighs the loss of the current counter punching strategy.

I tend to think that the argument is moot because Wagner seems totally committed to the latter.

[Indy 3,307]

10 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If you watch Barnes he plays most of the game with his back to goal. His job is to make the ball stick in dangerous areas of the pitch, then bring the more creative players into play- and he's pretty good at it. Sara would only really work in that position if we went back to possession based football rather than counter punching and I'm of the opinion that with the players we have the latter is more effective (as born out by results).

I’ve watched two games this season at CR and a few on tv when Barnes is playing, I’m sorry to say but he doesn’t make the ball stick that often most of the time he’s either bypassed or the defender wins the ball! If he did what you say then I’d have no complaints but he’s no better than Idah at doing that!

I’m seeing a pattern that those who are standing up for Barnes are referencing past players like Iwan or hold but in reality he’s more a Hugill! Waste of a player for 80 minutes of the game!

We look so much better when we play the ball quickly and use our speed! Sainz & Rowe look good when played through!

If we want a player to hold the ball up and carry on running the space too then Sargent can do that.

[BroadstairsR 2,185]

Barnes seems to be on the end of criticism for the very reasons he was lauded upon his signing and in the early season games.

The Sargent/Barnes partnership was considered one of the reasons for our early success.

Ok, perhaps some of the proposals above, especially those regarding Sara's position, are valid and probably worth trying, but I wouldn't write Ashley off just yet and would actually continue with him and the Sarg. for the tough Leeds game. Tough in more ways than one.

The commentary team were full of praise for the man's (unseen?) efforts against WBA on Saturday. I won't comment myself as I am a screen supporter, but those reporting to that screen were not. 

Edited January 22 by BroadstairsR

[Robert N. LiM 4,427]

I do wonder whether Barnes adds more to the team than meets the eye. There definitely seemed a leadership vacuum on the field last season: I wonder if what DF would have called his 'soft skills' are appreciated by DW - and the rest of the team.

Edited January 22 by Robert N. LiM
Just seen BroadstairsR has basically made the same point.

[Bradwell canary 109]

With Barnes manager often said it what he brings to the dressing room, and his leadership skills.

strange that, there’s silly me thought he was bought in as a striker, despite his awful goal scoring record. Still he was free, but probably on huge wages.

Personally I would rather have a goal scorer, than someone good in the dressing room. Games are won on the field, not in the dressing room.

[Bradwell canary 109]

On 21/01/2024 at 15:52, Petriix said:

Did nobody notice that Sara was heavily involved in our second goal yesterday from the number 10 position and scored from the same role vs Bristol Rovers midweek. He's clearly better as a 10 than an 8.

Agree, and who knows, if he is not playing in his best, and his favourite position extensively,  what then, could make him unhappy and want to move on.

[Yobocop 1,105]

On 21/01/2024 at 10:20, canarybubbles said:

On the other hand, would we have lost to Millwall if Barnes had not been there? He wrestled an opponent to the ground (for which he should have got an instant red card) and turned the game into a war, which enraged and enlivened the Millwall crowd, something which played directly into the Millwall team's hands.

For me, the capitulations against Leeds and Watford were far more to do with Long's errors than any of the outfield players.

So much so Millwall went down to 10

we should’ve got at least a draw that night, a few chances missed and very poor ref decisions, nowt to do with Barnes