Mumba

[The Bunny 314]

On 23/07/2023 at 12:04, horsefly said:

 

"letting all our talented players leave for free or next to nothing"

Feel free to provide the list of all those talented players who left for free or next to nothing. I'm too stupid to remember their names.

There's been a gradual dilution of creative talent since Buendia left. Some recent examples are Dowell, Cantwell and Pukki, as well as Mumba of course. Our failure to hang on to Ramsey last season was also quite laughable (although he was a loan, so less of a long term impact). 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

 

You guys all said it, not me! @hogesar @Branston Pickle @TheGunnShow @BigFish

I understand that now the transfer has happened, you are happy to get behind it because the club has made the decision and ultimately that trumps all as supporters and we have to respect the underlying professional knowledge behind the transfer which we are a million miles away from. 

But at the same time, its clear that you all had similar expectations to what I did for Mumba's potential in the team, and I think its okay to feel a bit disappointed if it transpires that your expectation and the reality differ significantly. 

Perhaps you are all better supporters than me, willing to set aside all of your expectations at the drop of a hat, as soon as the club does something which goes against the grain of your understanding. And fair play if so, I just find it more difficult.

It's just very anti-climactic that a player to me who has been spoke about in such a high regard, probably the best youngster we've had out on loan in recent seasons, is now being sold for a very small fee without ever being given the proper chance in the first team that we all wanted to see. 

I think its okay to admit that personally, without it being a great attack on the club either, hell you guys are entitled to feel bummed out from time to time too!

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

5 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

 

You guys all said it, not me! @hogesar @Branston Pickle @TheGunnShow @BigFish

I understand that now the transfer has happened, you are happy to get behind it because the club has made the decision and ultimately that trumps all as supporters and we have to respect the underlying professional knowledge behind the transfer which we are a million miles away from. 

But at the same time, its clear that you all had similar expectations to what I did for Mumba's potential in the team, and I think its okay to feel a bit disappointed if it transpires that your expectation and the reality differ significantly. 

Perhaps you are all better supporters than me, willing to set aside all of your expectations at the drop of a hat, as soon as the club does something which goes against the grain of your understanding. And fair play if so, I just find it more difficult.

It's just very anti-climactic that a player to me who has been spoke about in such a high regard, probably the best youngster we've had out on loan in recent seasons, is now being sold for a very small fee without ever being given the proper chance in the first team that we all wanted to see. 

I think its okay to admit that personally, without it being a great attack on the club either, hell you guys are entitled to feel bummed out from time to time too!

Yeah, I said I had a suspicion and I was excited, but when I look at everything else put together, I can see this being a sound enough decision. Ultimately, his performance at Plymouth will determine how good a decision this is but in the light of having quite a large squad and his overwhelming chance of being a bench-filler, I'm content with this to start with. 

I'm also content with a deal where we've made a nice profit on the player, got a sell-on clause (probably) if he kicks on as the Maddison sale showed we can still earn from our development work and get an unexpected windfall here and there. As said before, this is still a fine example of how our model works, it's just not quite the top-end result of a Buendia or Maddison. But a million quid gets you a few chances at more prospects.

EDIT: This is also how we get the likes of Gabriel Forsyth and Kellen Fisher through the door. They can see that even if they don't quite work out for our first team, we'll have a strong structure in place to ensure they get quality first-team time and to gauge their level. It's not just about the Buendias, Godfreys and Maddisons when it comes to keeping the club ticking over.

Edited July 24, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Branston Pickle 3,678]

17 minutes ago, S_81 said:

A moment ago you were saying it made sense for us and him. It only makes sense for him on the basis that he wasn’t going to be played. Which remains baffling and a poor call by Wagner - who appeared to have written him off before he even arrived back at Colney 

Yes, it made sense for us and him as he wasn’t going to play (much) for us. I thought he’d come back and we’d be able to use him but having had a look they’ve obviously decided he’s not quite a fit for our needs. You might not like it but it is true, we don’t play wing-backs and we have other several players ahead of him.  A loan would have given us the option of looking again next season, but for the player that’s pretty crap. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[hogesar 9,720]

11 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

 

You guys all said it, not me! @hogesar @Branston Pickle @TheGunnShow @BigFish

I understand that now the transfer has happened, you are happy to get behind it because the club has made the decision and ultimately that trumps all as supporters and we have to respect the underlying professional knowledge behind the transfer which we are a million miles away from. 

But at the same time, its clear that you all had similar expectations to what I did for Mumba's potential in the team, and I think its okay to feel a bit disappointed if it transpires that your expectation and the reality differ significantly. 

Perhaps you are all better supporters than me, willing to set aside all of your expectations at the drop of a hat, as soon as the club does something which goes against the grain of your understanding. And fair play if so, I just find it more difficult.

It's just very anti-climactic that a player to me who has been spoke about in such a high regard, probably the best youngster we've had out on loan in recent seasons, is now being sold for a very small fee without ever being given the proper chance in the first team that we all wanted to see. 

I think its okay to admit that personally, without it being a great attack on the club either, hell you guys are entitled to feel bummed out from time to time too!

I mean that only really re-affirms everything i've said. He's an example of the academy working, getting a loan, not fitting in with our first team but selling for a 300% ish profit.

As I keep saying I've not seen him play for any sensible amount of games to judge if he's ready for this league or not. Either way, if the manager isn't going to play  him...

Edited July 24, 2023 by hogesar

[S_81 829]

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Yes, it made sense for us and him as he wasn’t going to play for us.  You might not like it but it is true, we have several players ahead of him.  A loan would have given us the option of looking again next season, but for the player that’s pretty crap. 

It’s a really poor decision and remains so. Wagner may well be gone by January if he continues as he did in the last ten. If they weren’t going to play Mumba he should have been loaned, with a January recall option. I’m sure Plymouth would have agreed to such terms, for example. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I mean that only really re-affirms everything i've said. He's an example of the academy working, getting a loan, not fitting in with our first team but selling for a 300% ish profit.

As I keep saying I've not seen him play for any sensible amount of games to judge if he's ready for this league or not. Either way, if the manager isn't going to play  him...

So how much did you see him play to decide he was a player other academies could be 'lucky to pick up every 3-4 years'? And again, if I thought he was THAT good, I would certainly feel a bit disappointed in selling as we now have done... It's perfectly okay Hoggy, you can do it!

Its not to say you know better than the manager or the club, but just to acknowledge that the reality didn't stack up with your own personal hopes for the player...

[Branston Pickle 3,678]

22 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

 

You guys all said it, not me! @hogesar @Branston Pickle @TheGunnShow @BigFish

I understand that now the transfer has happened, you are happy to get behind it because the club has made the decision and ultimately that trumps all as supporters and we have to respect the underlying professional knowledge behind the transfer which we are a million miles away from. 

But at the same time, its clear that you all had similar expectations to what I did for Mumba's potential in the team, and I think its okay to feel a bit disappointed if it transpires that your expectation and the reality differ significantly. 

Perhaps you are all better supporters than me, willing to set aside all of your expectations at the drop of a hat, as soon as the club does something which goes against the grain of your understanding. And fair play if so, I just find it more difficult.

It's just very anti-climactic that a player to me who has been spoke about in such a high regard, probably the best youngster we've had out on loan in recent seasons, is now being sold for a very small fee without ever being given the proper chance in the first team that we all wanted to see. 

I think its okay to admit that personally, without it being a great attack on the club either, hell you guys are entitled to feel bummed out from time to time too!

Jeez - that’s not nit-picking at all is it.  My quote was in the context of the Academy, as you full well know, or if you can be bothered to read. And still stands. There was presumably a plan for Mumba but things change he now fits a different playing model.  I have already and consistently said I’d have probably gone for another loan, but getting £1m+ seems decent enough for a player who isn’t going to play.

I find it extraordinary that some just can’t accept this transfer, it is bizarre.  I think some seem to think he’s still a teenager, but he is actually 22 in a couple of months.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

20 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

There's been a gradual dilution of creative talent since Buendia left. Some recent examples are Dowell, Cantwell and Pukki, as well as Mumba of course. Our failure to hang on to Ramsey last season was also quite laughable (although he was a loan, so less of a long term impact). 

The loss of Ramsey was a self-inflicted wound. He came because of Smith, and left because of Smith. It was dressed up as an injury to save face, but he was off playing for someone else in very short order.

[hogesar 9,720]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

So how much did you see him play to decide he was a player other academies could be 'lucky to pick up every 3-4 years'? And again, if I thought he was THAT good, I would certainly feel a bit disappointed in selling as we now have done... It's perfectly okay Hoggy, you can do it!

Its not to say you know better than the manager or the club, but just to acknowledge that the reality didn't stack up with your own personal hopes for the player...

I'd seen very little of him, but any academy isn't "drying up" if they have a youngster on loan at the division below playing regularly as a title winning side.

I can't say I'm disappointed because I have no idea how good or not he would have been. I'm more disappointed the club failed with Cantwell, in fact 10x more so than Mumba.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Jeez - that’s not nit-picking at all is it.  My quote was in the context of the Academy, as you full well know, or if you can be bothered to read. And still stands. There was presumably a plan for Mumba but things change he now fits a different playing model.  I have already and consistently said I’d have probably gone for another loan, but getting £1m+ seems decent enough for a player who isn’t going to play.

I find it extraordinary that some just can’t accept this transfer, it is bizarre.

It was 5 mins of searching! So you were saying that Mumba was 'clearly set for a future role'... in the academy? 

Its not some massive 'gotcha' by the way, I'm just surprised you don't find it a tad disappointing because all of our expectations were aligned a week ago on the subject.

And again, I do accept the transfer, clearly - its happened now - I'm just intrigued by posters speaking candidly as if the sale was always in the cards to them, and not actually a bit unexpected.

I agree a loan would've 100% made the most sense, but then that brings into discussion Mumba's own desires - perhaps he wanted to leave in which case we didn't really have much choice. But again, I'd still feel a bit disappointed if that is the case!

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

8 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

It was 5 mins of searching! So you were saying that Mumba was 'clearly set for a future role'... in the academy? 

Its not some massive 'gotcha' by the way, I'm just surprised you don't find it a tad disappointing because all of our expectations were aligned a week ago on the subject.

And again, I do accept the transfer, clearly - its happened now - I'm just intrigued by posters speaking candidly as if the sale was always in the cards to them, and not actually a bit unexpected.

I agree a loan would've 100% made the most sense, but then that brings into discussion Mumba's own desires - perhaps he wanted to leave in which case we didn't really have much choice. But again, I'd still feel a bit disappointed if that is the case!

No-one's said the transfer was always in the cards, but it is a fair representation of how our model works when you're dealing with a player that is not a breakout star. Mumba is clearly a player that the current powers-that-be think may fall slightly short of what we need and also in terms of how he fits in.

Any minor disappointment about potential not being used is more than offset by the fact we've made a good profit on him and probably got more coming in if Mumba kicks on and shows the potential described. However, his time at Peterborough showed he did have his defensive issues.

Edited July 24, 2023 by TheGunnShow
Slight grammar error.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'd seen very little of him, but any academy isn't "drying up" if they have a youngster on loan at the division below playing regularly as a title winning side.

I can't say I'm disappointed because I have no idea how good or not he would have been. I'm more disappointed the club failed with Cantwell, in fact 10x more so than Mumba.

But it is drying up isn't it? If he is / was the academies brightest prospect then the sale now does kind of indicate my overall feelings for the decline in our model. As I said, we are finding player sales further and further up the conveyor belt rather than selling them ready made after breaking through to the team at the peak of their value. A few seasons ago several players from our academy broke through to the first team and were valued £20-£30 million at their peaks. And yes maybe Mumba never would've got close to that, but for £1 million I'd rather we take the chance and hope he does - we could've still got £1 million for him in January if things weren't working out... 

Agreed RE Cantwell!

[Branston Pickle 3,678]

2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

It was 5 mins of searching! So you were saying that Mumba was 'clearly set for a future role'... in the academy? 

Its not some massive 'gotcha' by the way, I'm just surprised you don't find it a tad disappointing because all of our expectations were aligned a week ago on the subject.

And again, I do accept the transfer, clearly - its happened now - I'm just intrigued by posters speaking candidly as if the sale was always in the cards to them, and not actually a bit unexpected.

I agree a loan would've 100% made the most sense, but then that brings into discussion Mumba's own desires - perhaps he wanted to leave in which case we didn't really have much choice. But again, I'd still feel a bit disappointed if that is the case!

Of course the sale wasn’t wholly expected - no one has said it was - though it would have been no surprise to me to see him head out on loan again. 

There was quite probably an initial plan for Mumba, but he has come back having played well in an entirely different system.  We’ve tried him out in preseason games and he’s behind various others in our squad.  We aren’t going to change system just for one lad, so he wasn’t going to play (much).  On that basis a loan or sale was probably the right answer.  It may be that he (and Plymouth) preferred a permanent move.

We were told in May that there would be a turnover of playing staff, and it has been much less than we thought it would be to this point. I’d not be that surprised to see others leave.  

[The Bunny 314]

6 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

On that basis a loan or sale was probably the right answer.  It may be that he (and Plymouth) preferred a permanent move.

No way in the world Plymouth wouldn't take another loan, given the regard they clearly held him in. It's very similar to the Skipp situation here (IIRC the club tried to secure another loan when we went up, but Spurs said no). 

Letting him go on a permanent for 1m just seems negligent. It's basically us saying he has no future at this club. Quite a statement given that there's a not unreasonable chance we'll have a new manager come season end. Perhaps an engaged DoF might have realized that. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,836]

I'm not really sure if Mumba has anything to do with whether our academy is working or not.

He joined us an 18-year-old, never played for the U18s, represented the U21s eight times and played nine times for the first team. He was basically a first-team signing, albeit on the fringes.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[BigFish 1,988]

49 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

 

You guys all said it, not me! @hogesar @Branston Pickle @TheGunnShow @BigFish

I understand that now the transfer has happened, you are happy to get behind it because the club has made the decision and ultimately that trumps all as supporters and we have to respect the underlying professional knowledge behind the transfer which we are a million miles away from. 

But at the same time, its clear that you all had similar expectations to what I did for Mumba's potential in the team, and I think its okay to feel a bit disappointed if it transpires that your expectation and the reality differ significantly. 

Perhaps you are all better supporters than me, willing to set aside all of your expectations at the drop of a hat, as soon as the club does something which goes against the grain of your understanding. And fair play if so, I just find it more difficult.

It's just very anti-climactic that a player to me who has been spoke about in such a high regard, probably the best youngster we've had out on loan in recent seasons, is now being sold for a very small fee without ever being given the proper chance in the first team that we all wanted to see. 

I think its okay to admit that personally, without it being a great attack on the club either, hell you guys are entitled to feel bummed out from time to time too!

Well @Hank shoots Skyler, you have been busy, but we brought in Jack Stacy instead and that makes Mumba redundant.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Well @Hank shoots Skyler, you have been busy, but we brought in Jack Stacy instead and that makes Mumba redundant.

Aren’t we also trying to sell Aarons?

[sgncfc 1,253]

Better football people than anyone on this messageboard have made the call that Mumba is surplus. We'll never know the reason. Of course it's a bit disappointing but the signs weren't good if you made any effort to read them - from Wagner saying he wouldn't use wingbacks to him not getting game time.

[A Load of Squit 5,205]

Mumba chose to go to a four year contract with a certain (as much as you can be certain in football) starting place in a position that suits him.

With us he had 2 years, no real identity (full back, wing back, left side attacker?) in our first team.

We talked about his potential, Plymouth gave him the reality of first team football.

It really is the definition of a 'no brainer'.

[BigFish 1,988]

2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Aren’t we also trying to sell Aarons?

So we are led to believe, although he hasn't moved yet. We also bought Kellen Fisher who is younger and can provide cover. If Aarons doesn't get his move we were in danger to going into the season with 4 Right Backs. Now I understand your disappointment, we all have high hopes for player that don't reflect the view of the technical team (not just Wagner)-mine is Tzolis.

[Midlands Yellow 4,040]

51 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

So how much did you see him play to decide he was a player other academies could be 'lucky to pick up every 3-4 years'? And again, if I thought he was THAT good, I would certainly feel a bit disappointed in selling as we now have done... It's perfectly okay Hoggy, you can do it!

Its not to say you know better than the manager or the club, but just to acknowledge that the reality didn't stack up with your own personal hopes for the player...

Good luck with this one. 

[Indy 3,310]

1 minute ago, BigFish said:

So we are led to believe, although he hasn't moved yet. We also bought Kellen Fisher who is younger and can provide cover. If Aarons doesn't get his move we were in danger to going into the season with 4 Right Backs. Now I understand your disappointment, we all have high hopes for player that don't reflect the view of the technical team (not just Wagner)-mine is Tzolis.

Not only this but isn’t Aaron’s out of contract and over 23 meaning he can leave on a free next year? Might need to sell at a discounted price to ensure we get some money for him.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

There's no point arguing any more - Mumba has gone. We just have to wait to see what happens.

But if he turns out to be very good, we have to remember all of the suckers-up to Wagner and Webber and the club, because as sure as hell they will be doing all they can to rewrite history and pretend they weren't in favour of this sale.

Buh gets a lot of flak on this site but at least he nails his colours to the mast - he doesn't change with the direction of the wind.

[hogesar 9,720]

2 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

But it is drying up isn't it? If he is / was the academies brightest prospect then the sale now does kind of indicate my overall feelings for the decline in our model. As I said, we are finding player sales further and further up the conveyor belt rather than selling them ready made after breaking through to the team at the peak of their value. A few seasons ago several players from our academy broke through to the first team and were valued £20-£30 million at their peaks. And yes maybe Mumba never would've got close to that, but for £1 million I'd rather we take the chance and hope he does - we could've still got £1 million for him in January if things weren't working out... 

Agreed RE Cantwell!

I don't think it's drying up. Brad Hills has just gone out on loan, Kellen Fisher is highly rated by Wagner to the point he's expected to be around the first team, Tomkinson too. Rowe is now in the first team having come from the academy, Springett and Gibbs too. Kamara has just gone on loan to league one, the same league of course Mumba has just proven himself in.

Sounds like the polar opposite of drying up to me.

[hogesar 9,720]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

There's no point arguing any more - Mumba has gone. We just have to wait to see what happens.

But if he turns out to be very good, we have to remember all of the suckers-up to Wagner and Webber and the club, because as sure as hell they will be doing all they can to rewrite history and pretend they weren't in favour of this sale.

Buh gets a lot of flak on this site but at least he nails his colours to the mast - he doesn't change with the direction of the wind.

Now you're going to lie about other posters including me, great.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Now you're going to lie about other posters including me, great.

No, I might even take the trouble to do the research and quote them.

[horsefly 4,310]

3 hours ago, The Bunny said:

There's been a gradual dilution of creative talent since Buendia left. Some recent examples are Dowell, Cantwell and Pukki, as well as Mumba of course. Our failure to hang on to Ramsey last season was also quite laughable (although he was a loan, so less of a long term impact). 

Oh look! Another of those talents  the club "let go for free or next to nothing" https://www.pinkun.com/news/23676078.former-norwich-city-striker-jamar-loza-joins-leiston/

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't think it's drying up. Brad Hills has just gone out on loan, Kellen Fisher is highly rated by Wagner to the point he's expected to be around the first team, Tomkinson too. Rowe is now in the first team having come from the academy, Springett and Gibbs too. Kamara has just gone on loan to league one, the same league of course Mumba has just proven himself in.

Sounds like the polar opposite of drying up to me.

'The polar opposite of drying up'... that would surely mean the academy has been continuously improving over the past few seasons and is now in a much better position now than ever before? Come on now! I'm not even sure if you believe what you're writing sometimes!

I'm not saying we don't have any prospects, clearly we do, but I think its pretty fair to say that we peaked during Farke's second season when we had Aarons, Godfrey, Cantwell, Lewis all as academy players coming through to the first team, and we've struggled to recreate that success since. Alright we still have Gibbs, Idah, Aarons and Omobamidele in and around the first team but the levels individually and on the whole have dropped off so much. And our seemingly next brightest academy prospect gets sold for £1 million. That is a far cry from 3-4 years ago. 

You also mention that Fisher is highly rated and expected around the first team, but that's exactly what Wagner said about Mumba a month ago and now he's left!

I'll believe it when it happens, and I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong and for some of these players to come in and raise the bar of the first team, and reverse the downwards trend the club is very clearly on! But even if that does eventually happen, I don't think we need to plug our ears pretend like there hasn't been a drop off in the academy's successes over the past couple of seasons. Or even worse, pretend like its thriving more than ever before...

[Nuff Said 5,160]

3 hours ago, S_81 said:

There’s some posters on here who will blindly just cheer anything the hierarchy at the club does. It’s so consistent, as is their shouting down of any criticism, that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they work for the club. Or are utterly naive happy clappers. Or both. 

Let’s see some actual proof of this. Or shut the **** up?

What you will find if you look is that there are posters who will look for the positive in news and events. This is very different from “blindly cheering”. I’m afraid if you can’t see the difference, you’re either thick or looking for a fight.