Who wants david Wagner as head coach?

[TheGunnShow 6,015]

My stance is pretty much the same for anyone who takes the job on. I'll let them have a couple or even three windows as ultimately that was what Farke got before it started ticking. I don't like the start so far, but the injury crisis to pretty much all of our leaders was a serious problem and I also get the impression that Smith / Shakespeare might have not quite got the fitness levels of the players quite up to speed.

The obvious exception to that is if he loses the dressing room. Even then, there's a caveat, namely he might lose a dressing room but the problem could be some of the characters in there (look at Manchester United now that the cancerous Pogba and Lingard are out of there). However, that's conjecture and I really wouldn't know if there are any such issues in there.

[Google Bot 3,327]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Objectively, Wagner's overall performance with the same group of playershas been far inferior to Smiths in terms of results.

Smith never had both CBs and Kenny out, and his results was as so: 

If we go like for like, and take Wagner's time with the same group of players available, that takes us to the Blackburn win:

 

I mean, one was taking us mid-table and other into top 6 form, so **** knows what you're on about mate.  The form was better despite the injuries already sustained due to Dowell and McLean.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Google Bot

[Walcombe canary 69]

He has got to be given This Summer Transfer Window & Pre Season, up until Xmas. The is more pressure on Stuart Webber. The Recruitment has to be good. 

[sonyc 5,541]

3 minutes ago, Walcombe canary said:

He has got to be given This Summer Transfer Window & Pre Season, up until Xmas. The is more pressure on Stuart Webber. The Recruitment has to be good. 

Agree with that. Things don't feel well starred at the present but some good additions and start to the new campaign will change everything. I'm not confident at all but just hope it all comes together. Wagner will need a solid start that's for sure.

Edited May 11, 2023 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,596]

6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Smith never had both CBs and Kenny out, and his results was as so: 

If we go like for like, and take Wagner's time with the same group of players available, that takes us to the Blackburn win:

 

I mean, one was taking us mid-table and other into top 6 form, so **** knows what you're on about mate.

So objectively, Smith's tenure had us 1.44 points per game (36 points over 25 games)  and Wagner's had us 1.23 points per game (26 points over 21 games). Backwards, not promoted, millions of pounds wasted sacking a manager for no benefit, and a tainted manager to take us into next season.

Top 6 form?! What the f*k does form mean in the face of the end results? Form meant f*k all to many on here when we were in the auto slots on a 9 game unbeaten run, so f*k knows why you're talking about it now.

Edited May 11, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Google Bot 3,327]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So objectively, Smith's tenure had us 1.44 points per game (36 points over 25 games)  and Wagner's had us 1.23 points per game 26 points over 21 games). Backwards, not promoted, millions of pounds wasted sacking a manager for no benefit, and a tainted manager to take us into next season.

No, to be objective, you take like-for-like squad availability as that's what we were discussing.  I'm no enemy of yours so please let's not play silly bugg3rs with each other.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Google Bot

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I feel like we like we are at risk of starting a bit of a vicious cycle here:

Sack Farke after a very disappointing start to our premier league season, bring in Smith and after a fairly positive initial 6-10 games slowly our performances deteriorate and we are relegated with a whimper. With all goodwill generated for Smith's initial performance totally lost and many hoping him to be sacked before the start of the next season.

We then sack Smith nearly halfway through the next season as performances and results slowly crumble. We bring in Wagner and after a positive initial 6-10 games our performances once again deteriorate and we end up nowhere near the playoffs ending the season with another whimper. With all the goodwill for Wagner's initial performance totally lost and many hoping him to be sacked before the start of the next season.

If we stick with Wagner now, then how confident are we he can turn it all around? With fan sentiment already turning like it had for Smith? Is there too much negativity already to overcome once again?

If things don't pan out, will we go a third season in a row with a mid-season sacking? Decisions which have only served to provide a short dead cat bounce on both prior occasions before the overall negative spiral the club is in takes a hold once more?

I would ordinarily say stick with him as he came into such a bad situation, but I said the same for Smith and giving him more time did not help. In fact we came back from the world cup break even worse than we had been in the lead up to it. So on that basis we are probably best to sack Wagner and just start afresh for next season....?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,596]

4 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

No, to be objective, you take like-for-like squad availability as that's what we were discussing.  I'm no enemy of yours so please not play silly ****s with each other.

Then don't come out with **** that I'm 'bitter about Smith'. The only thing I'm bitter about is those who refused to just support earlier in the season when it could have mattered. Idiots. If we were where we are now I'd have been completely behind replacing Smith over the Summer. As it is, I'm completely behind replacing Wagner so we can have a fresh start next season rather than have a repeat of people sulking because we didn't get promoted this season as they did over us not being relegated last season.

Edited May 11, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 6,015]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I feel like we like we are at risk of starting a bit of a vicious cycle here:

Sack Farke after a very disappointing start to our premier league season, bring in Smith and after a fairly positive initial 6-10 games slowly our performances deteriorate and we are relegated with a whimper. With all goodwill generated for Smith's initial performance totally lost and many hoping him to be sacked before the start of the next season.

We then sack Smith nearly halfway through the next season as performances and results slowly crumble. We bring in Wagner and after a positive initial 6-10 games our performances once again deteriorate and we end up nowhere near the playoffs ending the season with another whimper. With all the goodwill for Wagner's initial performance totally lost and many hoping him to be sacked before the start of the next season.

If we stick with Wagner now, then how confident are we he can turn it all around? With fan sentiment already turning like it had for Smith? Is there too much negativity already to overcome once again?

If things don't pan out, will we go a third season in a row with a mid-season sacking? Decisions which have only served to provide a short dead cat bounce on both prior occasions before the overall negative spiral the club is in takes a hold once more?

I would ordinarily say stick with him as he came into such a bad situation, but I said the same for Smith and giving him more time did not help. In fact we came back from the world cup break even worse than we had been in the lead up to it. So on that basis we are probably best to sack Wagner and just start afresh for next season....?

The thing is, Farke had a knack of producing improved performances after international breaks. Might not always have led to improved results, but it was clear he focused hard on the training ground. That sluggish set of performances after the World Cup break when we were promised a "whole new animal" from Smith probably prompted Webber to act.

Probably agree with those who say he needs a reasonable start, or at least signs that we're becoming the hard-pressing front-foot side his Huddersfield team was.

[Google Bot 3,327]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Then don't come out with **** that I'm 'bitter about Smith'. The only thing I'm bitter about is those who refused to just support earliewr in the season when it could have matter. Idiots. 

Sorry, I apologise for that I threw it out quite flippantly in your direction, and I do sympathise and support your general opinion on that side of things. 

What's weird about this muddle is that I prefer Wagner from a personal perspective, yet feel that that Smith could be considered more robust in the environment he was looking to build.  It's the run of games under Wagner, pre injuries that I'm holding on to as a positive and looking to build from that platform.

I feel there's more logic there, rather than judging him on issues out of his control.  What's not clear is how much damage limitation was being utilised in those final run of games, how much was us wanting to put experience into players like Idah knowing Pukki's out etc.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Google Bot

[shefcanary 2,465]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

How far we’ve fallen if the key players are now McLean, Hanley and Gibson, dear oh dear, what an absolute catastrophe of incompetence at our club.    These three shouldn’t be anywhere near starters by now, yet here we are.     

Ged, can't disagree with that view, I've been fairly constant on that.

However, Nutty may be pleased to hear, I'll plan to reset my horizon now, accept that we will take some time to recover from where we are and take pleasure in small improvements. 

It is what it is.

[shefcanary 2,465]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Yet he is apparently loved by Delia and Michael!

 

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Maybe he does really care about Norwich City but is awkward in interviews?

 

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

He barely can force a smile.

As there seems to be an agreement that Wagner cannot leave without dealing with Webber at the same time I've extracted a few statements from Sonyc's appraisal that I'd like to further substantiate a lack of good governance at the club. If Smith & Jones do like him so much then why not come out and face the press and tell us why exactly they do? And where is there Board recognition that Webber doesn't do good fan engagement and try to find a way of getting some kind of message across to fans to circumnavigate this whilst still not offending him? If does ask the question why Webber was chosen as the mouthpiece of the so called strategy in the first place if he wasn't up to it! And the least he can do is try and break the ice with the fans occasionally, if only in an informal way.

He has this summer's transfer window, we have to accept that. If he fails then Attanasio can start working some new kind of miracle.

[Google Bot 3,327]

15 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I'll plan to reset my horizon now, accept that we will take some time to recover from where we are and take pleasure in small improvements. 

Sounds like you've just came out of marriage guidance session. haha.

[Capt. Pants 4,278]

I don't want him as Head Coach. He seems to have lost the plot tactically, questionable formations, ridiculous substitutions, cannot seem to motivate the players.

However, we are stuck with him.

We just have to hope the clown Webber finally does something good and we assemble a squad that even a halfwit of a Head Coach can get something out of.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Google Bot 3,327]

1 minute ago, Capt. Pants said:

We just have to hope the clown Webber finally does something good and we assemble a squad that even a halfwit of a Head Coach can get something out of.

Are you fond of anyone at the club?  Reading that sentence in the context you've applied really does not bode too well, if I'm honest! 

[Bert 236]

The issue isn’t the head coach it’s not his fault he is incompetent , it’s the incompetents above him are the real issue 

[Mengo 825]

5 minutes ago, Bert said:

The issue isn’t the head coach it’s not his fault he is incompetent , it’s the incompetents above him are the real issue 

This💥💯✅️. Bonnie and Clyde. 

[Capt. Pants 4,278]

4 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Are you fond of anyone at the club?  Reading that sentence in the context you've applied really does not bode too well, if I'm honest! 

No not really at the moment. Just being honest on how I see things at the moment.

I like Gunny, Max, Omo, Kenny, Gibbo. Sara and Nunez seem decent lads and I'd love to see Idah prove the haters wrong. The rest I don't have a huge affiliation with really.

Wagner seems a nice enough chap but he really has to get a grip of this squad and stamp his style on it.

 

[Google Bot 3,327]

6 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

No not really at the moment. Just being honest on how I see things at the moment.

Well we're all low on confidence and questioning everything from top down.

But, I'd feel more concerned if W&W announced they were departing on Friday, but there's probably lot of better the devil you know tucked up inside my head, and a fear of the unknown if we decide to just drop it all and start from scratch.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Google Bot

[ged in the onion bag 857]

56 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Ged, can't disagree with that view, I've been fairly constant on that.

However, Nutty may be pleased to hear, I'll plan to reset my horizon now, accept that we will take some time to recover from where we are and take pleasure in small improvements. 

It is what it is.

Think it might take us even longer to recover from where we’re headed.    Sad.

[ron obvious 1,514]

Yes if he's successful.

No if he's not.

Easy peasy.

[Captain Holt 522]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

Because the type of player we recruit for him should be acceptable for any manager who also wants to play a high-press game. There's nothing to suggest we need to rip up the entire style or anything, we've barely even had a chance to see it because of the personnel available.

As for Wagner, he has proven credentials in this division. 

The same should have been the case when Farke departed but Webber knew best. I think Wagner's Liverpool lite style is unbelievably hard to recruit for in the championship. A team full of pressing monsters essentially. 

Wagner last succeeded in this division six years ago. Between then and now he has been a massive failure wherever he has been, including his very clearly defined target of promotion this season. He isn't the main problem but he's also not my idea of a solution. 

[pete 320]

Needs to build his squad get them fit, find out they do not fit his tactics.  Get injured and are disappointed when he gets his marching orders before Xmas.  Give him more time to prove he is as useless as he has proved to be.

[repman 635]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

Because the type of player we recruit for him should be acceptable for any manager who also wants to play a high-press game. There's nothing to suggest we need to rip up the entire style or anything, we've barely even had a chance to see it because of the personnel available.

As for Wagner, he has proven credentials in this division. Not just with any sort of promotion either. A promotion with a team that had a wage bill of only £12 million. I'm not going to call for his head when he's barely had a CB or CM to play for the last however many games. Especially when you consider with a fully fit squad we did look considerably better and were averaging 2ppg.

Where do you draw the line with proven credentials though? Chris Hughton finished 2nd in the league the same year as Wagner took Huddersfield up. If we appointed him would you say similar?

I also think the problems started to arise before we got hit badly with injuries. Hanley, Gibson and McLean were all starting up until the Sheff U game. This 1 win in 11 run has 4 games with the 3 of them in it too. Even so the bigger worry for me is that we still don't look like a well coached side, something which should persist, to an extent, through an injury crisis. If you think back to 18/19 for example, we started that season with Hanley/Klose as our CB's and ended with Godfrey/Zimmermann, we also seemed to have an injury in the midfield two every 5 games or so. Players having to come into a side and looking lost is usually as good a sign as any that the coaching team aren't providing the clarity on what needs to be done. 

[hogesar 9,753]

4 minutes ago, repman said:

Where do you draw the line with proven credentials though? Chris Hughton finished 2nd in the league the same year as Wagner took Huddersfield up. If we appointed him would you say similar?

I also think the problems started to arise before we got hit badly with injuries. Hanley, Gibson and McLean were all starting up until the Sheff U game. This 1 win in 11 run has 4 games with the 3 of them in it too. Even so the bigger worry for me is that we still don't look like a well coached side, something which should persist, to an extent, through an injury crisis. If you think back to 18/19 for example, we started that season with Hanley/Klose as our CB's and ended with Godfrey/Zimmermann, we also seemed to have an injury in the midfield two every 5 games or so. Players having to come into a side and looking lost is usually as good a sign as any that the coaching team aren't providing the clarity on what needs to be done. 

Yeah the big difference is we were replacing injured CB's with CM's and simply not having another CM in the side to play 3 in midfield!

[Barry Brockes 148]

This nonsense of Wagner needing a pre-season to build and work with his own team is just that, absolute nonsense. A new head coach should be able to introduce at least some improvement in the squad he inherits but under Wagner we're worse if anything  than we were umder Smith. Did Neil Warnock need a pre-season at Huddersfield, did Rob Edwards  need a pre-season at Luton? Of course not because they both have something about them. We've been landed with a has-been with two dismal failures on his CV who wouldn't have had a sniff of the job if he hadn't been mates with Webber.

[shefcanary 2,465]

4 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Sounds like you've just came out of marriage guidance session. haha.

Strangely, I did used to work for Relate! 😉 

[Google Bot 3,327]

2 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Strangely, I did used to work for Relate!

Got any funny stories, Or would that be immoral to ask?

[ron obvious 1,514]

49 minutes ago, Barry Brockes said:

This nonsense of Wagner needing a pre-season to build and work with his own team is just that, absolute nonsense. A new head coach should be able to introduce at least some improvement in the squad he inherits but under Wagner we're worse if anything  than we were umder Smith. Did Neil Warnock need a pre-season at Huddersfield, did Rob Edwards  need a pre-season at Luton? Of course not because they both have something about them. We've been landed with a has-been with two dismal failures on his CV who wouldn't have had a sniff of the job if he hadn't been mates with Webber.

Have you forgotten his first 2 away games already? And I wonder how much Tim's criminal pass out against Burnley dented morale.

Injuries & stupid individual errors have blighted our season. Impossible to know how you relatively weight all the factors that go into a team succeeding or failing. One thing is certain: next season will be different, it always is. I'm hoping it's better.

Edited May 11, 2023 by ron obvious

[shefcanary 2,465]

56 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Got any funny stories, Or would that be immoral to ask?

Over a drink I can talk about some of the dysfunctional people involved in the running of the organisation, but I'd probably have to be very drunk to do that. Can't talk about what went on in the counselling rooms as I was never privy to that!