Fundamentally what do you think is the real problem we face?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

1 minute ago, canarybubbles said:

And if we do have a poor start and it gets toxic, what does it matter to Webber? He has a scapegoat ready and he'll just sack Wagner. And if he gets the Leeds job or something at a similar level, he'll just walk away. No mud will stick to him outside of Norfolk.

He'll join a growing list of people who've had mud thrown at them at Norwich for reasons incomprehensible to the rest of the world.

[shefcanary 2,409]

10 hours ago, Petriix said:

The real problem we face is that expectations are unrealistically high when you look at the reality of our situation.

That is the problem from a fan's perspective in a nutshell. But it was ever thus!

10 hours ago, Petriix said:

We do, however, have some assets and potential. We might also have an underlying philosophy which could become successful in time. What we need is patience with all of these things and an acceptance that the past successes are no indication of our current position.

I agree with this statement too!

10 hours ago, Petriix said:

I'll be happy just to see a few wins and something vaguely coherent unfolding on the pitch.

A goal at the Carra' would be a good start.

4 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

The problem has been the ownership ... some fresh vision ... "is needed"

The current aim is that Attanasio's fresh pair of eyes will effect significant change - it will be evolutionary though, patience here is required too.

4 hours ago, Petriix said:

The truth is that our budget actually matched the competition in our last relegation season. The money was just very badly spent. 

This is indeed true (as Ethics has pointed out ad nauseum). It's just very few accept it! The lack of governance over spending decisions I believe is the reason for the poor outcome. But Nutty will no doubt give me another kicking over this belief.

3 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

The simple fact is that due to how modern football works be if for better or worse our current ownership model and funding scheme will never allow us to stay in the top flight for more than a season at best.

It's not that simple a fact. As Petriix has stated a degree of patience and adherence to the basic principles of our current model, assisted by good governance by the Board on Executive delivery of the model, will potentially still prove effective (the idea of incremental growth etc. mooted by others on here).

2 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

the decisions not to renovate the city stand at times when building costs and materials were relatively low to make the capacity larger

In hindsight this is beginning to be one of the poorer decisions of the Board, the model requires incremental revenue growth but they are now prevented from achieving this easily without a degree of external help (which is against the model). The only hope here is that the revamped Colney Academy can replace the funds lost by not doing this - the signs at present are sketchy.

2 hours ago, ridgeman said:

if Webber had listened to Farke and gone for quality over quantity the outcome might have been different

Or the Board had the right level of governance oversight the policy pursued by Webber may have been questioned more strongly and Farke's route may have been taken?

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

Embracing the yoyo nature of our existence makes it easier to come to terms with the reality of supporting a club of our size.

Can't argue with that either Ricardo, but IMO the Board could have done more to iron out the yo-yo.

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

What is missed out of that little paragraph is the head coach

Oh do shut up LDC, a proper contribution here would have been welcomed.

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I think it's too simple to blame it all on lack of money.

Absolutely agree.

21 minutes ago, Badger said:

we are doing pretty well for a club our size and that clubs with gates in the mid 20,000s do not stay in the EPL beyond a few years at best.

This is true and the new reality. A club with the income generated from a 35,000 + stadia however ....

I'm not as pessimistic as some on here about the current position however. The ownership issue is a red herring at the moment if Attanasio's presence at Board level starts to lead to them asking the right questions. We are potentially in the last throes of Smith & Jones complete control over such matters, the decision to not at the very least put Webber on gardening leave is the last such "emotional" response we will see from the Board. A lot of people may not like some of the decisions that will emerge in future months and years but things will inevitiably change. Like Ricky and Badge, we are in the trough of a yo-yo period, let's hope we have not reached the bottom and with patience on all parts begin to see a stabilisation and upswing.

Edited July 17, 2023 by shefcanary

[pete 319]

My take on our position taken by Webber, instead of looking for any gems in the EFL lower reaches he fails to even consider L2 & 3.  There are potential gems to be found and nurtured there.  We will never look for them whilst Webber handles recruitment.  Also looking for coaching talent there rather than your favourites.  

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Our issue lies with the split fan base.

Two camps sit somewhere around here.

1) dreamers / idiots 

Feel we should be established premier League don't understand why we are not. General sentiment is buy big spend lots after all they achieved it on FIFA and Fm23. New owners regardless of who and would rather sell the clubs soul than spend another minute in the championship. Feel the drum is important and gets a atmosphere going. Generally calls Adam idah crap and pronounces his name Eeedaaar. Clueless as a whole or clueless a55 hole both terms correct.

2) realists / real fans 

Here for a good day out and don't mind if we are spanking Liverpool or S****horpe just so long as we get 90 mins attacking football and entertainment. Hates the drum loves the family feel at the club and happy to have Delia at the helm. Generally understands football and can pronounce Giannoulis correctly or even just call him Dimi or Mitsu. Literate and can spell thier own names without calling for mum or wife.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Nexus_Canary

[Indy 3,300]

18 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

That is the problem from a fan's perspective in a nutshell. But it was ever thus!

I agree with this statement too!

A goal at the Carra' would be a good start.

The current aim is that Attanasio's fresh pair of eyes will effect significant change - it will be evolutionary though, patience here is required too.

This is indeed true (as Ethics has pointed out ad nauseum). It's just very few accept it! The lack of governance over spending decisions I believe is the reason for the poor outcome. But Nutty will no doubt give me another kicking over this belief.

It's not that simple a fact. As Petriix has stated a degree of patience and adherence to the basic principles of our current model, assisted by good governance by the Board on Executive delivery of the model, will potentially still prove effective (the idea of incremental growth etc. mooted by others on here).

In hindsight this is beginning to be one of the poorer decisions of the Board, the model requires incremental revenue growth but they are now prevented from achieving this easily without a degree of external help (which is against the model). The only hope here is that the revamped Colney Academy can replace the funds lost by not doing this - the signs at present are sketchy.

Or the Board had the right level of governance oversight the policy pursued by Webber may have been questioned more strongly and Farke's route may have been taken?

Can't argue with that either Ricardo, but IMO the Board could have done more to iron out the yo-yo.

Oh do shut up LDC, a proper contribution here would have been welcomed.

Absolutely agree.

This is true and the new reality. A club with the income generated from a 35,000 + stadia however ....

I'm not as pessimistic as some on here about the current position however. The ownership issue is a red herring at the moment if Attanasio's presence at Board level starts to lead to them asking the right questions. We are potentially in the last throes of Smith & Jones complete control over such matters, the decision to not at the very least put Webber on gardening leave is the last such "emotional" response we will see from the Board. A lot of people may not like some of the decisions that will emerge in future months and years but things will inevitiably change. Like Ricky and Badge, we are in the trough of a yo-yo period, let's hope we have not reached the bottom and with patience on all parts begin to see a stabilisation and upswing.

Nice response Sheff, as ever football is always a feel good industry, it’s a community focus group who come together to watch and want the best for their colours and club!

The truth is it’s not the clubs who should be criticised maybe football itself is in need of an overhaul? Money shouldn’t be the driver and FFP tries to control it but in reality doesn’t.

Until the fundamentals of football change the big money clubs will win everything and the rest just survive!

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

A good OP. I think it is best to look forward, but as far as the horror show that was the last Premier League season goes I suspect Webber took to heart the old Einstein maxim about doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result.

In crude terms Farke and Farkeball had got us embarrasingly relegated in bottom place the first time around, and we were heading for the same humiliation. So a bit of panic and out went the head coach and their footballing philosophy.

It didn't work, but I see zero evidence to back up a view forcibly expressed here that if there is some kind of purist Norwich City way of playing then it has been permanently ditched.

As to money, some posters have said too much emphasis is placed - as an excuse - on the fact that we are paupers. One line was that Webber made good decisions in the past even though we had no money.

True, but the point about being poor (but honest) is that pretty much every significant decision made by the club has to be right. And that simply never happens in any business. Even mega-succesful companies with genius executives screw it up.

But they, and the mega-rich clubs we are in competition with, have a financial safety net we don't possess. If we get it wrong then it costs us, literally.

[hogesar 9,676]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I think it's too simple to blame it all on lack of money. We didn't have any money when Webber was making good decisions.

Thing is, I can't name or think of a single CEO or Sporting Director in the history of football who's been able to consistently perform miracles with no money, for a long period of time. 

I'm struggling to name too many who have even with a lot of money. One or two perhaps in the country.

[Serinus canaria 14]

@Petriix hi Petriix. I have been a long term reader of the forum and really enjoyed this post so decided to chip in. I think you've hit the nail on the head, and agree with a lot of the comments too.

Going further back as well, I have generally felt that NCFC for the last 12-13 years have been performing close to their natural ceiling. Given our size and backing, the odds are firmly stacked against us staying in the PL beyond a season or two. The only real way I see of doing it is by improving incrementally as you say. Arguably our biggest missed opportunity was 2013/2014 when we appointed (and then stuck with Chris Hughton). We have also never been particularly good at having money to spend (think RvW, Naismith, Tzolis), but that is partly because - as Webber has pointed out - spending £10 million in the PL basically just allows us to take a punt on someone. The gulf between the EFL and the EPL (in quality and finances) has gotten wider each year as well.

I personally don't see the ownership and model as the problem but see the state of football on the whole as the problem, something that will get worse before it (hopefully) gets better. I do like the fact that we have tried to be self sustainable, despite the pain when we reach our limits. The recent PL years were miserable, although I sometimes suspect with a bit more luck we would not have been so badly adrift in 2019/2020. I can see why some do see it as the problem, as it essentially embodies our ceiling, but I think given our size, funds and history we do outperform where we should be.

I worry we are in a difficult place now - probably still paying for our gambles in the 2021 summer window - and are unlikely to trouble the PL any time soon. We spent a lot on Sargent, Tzolis and Rashica and overall they are all worth a lot less now but probably costing a fair bit in wages. The legacy of infrastructure improvements (although no substitute for success on the pitch) should hopefully allow us a decent enough platform to build on in the future once we have shifted our big earners.

In terms of problems that were more avoidable in recent times:
- The sudden change in communication towards fans and media was a benefit to nobody and has done a lot of damage to the atmosphere around the club. Dean Smith's communications were also strange and he suffered due to his own lack of engagement with the fan base.

- Carrow Road is probably a great away day for the visiting team - nice pitch, docile atmosphere. In a game of fine margins, I don't think the atmosphere at CR has helped the team as much as it could (without wanting to open the chicken-and-egg debate about what should create a good atmosphere). 

- The 2021 summer window. I can see what they were trying to do but it was a gamble that did not work and, as mentioned before, we are still paying for it. We took a lot of expensive punts that really all had to pay off and none of them did. Over the past few years we have gone from a relatively cheap squad of motivated misfit gems, to a more expensive set of underperforming players that are hard to move on and probably sets the tone around the team.

- Change in the transfer market/Brexit. I think Webber/Farke/NCFC were great at picking out low-risk hidden gems from the Bundesliga and so on. Maybe we will see some success in the South American markets but it does feel like the European bargains was a comparative strength we had that got closed off to us.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Serinus canaria

[essex canary 496]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

You could have tried to read some of of the words I wrote. It's hardly pro-Webber. I'm not blaming the fans for anything in the past, just suggesting that the biggest current issue is that there's a collective sense of entitlement which doesn't reflect reality. The reality being that Webber totally ****ed up the squad so now we're back to square one(ish).

Yes (sort of). But stop pretending that new ownership = sustained investment. There are many clubs which have been bought, laden with debt, failed on the pitch and fallen into decline. Just take a brief look at League One.

Webber should have understood that his hands were tied and not tried to assemble a new squad for a new system on an impossible small budget. It's a bit like selling a 3 bedroom house in Norwich and trying to buy somewhere in London with the only thing you can afford being a run-down one bedroom flat in a shady estate.

The truth is that our budget actually matched the competition in our last relegation season. The money was just very badly spent. 

The original post was a great read and largely accurate. Why blame it all on Stu though? Aren't other Board Members responsible? Why is Stu's Executive Director missus unable to write some inspiring Programme Notes a la Neil Doncaster?

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

53 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Thing is, I can't name or think of a single CEO or Sporting Director in the history of football who's been able to consistently perform miracles with no money, for a long period of time. 

I'm struggling to name too many who have even with a lot of money. One or two perhaps in the country.

Webber has an impossible job. It can be done successfully in the short term but as Southampton found out last year it always ends eventually. 

It's one of the reasons I smile when I hear moans about a lack of "investment" in Norwich City. In my mind an 'investment' is carried out with a view to a profit. Anyone who thinks it's possible to make money out of Norwich City needs to give their head a bit of a wobble. Just to keep us in the Premier League for 10 years would cost someone around £700m. It's not going to happen unless the Americans buy control and then sell on to the Saudis. 

[ZLF 274]

Fundamentally our annual budget is large enough to be challenging for promotion out of the champs each season,   the bigger challenge is to ensure we have the right squad skills and tactics to deliver, with the latter missing from smith and wagner last year, along with a squad that carries injuries to the experienced squad members

 

The squad shape seems better from an experience point of view, although valid concerns remain at both ends of the pitch with cdm, creativity and goal scorer concerns, although these could be overstated come the season end.

 

The club is well placed but the key appt of coach has remaining questions about his ability to challenge together with gaps in the squad make it an uncertain season, when a solid season is needed.

   

Longer term a new sd appt is key, although the core structure seems sound but finding the right fit should be possible.

 

 

 

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

And if we do have a poor start and it gets toxic, what does it matter to Webber? He has a scapegoat ready and he'll just sack Wagner. And if he gets the Leeds job or something at a similar level, he'll just walk away. No mud will stick to him outside of Norfolk.

I don't think Webber will sack Wagner. It doesn't look great on his CV to have had sacked 3 managers in quick succession as it doesn't say much about his decision making in the first place.

Hopefully we can get off to a good start and Wagner can buy a bit of time. I agree it will otherwise get toxic, and pretty quickly.

[hogesar 9,676]

17 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Webber has an impossible job. It can be done successfully in the short term but as Southampton found out last year it always ends eventually. 

It's one of the reasons I smile when I hear moans about a lack of "investment" in Norwich City. In my mind an 'investment' is carried out with a view to a profit. Anyone who thinks it's possible to make money out of Norwich City needs to give their head a bit of a wobble. Just to keep us in the Premier League for 10 years would cost someone around £700m. It's not going to happen unless the Americans buy control and then sell on to the Saudis. 

Yes, I think you're right. It's why without a Norwich-fan billionaire (See Brightons owner Tony Bloom for the absolute perfect example) it doesn't surprise me there's not been much legitimate interest in us as a club. I know some fans don't like to hear it and don't believe our current owners' but I'd be surprised if there's been many rich individuals with good intentions interested in buying us.

However, I do think because our current owners genuinely care about the club that the next owners are likely to get it for less than market value and they will have the opportunity to make a profit by selling it to whoever the next highest bidder turns out to be. It leaves us with very little security as a club and absolutely zero guarantee of us even maintaining our current level as Championship yo-yo; but for some it seems to be worth the risk.

[Serinus Canaria Domestica 42]

1 hour ago, Serinus canaria said:

@Petriix hi Petriix. I have been a long term reader of the forum and really enjoyed this post so decided to chip in. I think you've hit the nail on the head, and agree with a lot of the comments too.

Going further back as well, I have generally felt that NCFC for the last 12-13 years have been performing close to their natural ceiling. Given our size and backing, the odds are firmly stacked against us staying in the PL beyond a season or two. The only real way I see of doing it is by improving incrementally as you say. Arguably our biggest missed opportunity was 2013/2014 when we appointed (and then stuck with Chris Hughton). We have also never been particularly good at having money to spend (think RvW, Naismith, Tzolis), but that is partly because - as Webber has pointed out - spending £10 million in the PL basically just allows us to take a punt on someone. The gulf between the EFL and the EPL (in quality and finances) has gotten wider each year as well.

I personally don't see the ownership and model as the problem but see the state of football on the whole as the problem, something that will get worse before it (hopefully) gets better. I do like the fact that we have tried to be self sustainable, despite the pain when we reach our limits. The recent PL years were miserable, although I sometimes suspect with a bit more luck we would not have been so badly adrift in 2019/2020. I can see why some do see it as the problem, as it essentially embodies our ceiling, but I think given our size, funds and history we do outperform where we should be.

I worry we are in a difficult place now - probably still paying for our gambles in the 2021 summer window - and are unlikely to trouble the PL any time soon. We spent a lot on Sargent, Tzolis and Rashica and overall they are all worth a lot less now but probably costing a fair bit in wages. The legacy of infrastructure improvements (although no substitute for success on the pitch) should hopefully allow us a decent enough platform to build on in the future once we have shifted our big earners.

In terms of problems that were more avoidable in recent times:
- The sudden change in communication towards fans and media was a benefit to nobody and has done a lot of damage to the atmosphere around the club. Dean Smith's communications were also strange and he suffered due to his own lack of engagement with the fan base.

- Carrow Road is probably a great away day for the visiting team - nice pitch, docile atmosphere. In a game of fine margins, I don't think the atmosphere at CR has helped the team as much as it could (without wanting to open the chicken-and-egg debate about what should create a good atmosphere). 

- The 2021 summer window. I can see what they were trying to do but it was a gamble that did not work and, as mentioned before, we are still paying for it. We took a lot of expensive punts that really all had to pay off and none of them did. Over the past few years we have gone from a relatively cheap squad of motivated misfit gems, to a more expensive set of underperforming players that are hard to move on and probably sets the tone around the team.

- Change in the transfer market/Brexit. I think Webber/Farke/NCFC were great at picking out low-risk hidden gems from the Bundesliga and so on. Maybe we will see some success in the South American markets but it does feel like the European bargains was a comparative strength we had that got closed off to us.

Hi near namesake! Great post, excellent moniker.

[Highland Canary 76]

Complacency. Self-righteousness. Lack of ambition. Losing mentality.

[hogesar 9,676]

5 minutes ago, Highland Canary said:

Complacency. Self-righteousness. Lack of ambition. Losing mentality.

Yeah but enough about you.

What's your thoughts on the club?

[Barham Blitz 653]

6 hours ago, Petriix said:

The truth is that our budget actually matched the competition in our last relegation season. The money was just very badly spent. 

To be fair, it should also be pointed out that the budget in question was essentially generated by selling our most fundamental / important player.

Although it was indeed then very badly spent ...

Great OP by the way - agree with pretty much all of it ... especially this element -

 

13 hours ago, Petriix said:

I think the true value of the team was in the underlying philosophy and cohesion rather than the individuals, that is excepting the three mentioned above. What we did very well was to allow the strengths to shine while mitigating the weaknesses.

[...]

The mistake was a failure to recognise, value and build on the true roots of the success. We achieve so much with so little money yet, when the coffers were filled, we lost sight of the bigger picture and blew the lot for what amounted to a backwards step.

The amount of money required to sustain top flight football (ie. buying / retaining players good enough to carry on the Farkeball which gets us promoted, or indeed binning them all off and replacing them with a team of marathon-sprinting cruiserweights who have a passing acquaintance with a football) is so enormous now that I'm not sure that you can really base a plan on retaining  Premiership status.  Look at the money the likes of Forest have had to spend to stay up.  Look at the amounts of money that various clubs have spent to still not manage it.   

Which is why I was and am completely ok with the Top 26 aspiration as long as we see incremental progress in terms of the playing squad - by developing young players and / or trading them to reinvest in the squad and some decent football.  What I was not ok with was suddenly ripping up the template in a vain (and i use that term in both senses with reference to our outgoing SD) attempt to stay up at all costs which was pretty much doomed to failure from the outset and has undone all of the good work over the past 4-5 years.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Yes, I think the downward trajectory is very important and is going to be a serious drag even if we start making good decisions again. A poor start to the season and things could get very toxic very quickly.

 

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

And if we do have a poor start and it gets toxic, what does it matter to Webber? He has a scapegoat ready and he'll just sack Wagner. And if he gets the Leeds job or something at a similar level, he'll just walk away. No mud will stick to him outside of Norfolk.

Not a ball kicked in the new season and you're already talking up getting rid of yet another manager. It almost seems like you enjoy trying to get people sacked more than football itself.

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not a ball kicked in the new season and you're already talking up getting rid of yet another manager. It almost seems like you enjoy trying to get people sacked more than football itself.

I'm not sure there is anything remiss about discussing the prospect of sacking a manager who ended the previous season with 1 win in 11, and zero home goals since February, particularly when said manager was in charge of one of the most valuable squads in the league.

[BigFish 1,987]

6 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

Which is why I was and am completely ok with the Top 26 aspiration as long as we see incremental progress in terms of the playing squad - by developing young players and / or trading them to reinvest in the squad and some decent football.  What I was not ok with was suddenly ripping up the template in a vain (and i use that term in both senses with reference to our outgoing SD) attempt to stay up at all costs which was pretty much doomed to failure from the outset and has undone all of the good work over the past 4-5 years.

Pretty much this. The fundamental problem is for many fans this is nor enough. The whole point of the SD model is you should be able to remove the coach and leave the fundamentals in place. Or, for that matter you should also be able to remove the SD and leave the fundamentals in place. Unfortunately for the coherence of my arguments with @shefcanary that requires a DoF who isn't wedded to either and doesn't get involved in the football detail.

Even if we get back to the Prem we will always be one bad window away from relegation. Same goes for probably twenty other clubs but the point I think @Barham Blitz is making is we need to be working to a consistent plan.

[Midlands Yellow 3,986]

2 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Our issue lies with the split fan base.

Two camps sit somewhere around here.

1) dreamers / idiots 

Feel we should be established premier League don't understand why we are not. General sentiment is buy big spend lots after all they achieved it on FIFA and Fm23. New owners regardless of who and would rather sell the clubs soul than spend another minute in the championship. Feel the drum is important and gets a atmosphere going. Generally calls Adam idah crap and pronounces his name Eeedaaar. Clueless as a whole or clueless a55 hole both terms correct.

2) realists / real fans 

Here for a good day out and don't mind if we are spanking Liverpool or S****horpe just so long as we get 90 mins attacking football and entertainment. Hates the drum loves the family feel at the club and happy to have Delia at the helm. Generally understands football and can pronounce Giannoulis correctly or even just call him Dimi or Mitsu. Literate and can spell thier own names without calling for mum or wife.

 

 

 

Group 2 sound an exciting bunch to be around. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

25 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm not sure there is anything remiss about discussing the prospect of sacking a manager who ended the previous season with 1 win in 11, and zero home goals since February, particularly when said manager was in charge of one of the most valuable squads in the league.

Your argument is exactly why I think Wagner should have gone over the Summer. It's clearly futile to try to fly in the face of people who've already made their mind up and will just keep pushing their negativity until they get their own way.  

Still, seeing as he hasn't gone, I wish him the best.

Edited July 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

37 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

To be fair, it should also be pointed out that the budget in question was essentially generated by selling our most fundamental / important player.

Although it was indeed then very badly spent ...

Great OP by the way - agree with pretty much all of it ... especially this element -

 

The amount of money required to sustain top flight football (ie. buying / retaining players good enough to carry on the Farkeball which gets us promoted, or indeed binning them all off and replacing them with a team of marathon-sprinting cruiserweights who have a passing acquaintance with a football) is so enormous now that I'm not sure that you can really base a plan on retaining  Premiership status.  Look at the money the likes of Forest have had to spend to stay up.  Look at the amounts of money that various clubs have spent to still not manage it.   

Which is why I was and am completely ok with the Top 26 aspiration as long as we see incremental progress in terms of the playing squad - by developing young players and / or trading them to reinvest in the squad and some decent football.  What I was not ok with was suddenly ripping up the template in a vain (and i use that term in both senses with reference to our outgoing SD) attempt to stay up at all costs which was pretty much doomed to failure from the outset and has undone all of the good work over the past 4-5 years.

 

I think that is generally accepted. That said, I am not sure everything has been wasted, and I certainly don't hold with the extremist view that somehow the damage is permanent, so the club can never go back to the organic living-within-our-means model and to a pure footballing philosophy.

[Barham Blitz 653]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think that is generally accepted. That said, I am not sure everything has been wasted, and I certainly don't hold with the extremist view that somehow the damage is permanent, so the club can never go back to the organic living-within-our-means model and to a pure footballing philosophy.

Fair point - but my issue was that it was an abrupt change of tack which has made the whole process that much unnecessarily harder.  It was definitely listening to the noise rather than ignoring it and has cost the club in lots of ways.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Your argument is exactly why I think Wagner should have gone over the Summer. It's clearly futile to try to fly in the face of people who've already made their mind up and will just keep pushing their negativity until they get their own way.  

Still, seeing as he hasn't gone, I wish him the best.

I also think he should have gone in the summer, not for the stupid reason that because he gets flak on an internet forum and social media, but because he did not make any improvement from the pitiful levels we had fallen to under Smith.

However, he's not gone so I'm fully behind him turning it around, as are 99% of Norwich supporters, even those who felt the same regarding his continuing at the club. The idea that there are people out there who would be annoyed if we had a good season because they'd be proven wrong about Wagner is tin-foil hat territory.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

6 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

Fair point - but my issue was that it was an abrupt change of tack which has made the whole process that much unnecessarily harder.  It was definitely listening to the noise rather than ignoring it and has cost the club in lots of ways.

I agree with that.

[Indy 3,300]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm not sure there is anything remiss about discussing the prospect of sacking a manager who ended the previous season with 1 win in 11, and zero home goals since February, particularly when said manager was in charge of one of the most valuable squads in the league.

Oh no you bit! that's this thread derailed into a oncoming spat! 😂

[Midlands Yellow 3,986]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Your argument is exactly why I think Wagner should have gone over the Summer. It's clearly futile to try to fly in the face of people who've already made their mind up and will just keep pushing their negativity until they get their own way.  

Still, seeing as he hasn't gone, I wish him the best.

Too right, get Deano back. 

[BigFish 1,987]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think that is generally accepted. That said, I am not sure everything has been wasted, and I certainly don't hold with the extremist view that somehow the damage is permanent, so the club can never go back to the organic living-within-our-means model and to a pure footballing philosophy.

 

8 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

Fair point - but my issue was that it was an abrupt change of tack which has made the whole process that much unnecessarily harder.  It was definitely listening to the noise rather than ignoring it and has cost the club in lots of ways.

Certainly a lot hyperbole flying around and there is work to be done unpicking some of the mistakes but the fundamentals of the club remain sound and there is visible progress. New investment is being worked through and the squad has a greater solidity. Optimistic that a Top 6 finish is not an unrealistic ambition. We could certainly do with a season of stability.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

Not a ball kicked in the new season and you're already talking up getting rid of yet another manager. It almost seems like you enjoy trying to get people sacked more than football itself.

If you read carefully, you may notice that I am not advocating getting rid of another manager; I am merely stating the mood around the club will get very bad. I don't see this statement as controversial at all as a prediction for what lies ahead in the event of a poor start to the season.