My best guess as to what Wagner is thinking...

[Sooty57 403]

I would imagine he's thinking "I hope Leeds don't batter us too heavily when Daniel comes back down here, or I will look a proper numpty"

[Mengo 825]

14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Sure he has, and same number of starts too, right?

For a guy that needs gametime it's pretty ****.  Not one start, and just 12 mins today.... But even then he nearly got through on goal to score in that time.

é muito merda, com certeza

 

 

[Terminally Yellow 2,469]

26 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Sure he has, and same number of starts too, right?

 

For a guy that needs gametime it's pretty ****.  Not one start, not one game played over 45 mins, and just 12 mins today.

Even then he nearly got through on goal to score in the measly time offered today.

What about the 13 appearances he had last season? Or the loan to Twente - where he played 10 times? Or the 14 appearances in the Premier League the season before?

What exactly does he need before you will consider he has had "gametime"? 

Why is it that you think him "nearly getting through on goal" means he deserves game time more than Placheta, Rowe and Onel at this time of the season?

[Terminally Yellow 2,469]

15 minutes ago, Sooty57 said:

I would imagine he's thinking "I hope Leeds don't batter us too heavily when Daniel comes back down here, or I will look a proper numpty"

I would expect Daniel Farke has never even entered his mind.

Something I can't say about people on here who are obsessed. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,469]

30 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Sure he has, and same number of starts too, right?

 

For a guy that needs gametime it's pretty ****.  Not one start, not one game played over 45 mins, and just 12 mins today.

Even then he nearly got through on goal to score in the measly time offered today.

And wait have you actually made a ****ing spreadsheet about this?! Obsessive.

[ged in the onion bag 856]

2 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

I don’t think it’s a mess, it’s the climb out of the hole, the beginning of the new journey…

Just not seeing it at all.     Given the money we’ve spent and the upward trajectory we had, this squad is just so uninspiring.   Our main men at the end of last season were Hanley, Gibson and McLean since ‘we missed them’ apparently.   We’ve replaced Hanley and Aarons, we’ve not replaced Pukki, have no creativity, limited goal threat and no guile and athleticism in central midfield.    
 

That hole you mentioned, we aren’t climbing out, we’re still digging.    

Edited July 15, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Google Bot 3,294]

7 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

And wait have you actually made a ****ing spreadsheet about this?! Obsessive.

Nothing to do with being obsessive, I'd rather spend 5 minutes displaying the point I'm making than getting drawn into gutter level chat with people playing to the gallery.

[Danke bitte 967]

46 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

That hole you mentioned, we aren’t climbing out, we’re still digging.    

This is very poetic Ged, but if you think of the last few years we’ve well and truly fkd it. There’s no getting away from that. In my eyes I feel we have to temper our expectations- we’re effectively starting again. Albeit with a much better academy and training facility than we had before Webber arrived. 

We’ve dipped in and out of the top flight since Hughton was in charge with little consistency. Now we are where we are, a platform for change in the long term from really Ground Zero. 

You yourself have been an advocate for youth development and club refinement over the past few seasons and now we face it and I feel you’re now worried about our immediate return to the Prem? 

My concern is not with the immediate return to the PL but with the patience of whoever steps into the Head Coach role from now (Inc Wagner) to create and maintain a brand of football which appeases our fickle fan base. Either ensuring we future proof the identity of our football brand  but also providing youth from our academy an opportunity to prove themselves in our first team given we’ve worked so hard to create a youth development platform that’s considered one of the best in the country. 

I currently see a fanbase heady on past experiences over a crazy few seasons we were all lucky to experience (bar the past 2) coupled with an expectation we don’t dip below consistent mid table mediocrity that we were known for before Lambert.

And rightly so. 

We all want better than the last few seasons, and I think, arrogantly, we deserve it. Again, and going back to your original point, I don’t think we’re digging rather we’re starting again albeit with a coach that was hamstrung last season, judged on a team that wasn’t his and wholly unfit to play his brand of football now faced with plotting a course with the support of a DoF that is leaving and probably mentally signed out now. I don’t envy Wagner but we have to admire his resolve, he’s trying to implement a way forward with a fanbase still raw with losing Farke and angry at watching rivals nestle themselves in the Premier League whilst watching their club flounder and stand still. 

I appreciate this has been a ramble and ultimately hasn’t really answered a question but that still lies with Wagner and whether he can motivate his retinue to kick on. I do believe however that we, as fans, need to appreciate we are back at a place we haven’t experienced properly in some time no matter how hard it is to swallow…

Edited July 15, 2023 by Danke bitte

[Danke bitte 967]

39 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Nothing to do with being obsessive, I'd rather spend 5 minutes displaying the point I'm making than getting drawn into gutter level chat with people playing to the gallery.

Kudos to you and your spreader. It makes for quick digestible viewing rather than the fk ton ****e I just drivelled to @ged in the onion bag. I can’t argue with a confident man and spreadsheet. 

[Yobocop 1,104]

13 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Kudos to you and your spreader. It makes for quick digestible viewing rather than the fk ton ****e I just drivelled to @ged in the onion bag. I can’t argue with a confident man and spreadsheet. 

This is where I’m at. Fair play to google for spending time analysing it rather than the puerile bull crâp that some post on here with no real substance other than their complete disdain and negativity towards the club 

No getting away from the fact last year was terrible but you got to give Wagner a chance with his squad and preseason to really judge, we’ll know by October what sort of season we’re going to have but not now 

[ged in the onion bag 856]

12 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

This is very poetic Ged, but if you think of the last few years we’ve well and truly fkd it. There’s no getting away from that. In my eyes I feel we have to temper our expectations- we’re effectively starting again. Albeit with a much better academy and training facility than we had before Webber arrived. 

We’ve dipped in and out of the top flight since Hughton was in charge with little consistency. Now we are where we are, a platform for change in the long term from really Ground Zero. 

You yourself have been an advocate for youth development and club refinement over the past few seasons and now we face it and I feel you’re now worried about our immediate return to the Prem? 

My concern is not with the immediate return to the PL but with the patience of whoever steps into the Head Coach role from now (Inc Wagner) to create and maintain a brand of football which appeases our fickle fan base. Either ensuring we future proof the identity of our football brand  but also providing youth from our academy an opportunity to prove themselves in our first team given we’ve worked so hard to create a youth development platform that’s considered one of the best in the country. 

I currently see a fanbase heady on past experiences over a crazy few seasons we were all lucky to experience (bar the past 2) coupled with an expectation we don’t dip below consistent mid table mediocrity that we were known for before Lambert.

And rightly so. 

We all want better than the last few seasons, and I think, arrogantly, we deserve it. Again, and going back to your original point, I don’t think we’re digging rather we’re starting again albeit with a coach that was hamstrung last season, judged on a team that wasn’t his and wholly unfit to play his brand of football now faced with plotting a course with the support of a DoF that is leaving and probably mentally signed out now. I don’t envy Wagner but we have to admire his resolve, he’s trying to implement a way forward with a fanbase still raw with losing Farke and angry at watching rivals nestle themselves in the Premier League whilst watching their club flounder and stand still. 

I appreciate this has been a ramble and ultimately hasn’t really answered a question but that still lies with Wagner and whether he can motivate his retinue to kick on. I do believe however that we, as fans, need to appreciate we are back at a place we haven’t experienced properly in some time no matter how hard it is to swallow…

I suspect we share the same or similar views generally.     Not sure what you mean re this…. I feel you’re now worried about our immediate return to the Prem?’

We need to develop as you suggest but that requires opportunity, that requires bravery of the manager and above all patience.     That’s not going to happen if we strive for immediate promotion with a weak squad… the youngsters quickly get sidelined.  
 

The quality of our facilities is irrelevant if the coaching isn’t good enough…

It requires that our coaches can get the most from these players but are they doing that?    Springett, Tzolis, Sargent, Idah, McCallum, Sorenson, Platcheta, etc….. are any of them improving?   I’m not seeing it.    Why not?     But overall, they’ve hardly had a decent run in the team.   

Even Gibbs and Omobamidele seem to have plateaued.

[Google Bot 3,294]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

That hole you mentioned, we aren’t climbing out, we’re still digging.

We've not even got into the spending part of this window though.  Sainz, Duffy, Stacey and Barnes have been all free signings, and it's likely money is coming in from at least the sales of Aarons and Rashica.  It could be that we spend £10m in this window as yet.

Rather than being in a period of digging, this feels more of a systematic review taking account of which player combinations work, and in what system.  My only concern, as above, that we're becoming to focused on bringing in physical attributes at the cost of ball players and thinkers.

[pete 320]

In the words of Fall Out Boy.

THIS AIN'T A REBUILD ITS A ******** SHEETSHOW.   

[ged in the onion bag 856]

6 hours ago, Google Bot said:

We've not even got into the spending part of this window though.  Sainz, Duffy, Stacey and Barnes have been all free signings, and it's likely money is coming in from at least the sales of Aarons and Rashica.  It could be that we spend £10m in this window as yet.

Rather than being in a period of digging, this feels more of a systematic review taking account of which player combinations work, and in what system.  My only concern, as above, that we're becoming to focused on bringing in physical attributes at the cost of ball players and thinkers.

Why bother to comment.   I’m talking about the present tense ‘still digging’.    You are talking about something that ‘might’ happen in the future….. I say might as we’ve sold no one and if we do bring in players whose to say they will be any good (remember Sargent, Tzolis, Rashica, Gilmour, Lees-Melou, Giannoulis, Nunez, Hayden) etc….   None of the 4 new signings have improved this squad if we lose Aaron’s and we haven’t replaced Pukki.

 

and if we did chase promotion again, it will be at the expense of development so we won’t have a capable team for purpose…. Let’s face it, Duffy and Barnes are here because EPL teams think they aren’t up to that level anymore.    We’ve literally two players who are proved at that level, Aaron’s and Gunn.  We’re way off even thinking about promotion.   

[BroadstairsR 2,184]

8 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I would expect Daniel Farke has never even entered his mind.

Something I can't say about people on here who are obsessed. 

I, for one, am totally obsessed.

It was the last time we saw decent football. Football with a distinct style.

Forget our PL disasters. He was unarmed and didn't stand a chance. 

 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

10 hours ago, hogesar said:

Tzolis has had around the same minutes as the rest of our wide players. And looked less threatening than most of them.

I think Google Bot's point is that running around like a blue-a*sed fly may look impressive but very little is achieved for all that energy. Vrançic and Dowell were two players who were often criticised for being laid-back but they could do more in one pass than someone like Hernandez usually manages in ninety frenetic minutes. Under Wagner I'm worried that our side is trying to replace technical skill with endless, pointless running around. Our skillful players are gone or going. Tzolis would have fitted very well into a Farke team IMO (after he was forgiven for the penalty incident). There was no place for him under the useless and lazy Smith, who you supported almost to the very end although you now try to rewrite history on that point, and I can't see him having much future under Wagner. 

[hogesar 9,704]

10 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Sure he has, and same number of starts too, right?

 

For a guy that needs gametime it's pretty ****.  Not one start, not one game played over 45 mins, and just 12 mins today.

Even then he nearly got through on goal to score in the measly time offered today.

So taking away yesterday's friendly he's basically had the same game time as the rest of them, yeah? Within a few minutes. 

In those games he was given plenty of space against Barnet and missed two one-on-ones. Against Kings Lynn he looked half as effective as bl*ody Placheta.

It's pre season so I don't know why you're putting any value towards if he starts or not. It's just about getting minutes in.

And so far he's done less to impress than the other wingers.

[hogesar 9,704]

34 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

I think Google Bot's point is that running around like a blue-a*sed fly may look impressive but very little is achieved for all that energy. Vrançic and Dowell were two players who were often criticised for being laid-back but they could do more in one pass than someone like Hernandez usually manages in ninety frenetic minutes. Under Wagner I'm worried that our side is trying to replace technical skill with endless, pointless running around. Our skillful players are gone or going. Tzolis would have fitted very well into a Farke team IMO (after he was forgiven for the penalty incident). There was no place for him under the useless and lazy Smith, who you supported almost to the very end although you now try to rewrite history on that point, and I can't see him having much future under Wagner. 

1) Tzolis may well have fitted into a Farke team but he delivered very little whilst Farke was here, got dumped and was awful since. Then went on loan and the loan club were delighted to send him back.

2) I'd love to see where I rewrite this history? Or are you simply making things up? I dont think I've really mentioned Smith for a long time because I'm not quite as obsessed as some of you about him. I think when he was linked to Wednesday I said it wouldn't surprise me if he done a decent job because I don't think he's a bad manager. I did say towards the end that he had to go but only because of the fan situation where it was never going to be recoverable.

On a side note I do remember being told endlessly that 100% guaranteed definitely any manager in the world would do better than Smith and I was an idiot for saying that might not end up being the case...

[lake district canary 4,539]

Trying to judge anything in pre-season is pretty difficult. We don't know who might be leaving - it could be Aarons and Omo and/or others - and we don't know who any players coming in might be. It's farcical that the transfer window doesn't finish until well into the season, but it is what it is, but is the main reason we can't make hard and fast judgements about  the team until a few weeks into the season.

[Badger 2,407]

12 hours ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

If we don’t sign a fit CDM this year then somebody’s not been doing their job- the rest is a fair assessment.

From what I have read, Wagner does not like to play with a dedicated CDM - he likes his midfield to rotate and therefore be more difficult to mark/ pick up. If this is correct, I doubt that we are even looking for a CDM.

[Soldier on 160]

The pinkun boys seem adamant a DCM not on the list 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

1) Tzolis may well have fitted into a Farke team but he delivered very little whilst Farke was here, got dumped and was awful since. Then went on loan and the loan club were delighted to send him back.

2) I'd love to see where I rewrite this history? Or are you simply making things up? I dont think I've really mentioned Smith for a long time because I'm not quite as obsessed as some of you about him. I think when he was linked to Wednesday I said it wouldn't surprise me if he done a decent job because I don't think he's a bad manager. I did say towards the end that he had to go but only because of the fan situation where it was never going to be recoverable.

On a side note I do remember being told endlessly that 100% guaranteed definitely any manager in the world would do better than Smith and I was an idiot for saying that might not end up being the case...

I'm not making things up. When I was advocating sacking Smith near the end of our last PL season, you responded to me again and again stating how wonderful he had been at Brentford, how well he had done at Villa, how his pragmatism was preferable to Farke's idealism, how he had developed Grealish (as if Grealish needed developing), and so on and so on. Then, when it finally became clear that Smith's position was untenable after he had wasted the World Cup break, you changed your tune within a week or two and agreed he should go. 

I read your position on Smith as very close to that of Webber - that he could no longer remain as manager but it was the pesky fans who failed to appreciate him rather than his own limitations that led to his downfall. I'm making assumptions about you here, so please tell me if I am wrong.

[Capt. Pants 4,260]

I have no idea what Wagner is thinking but judging by pre season so far he's given all the players a clean slate and each are getting minutes on the pitch.

At this stage it has to be about building fitness and once players tick that box he can then see who has something to offer. 

At the moment they all seem as much of a muchness with no stand out players. I think we're a long way off knowing the first XI.

I'm not expecting many more incomings; possibly a CB or 2 depending how bad Tomkinson's injury is and that's assuming Omo leaves, which is looking less likely now.

 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

5 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I have no idea what Wagner is thinking but judging by pre season so far he's given all the players a clean slate and each are getting minutes on the pitch.

At this stage it has to be about building fitness and once players tick that box he can then see who has something to offer. 

At the moment they all seem as much of a muchness with no stand out players. I think we're a long way off knowing the first XI.

I'm not expecting many more incomings; possibly a CB or 2 depending how bad Tomkinson's injury is and that's assuming Omo leaves, which is looking less likely now.

 

I agree with the much of a muchness, especially the wingers.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

18 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

I'm not making things up. When I was advocating sacking Smith near the end of our last PL season, you responded to me again and again stating how wonderful he had been at Brentford, how well he had done at Villa, how his pragmatism was preferable to Farke's idealism, how he had developed Grealish (as if Grealish needed developing), and so on and so on. Then, when it finally became clear that Smith's position was untenable after he had wasted the World Cup break, you changed your tune within a week or two and agreed he should go. 

I read your position on Smith as very close to that of Webber - that he could no longer remain as manager but it was the pesky fans who failed to appreciate him rather than his own limitations that led to his downfall. I'm making assumptions about you here, so please tell me if I am wrong.

Appreciation is the wrong word; the problem with people like you is that you refuse to give them the benefit of the doubt when there is plenty of room to look at things from both angles because you've assumed a position that you're determined to see borne out as 'right'. While we were showing the best form in the league and in the auto slots, you and others like you insisted that it was a 'false position' and it was all 'dross' (it wasn't; we were inconsistent). There was a refusal to even admit the positives, let alone embrace them. It's really no wonder that player morale was so poor.

Ironically, the experience over Smith has informed my view that the club is making a mistake hanging onto Wagner after the disappointing end to last season. Anything short of a start to the season that is outstanding both in terms of results and quality of play is going to lead to this season being plagued with the same cynical, jaded, and negative fans foisting their feelings on everyone else until they get their way.

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[shefcanary 2,426]

Think back to when 'Uddersfield under Wagner came to the Carra and completely outmuscled Norwich on the day to run out comfortable winners.

They didn't have a playmaker as such, although Mooy got plenty of time in the ball. They didn't even have a recognised striker. Their players that day have not gone on to be world beaters. Wagner just got them playing together as a hard working cohesive unit. 

As such, people looking for a creative spark are probably wasting energy. What we have to look forward to is Norwich grinding out victories through sheer hard work. Almost bullying teams into submission. No real stars, but working to a plan. The signs are beginning to shoe he is getting there.

Won't suit everyone ...

[Channon’s Windmill 327]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

From what I have read, Wagner does not like to play with a dedicated CDM - he likes his midfield to rotate and therefore be more difficult to mark/ pick up. If this is correct, I doubt that we are even looking for a CDM.

I guess we have to see how that goes then, our midfield has been so weak and easy to play through since Skipp departed I am not convinced. 

[hogesar 9,704]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I'm not making things up. When I was advocating sacking Smith near the end of our last PL season, you responded to me again and again stating how wonderful he had been at Brentford, how well he had done at Villa, how his pragmatism was preferable to Farke's idealism, how he had developed Grealish (as if Grealish needed developing), and so on and so on. Then, when it finally became clear that Smith's position was untenable after he had wasted the World Cup break, you changed your tune within a week or two and agreed he should go. 

I read your position on Smith as very close to that of Webber - that he could no longer remain as manager but it was the pesky fans who failed to appreciate him rather than his own limitations that led to his downfall. I'm making assumptions about you here, so please tell me if I am wrong.

You are making things up. Where in your explanation is this rewriting of history I'm doing? That I changed my mind is no rewriting and my reasons for it are my reasons. 

You've still not show a single example where I've rewritten history which on a forum is difficult anyway as our posting history is available so did I edit a load of posts or did I deny what I'd posted before somewhere? That would be cause for you to accuse me of rewriting my own posting history but you've not come close to showing me that.

I mean you also claimed some other things I never actually said to you in the above post but I can't be bothered to delve deeper if you can't prove the first accusation. 

[hogesar 9,704]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Think back to when 'Uddersfield under Wagner came to the Carra and completely outmuscled Norwich on the day to run out comfortable winners.

They didn't have a playmaker as such, although Mooy got plenty of time in the ball. They didn't even have a recognised striker. Their players that day have not gone on to be world beaters. Wagner just got them playing together as a hard working cohesive unit. 

As such, people looking for a creative spark are probably wasting energy. What we have to look forward to is Norwich grinding out victories through sheer hard work. Almost bullying teams into submission. No real stars, but working to a plan. The signs are beginning to shoe he is getting there.

Won't suit everyone ...

And that style, whether we like it or not, fared much better at least initially in the Premier. And that's with a Huddersfield who had even less to spend than we typically do. Perhaps if they had a bit more money they could have done better in a second season.

[Serinus Canaria Domestica 45]

As a boy of about 11, for Xmas, I received an Annual containing a story called the Linchester Leakers. A new coach took over the school team, kicked out the star centre forward, the archetypal big lad who played centre half etc etc and picked an eleven Jacks of all trades, well 10 since he still needed a goalie: the goalie probably could play out from the back but memory fails. This was written in about 1960…..

 

Well the team played with complete fluidity, hence the Leakers nickname. Naturally they trounced the opposition who had never seen anything like it and didn’t know who or where to mark. The stars were only allowed back once they had learned to play several positions.

 

It was fiction, pre dated Total Football, but has stuck with me for 60+ years. We obviously won’t be getting the fictional extrem but I wonder if this is the sort of fluidity that DW aspires to?