I was wrong...

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

When I said I thought the players were good enough for better this season at the point of sacking Smith. 

Although I felt like there were still clearly issues and question marks aside from Dean Smith prior to the sacking - i.e. Webber's status at the club with his personal ambitions, the ownership situation, and the premier league 'hangover'(s) - I still believed there was enough quality available and potential within the squad to overcome these issues; at least in the short term with 4 months of football to get the fans on board, build some momentum and save the season.

And looking back now I am still struggling to understand how it all managed to get quite THIS wrong. 

As has been said plenty on here - during our purple patch of results under Smith, our performances were uniquely categorised with scintillating football for short spells of the game (15-20 minutes) and then like clockwork all momentum would shift to zero in an instant and all of a sudden we are playing slow / turgid possession football with little to no direction or incision. I can honestly say I've never witnessed a Norwich team with such a strange tendency. One minute we look like running away with the title and the next we look like Sunday League team playing at Carrow Road for a fundraiser. 

Often under Smith this change would be triggered by a specific moment in the game, and here are a few examples I can recall:

• For the first home game of the season, we were flying against Wigan and then they scored after that calamitous mix up at the back and all of a sudden we look totally shell-shocked as a team and fail to regain any meaningful momentum for a good 40 mins
• Sunderland away we were absolutely awful for 65 minutes and then we made those 3 subs and totally flipped the momentum around
• The Stoke game at home was genuinely some of the worst footy I've seen from us for the first 75 minutes, we'd somehow got 1-0 up with our only proper foray forwards in the first half but continued to be utter sh1te, with Stoke missing several chances, then we scored a second and for the last 15 minutes of the game we looked fantastic and the crowd got fully behind the team 

Some of the above can be understandable - and I fully acknowledge that games can often flip at a flick of a switch. But sometimes under Smith it wouldn't even be something as significant as a goal or another specific moment, it would just... happen:

• Versus QPR we started the first 20 minutes on fire and should've gone a goal or two up, then all of a sudden we just stopped playing to that level - and we never got back anything like what we had after that spell for the rest of the game 
• Coventry at home and Huddersfield at home we actually played pretty well for the first half of both of those games, and came into half time with strong-looking leads - but in both games we came out in the second half absolutely dire. As if the players had just been woken from a 15 minute nap. In particular the 15/20 minutes versus Coventry, 2-0 up, we were so incredibly bad for this period that I even heard a few boos ringing out. 2-0 up and the crowd are booing! Unheard of - but it was so poor I was struggling to get annoyed at our fans...

(I know there is more nuance to the games than I have given in the above, and we'd still sometimes have the odd good moment or brief spell during the bad periods - but these moments would be fleeting and everything about our play would feel so unnatural and forced whereas during the good spells just looked so fluid and easy)

The above was just a few I could think of and there were definitely more games like this.

Given this, I don't think it was fundamentality wrong to look at these massive peaks and troughs experienced with each game and question whether there was more to be had from the team more consistently throughout 90 minutes. No one expects us to batter teams consistently for 90 minutes but we should've been able to maintain that good momentum for longer and during the quieter periods we should've been mentally stronger at the back and still capable of stringing together meaningful spells. Just basically what we have seen from championship teams under Farke, Lambert, Neil, Worthington etc.

Ultimately what really killed Smith off was the total absence of even these short spells of good football after returning from the World Cup. I genuinely don't think we managed a single good spell in those few extra games - different animal indeed!

However with Wagner now being in charge for 4 months, I have been pretty shocked by the lack of change in this department, we appeared to have shaken the demons for that first good run of games from Preston up to Millwall away, but with this bad spell it now seems that various recent games under Wagner have shown similar characteristics (albeit the 'good' has been nowhere near as good):

• Rotherham at home we started so well but stopped pretty abruptly and never found that same rhythm 
• Boro away we had started well but they scored out of pretty much nowhere and then we went to pieces
• Today (I didn't go) but sounds like we did a similar capitulation as soon as they scored after an okay start

I think its now fair to say that this was not a characteristic of performance unique to Smith - rather a characteristic unique to our group of players. 

Clearly as a group we are far too emotional; too many are happy to ride the wave when its going good but won't swim against the tide when it isn't, too many go into their shells at the first sign of adversity. It feels to me like so many of them are struggling to come to terms with last season's failings. How can they accept an entire campaign of pathetic-ness and a total lack of competition offered to our opponents - performing in the league of their dreams? And this mindset appears to have permeated the new faces just as much. And its understandable really - to be honest.

This will clearly heal in time but we do need to prevent it from becoming a vicious cycle to the point it stops us competing for the top 6 next season, or worse... 

So looking back now if you were to ask me now about whether the decision to sack Smith was the right one, I'd still say yes (although genuinely felt we should've sacked him after Stoke at home with the upcoming WC break). But I think its fair to say now with the benefit of hindsight that he clearly wasn't doing quite as bad a job as was believed, still bad obviously just not AS bad. Based on our last few performances I think we'd be in a worse position now if he were still here than under Wagner. But ultimately he was made the fall-guy for Webber's mess because we all collectively believed the players had much more to give than they actually did.

There is still a part of me that believes the group could've achieved much more this season, and I could genuinely see many of them performing at the kind of level we expected, on paper, if they were to fit in as part of a harmonious squad of players with genuine hunger for premier league success and for a club / fanbase which had 'bought in' to their side. Unfortunately that is so far from us right now. The premier league failures have caused immeasurable damage to our mentality - to everyone. There is simply too much collective negativity and uncertainty all the way through the club and the total loss of all direction.

But that doesn't mean things can't change quickly. Look at a club like Chelsea now, recently won the champions league, have a squad of undoubted individual quality and massive expense, but for whatever reason 3 different managers have not got them performing this season. So do they need to sell off of their first-choice players like we think we do in order to achieve success now? Clearly not (aside from simply cutting down their overly bloated squad). Chelsea went from being very poor under Lampard to winning the champions league under Tuchel all in the same season, they now find themselves in an even worse downward spiral than the previous one - but I don't doubt for a second that the right manager with the right platform could have them comfortably back in the top 4 and challenging for trophies next season. 

So why can't we do similar? Maybe a fresh start next season - new investment / ownership, hopefully a new sporting director, I'm indifferent about Wagner, the moving on of some of the old guard and the introduction of bright / hungry prospects for premier league football, and another year further away from the premier league humiliation, maybe the fans and players might be able to start buying into something new again?

Looing back I was wrong when I said the players were good enough to get promoted this season at the point of sacking Smith, they clearly weren't - there had been too much water (sewage?) under the bridge by that point to regain momentum. However I do still think there is much more to give, and plenty of these players can and will come good next season despite not looking like it right now - IF we can do things well in the summer.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Petriix 2,843]

When we sacked Smith we still had Cantwell, Dowell and Pukki. We're significantly worse with none of them on the pitch. Add injuries to three of our first choice back four and McLean for good measure and it's unsurprising that we're not quite hitting the heights. However, having had a transfer window, I'm shocked that we didn't bring in some quality to push for the playoffs. The squad is undoubtedly the weakest it's been for many years. 

[Commonsense 626]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

When we sacked Smith we still had Cantwell, Dowell and Pukki. We're significantly worse with none of them on the pitch. Add injuries to three of our first choice back four and McLean for good measure and it's unsurprising that we're not quite hitting the heights. However, having had a transfer window, I'm shocked that we didn't bring in some quality to push for the playoffs. The squad is undoubtedly the weakest it's been for many years. 

This is the crux of the problem surely. I think you can ignore Cantwell who, despite his ability, made some impact early on but wasn’t really in the picture and hadn’t been for some time before he left, and to an extent Dowell, who looked promising in Wagner’s early games but hasn’t played enough to make it sustainable. Pukki is clearly a far, far better player than his replacements and not playing him is criminal, for assists and work rate even when he isn’t scoring. I know he is leaving and we need to look to the future but you cannot continue to play a much worse player ahead of him and expect it to work.

The key point though is the absence of Hanley, McLean and , to a lesser extent Gibson. The first 2 have been key this season, despite criticism on here, their replacements have simply been unable to cope. The team, like so many others, is based on confidence. We keep letting in goals after a generally strong start in games. Kenny in particular was able to keep pushing the ball forward helping to set up the likes of Sara, who has clearly improved his performances under Wagner.If nothing else we have shown who wrong those posters were who kept asking the club to drop the experienced players and ‘play the kids.’

[canarybubbles 1,923]

For me, I think it's less about the individual qualities of the players,  but the fact that they simply don't fit together into a team. Our repeated fruitless efforts to find a way for Pukki and Sargent (and sometimes Idah also) to become a functional attacking unit is a perfect example of this.

If we try to play possession football, penning the other team in their half as Swansea did against us, Sargent and Idah just don't have the ball control for that kind of game and will often concede the ball to the opposition through poor technique. Sara is also rather wasteful (although by far our most creative player), as is Nunez.

On the other hand, if we try to play with wingers pinging aerial balls into the box for Sargent (and Idah?), we only have one player who seems able to go past his defender on the wing (and he often over-elaborates and comes back to do it again). I can't remember Marquinhos, for example, going past his defender once, but IMO he would work well enough in a possession-based team because he seems a solid player who won't often give the ball away.

We've often ended up with a strange shape where we abandon the midfield and go for long balls, but these are generally over-hit and we don't have players with enough height on the wing to do much with diagonals. So we hit it up to Sargent centrally, who does pretty well if the ball goes to his head, but as (I think) Ken Hairy expressed it, if it's to his body he has the first touch of a trampoline.

Finally, we insist on passing it around at the back with a set of players who don't seem very comfortable doing this (especially as Hanley is at the centre of this process). This has led to mistake after mistake, going behind again, and then the confidence leaking out of the team like the air from a balloon.

We may no longer have Emi or Teemu at his best, but we still have some decent players IMO. Think of the goals from Nunez and Sara, from Sargent at times, and even once from Tzolis (although I'm sure Hogesar will claim this was just a tap-in). What I struggle to remember this season is any goal where I've thought 'wow, that was a really good team goal!'.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by canarybubbles

[king canary 7,609]

26 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

This is the crux of the problem surely. I think you can ignore Cantwell who, despite his ability, made some impact early on but wasn’t really in the picture and hadn’t been for some time before he left, and to an extent Dowell, who looked promising in Wagner’s early games but hasn’t played enough to make it sustainable. Pukki is clearly a far, far better player than his replacements and not playing him is criminal, for assists and work rate even when he isn’t scoring. I know he is leaving and we need to look to the future but you cannot continue to play a much worse player ahead of him and expect it to work.

The key point though is the absence of Hanley, McLean and , to a lesser extent Gibson. The first 2 have been key this season, despite criticism on here, their replacements have simply been unable to cope. The team, like so many others, is based on confidence. We keep letting in goals after a generally strong start in games. Kenny in particular was able to keep pushing the ball forward helping to set up the likes of Sara, who has clearly improved his performances under Wagner.If nothing else we have shown who wrong those posters were who kept asking the club to drop the experienced players and ‘play 

I think 'oh we're missing player x or y' is a poor excuse to be honest.

Sure we've looked worse these last few games but we were still conceding silly goals with Hanley, we were still struggling to break down poor teams with Pukki and Dowell and most importantly (as the op highlights) the mental failings of this squad have been on display all season.

I just hope Webber and the club don't try and use 'oh it was all because of injuries' as an excuse once this season is finished. It isn't. Things were **** before them, they are just more **** now.

[Monty13 2,235]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

When we sacked Smith we still had Cantwell, Dowell and Pukki. We're significantly worse with none of them on the pitch. Add injuries to three of our first choice back four and McLean for good measure and it's unsurprising that we're not quite hitting the heights. However, having had a transfer window, I'm shocked that we didn't bring in some quality to push for the playoffs. The squad is undoubtedly the weakest it's been for many years. 

Not to mention we returned one of our statistically best attacking players to allow them to sign for a rival.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Good thread and comments here.

For me there are 3 key things:

1. I think we are still shell shocked from the last PL capitulation and the torrent of criticism the club received. Most of this group went through it.

2. I get the impression that Smith and Shakey were at the shouty, bottle kicking end of the managerial scale. Failure to give the players a plan, as Smith admitted, and a lack of confidence means players will play with fear. This is my main explanation for the bursts of quality, if they are tense and worried about being carpetted for making mistakes they will not play naturally. It will be nervy and cautious. We see it in every walk of life. Confidence has simply not recovered from the Smith reign, and had been eroded by point 1,  and that may need to be restored by a significant purge to get a new feeling at Colney.

3. Poor recruitment, seemingly no strategy. Too many lightweight midfielders. Failure to strengthen in the DM role and defence, looks like a scattergun Chelsea approach on a budget. How on earth did injured Hayden get through the process? And how was Ramsey allowed to leave? Someone in the medical team thinks one player is injured worse than they are, and another is injured less than they are. Incomptetent.

Some folk used to say that the club was well run. I am afraid that the club now seems an amateurish ananachronism, run by mates for mates, and relatives. The successes we have had just look like lucky punts rather than any plan or professionalism. Much like Dave Stringer once said, the current regime have gone past their best before date.

[Canary Jedi 579]

We seem to have a soft-centre. Like OP mentioned until recently we play ok in certain spells of games, but then just gift the opposition a goal.

Earlier in the season I believe we were one of the best defensively from set pieces? Now look at us. That header we contended from a corner against Swansea was very soft.

I too have come to the conclusion that the fault does indeed lie with the players - not completely, but largely. Yes we can also argue that the recruitment and coaching is pants, but in the here and now the players are simply too mentally fragile, too short on passion and determination, too limited on creative attacking ideas, too scared to take risks and instead pass the buck (back) to others.

I’m not sure what is best going forwards. Could Russell Martin improve the existing squad? Would Wagner succeed with the right players? Would a replacement Director of Football do any better at recruiting value for money players?

Edited April 23, 2023 by Canary Jedi

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

When we sacked Smith we still had Cantwell, Dowell and Pukki. We're significantly worse with none of them on the pitch. Add injuries to three of our first choice back four and McLean for good measure and it's unsurprising that we're not quite hitting the heights. However, having had a transfer window, I'm shocked that we didn't bring in some quality to push for the playoffs. The squad is undoubtedly the weakest it's been for many years. 

 

1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

This is the crux of the problem surely. I think you can ignore Cantwell who, despite his ability, made some impact early on but wasn’t really in the picture and hadn’t been for some time before he left, and to an extent Dowell, who looked promising in Wagner’s early games but hasn’t played enough to make it sustainable. Pukki is clearly a far, far better player than his replacements and not playing him is criminal, for assists and work rate even when he isn’t scoring. I know he is leaving and we need to look to the future but you cannot continue to play a much worse player ahead of him and expect it to work.

The key point though is the absence of Hanley, McLean and , to a lesser extent Gibson. The first 2 have been key this season, despite criticism on here, their replacements have simply been unable to cope. The team, like so many others, is based on confidence. We keep letting in goals after a generally strong start in games. Kenny in particular was able to keep pushing the ball forward helping to set up the likes of Sara, who has clearly improved his performances under Wagner.If nothing else we have shown who wrong those posters were who kept asking the club to drop the experienced players and ‘play the kids.’

Some good points in here, the wheels did well and truly come off since the Hanley and McLean injuries and I didn’t mention that in the above - but I would argue that Smith went through pretty much our entire good run of results with absolute bare bones in terms of a central midfield (inc an injured Sara who even when fit looked miles off the pace!) plus McLean having to push out at left back because we had no McCallum, Giannoulis or Sorensen! Arguably not too far off as injury stricken as we’ve been recently - and for a much longer string of games. Oddly we then got full strength and struggled.

AO started this season ahead of Gibson, so he shouldn’t be a massive loss to the team. Cantwell doesn’t count either for obvious reasons. But I’d definitely say losing Dowell was a tough one as Wagner had him playing more and much better than Smith ever did.  Ditto Ramsey with Marquinhos very poor. 

With Hanley and McLean injured during realistically our last good performance - clearly we still had a shout of scraping into the playoffs at the very end. But I guess the overall point of my OP - and why I didn’t go to that detail around specific injuries - is that even scraping into the playoffs would’ve been far far below what I had expected when Smith was first sacked - and even if we had made it - in no way shape or form could I have seen us actually doing well anymore injuries or not.

Whereas Smith was sacked I felt like we could comfortably make the playoffs and do well in them and maybe even push top two, and the first 2 games under Wagner made me think I was right too - massive shame that it was asking so much more than what we got!

Edited April 23, 2023 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Peregrine Shorts 315]

of the eleven players who started yesterday there isn't one that i would be disappointed to see leave

[Well b back 3,222]

In theory we are plenty good enough. I come to this conclusion based on Coventry 0 Norwich 4 and Coventry have a pretty good chance of getting in the playoffs.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,288]

The fault of this season lays at Webbers door. He choose to stick with the core of this squad, and not refresh last summer as he should’ve done. 

This squad is tired, demotivated, passive and lacks confidence and more importantly belief. Too many relegations, too many bad results, and too many years at the club. Too much baggage, ultimately. Webber should’ve been competent enough to conclude this after the final whistle on our EPL campaign. 

Smith got results, but ultimately because of the above, there was no ability to deal with any sort of in game adversity. Eventually that caught up and the slide started. Smith wasn’t nearly as bad as some on here want to suggest, as Wagner is sadly proving. 

Webber is responsible for this current demise. No anti Webber agenda, but two decent managers at this level have failed because of the expensive squad of players he’s put together. 

Webber isn’t stupid, he knows it. I think he want’s one more summer to put it right, and save his reputation. Unfortunately for him, the task is now bigger than when he arrived. 

Next season, the three coming up from League One, and three dropping from the EPL, will make this league really difficult for Norwich to compete next season. 

We need direction and leadership from the top. Something has to change and it can’t afford to be ponderous like it usually is with Norwich. 
 

Bowket and McNally were much better.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[lake district canary 4,537]

Good thread. My penny's worth is that the players as a squad lack resilience because of too many changes from Dean Smith and Wagner.  Smith tried to alter the way we had played under Farke who had a disiplined and patient way of playing (for all it's flaws) and as a result of Smith's meddling we ended up a mixture of styles that left the players confused as to how to play at any given time. It was like watching the team play by numbers.  Wagner then came in and changed it again and we don't have the players to play his high energy game for 90 minutes.  They can do it in short bursts, but confidence in what they are doing is paper thin and folds at the slightest setback.

Farke had them playing at the best they could, even though it wasn't good enough for the PL, Smith started messing with their heads, Wagner has them trying to play differently again. So to me the players look mentally exhausted as a group, hence the way they lose their way easily.  

Too many changes by coaches, mentally tired players and an increasingly frustrated fanbase is a mixture that is not condusive for progress. 

As for players  - 

Defence - Aarons, Giannoulis look lesser players than they used to and I'm not sure McCullum is the answer at LB.  Hanley and Gibson are past their best imo, Omo is still young and needs someone like Zimmermann beside him to inspire and organise him and the defence as a whole - a job that Krul could do with his shouting and organising and we don't have that either.  Gunn is fine, but again, he is not up to Krul's level of organising.

Midfield - a reliance on McClean which is ok and he has been good this season, but not enough support from other midfieders. Nunez is in his first season and plainly has something, but we were probably not going to see the best from him his season. Sara too, but still not quite there with his levels overall. Gibbs young, with talent, needs good consistent players around him, which he hasn't got.  Sorensen - never seems to get a run in the team in his best position, frustrating for him and us.  Dowell has something when fit, but leats be fair, he has never looked totally the answer.  Marquhinos doesn't look like he can fit in with us.  Hernandez has been a player that looks capable, but he can't do it on his own. 

Up front - Sargent, playing up front as a striker has enough about him to cause problems, but his touch is still not up to the standard imo and is played in a position that doesn't suit hisstrengths. Idah's touch is not great either and is not great wide either - needs to be up front as the main striker with players around him that can provide him.  Sargent and Idah up front will never work imo. 

Pukki, still class at holding on to the ball and making runs, but simply not being given enough service to find his best form. 

I've probably left some players out, but overall it's a right dog's breakfast of a situation. Without Pukki, possibly Sara and Aarons next season, we will be even weaker and we can't rely on McClean to be the best player. We need young players like Omo and Rowe to step up, Gibbs to mature, a striker to replace Pukki, Nunez to settle into it and some new defenders.  Mumba back of course too. And maybe a new coach.....

[Capt. Pants 4,252]

All good points and opinions as to the root cause, but the issue now is how to move forward.

I don't know if and how much SW meddles in team affairs, tactics, formations, selections etc etc but regardless we need fresh eyes and 'room' for Wagner to work with the squad.

The basics of the squad are there but we now need to enhance that with players who have proven themselves in England. They need to be better than what we have now particularly those in attacking positions.

Yes it will cost money but the cost of not doing it even greater as we sleep walk to League One.

[hogesar 9,692]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I think 'oh we're missing player x or y' is a poor excuse to be honest.

Sure we've looked worse these last few games but we were still conceding silly goals with Hanley, we were still struggling to break down poor teams with Pukki and Dowell and most importantly (as the op highlights) the mental failings of this squad have been on display all season.

I just hope Webber and the club don't try and use 'oh it was all because of injuries' as an excuse once this season is finished. It isn't. Things were **** before them, they are just more **** now.

Mental failings, yep. Problem under both managers. But to say missing those players isn't hugely significant to any squad in this division is just nonsense.

[king canary 7,609]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Mental failings, yep. Problem under both managers. But to say missing those players isn't hugely significant to any squad in this division is just nonsense.

Not for me Clive.

We were bang average with them and put in some very poor performances. When I look at Boro I think back to the game v Sunderland where we had a similar mental breakdown post conceding but they didn't take their chances. We were **** before we're just more **** now.

Are we better with them in the side? Sure. Would we go up? Nope. Maybe we'd have lost to Boro 3-1 and Swansea 1-0 but what difference does that make in the grand scheme of things?

[hogesar 9,692]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not for me Clive.

We were bang average with them and put in some very poor performances. When I look at Boro I think back to the game v Sunderland where we had a similar mental breakdown post conceding but they didn't take their chances. We were **** before we're just more **** now.

Are we better with them in the side? Sure. Would we go up? Nope. Maybe we'd have lost to Boro 3-1 and Swansea 1-0 but what difference does that make in the grand scheme of things?

I made another thread that basically shows when we had Dowell, McLean and Hanley in the side we had relatively decent sample sizes that extrapolated over the season get us to around the 80 point mark under both managers.

I also don't think it would have been enough for us to go up this season because of the mental frailties you've already pinned to but if anyone doesn't think it's impacted our ability to get into the top 6 - where we are only a couple points away, then that's where I think people are wrong. One player can easily be worth a couple of points over a season,  3 or 4 of them even more so.

[Tumbleweed 106]

LDC and Creedence make some very good points. The situation is much more complex than just a missing player here or there , there is a whole bunch of stuff. Wagner needs to build a squad in the way he wants to play, not some Farke/ Smith transmogrification. Most of the present squad needs to move on, too much baggage. One of the Webbers also needs to move on, I don't think it healthy that two of them basicallly control day to day affairs, Delia needs to sell out, and the club needs to realign culturally with its roots and community feel. Not easy, all this.

[Nuff Said 5,146]

3 hours ago, Commonsense said:

This is the crux of the problem surely. I think you can ignore Cantwell who, despite his ability, made some impact early on but wasn’t really in the picture and hadn’t been for some time before he left, and to an extent Dowell, who looked promising in Wagner’s early games but hasn’t played enough to make it sustainable. Pukki is clearly a far, far better player than his replacements and not playing him is criminal, for assists and work rate even when he isn’t scoring. I know he is leaving and we need to look to the future but you cannot continue to play a much worse player ahead of him and expect it to work.

The key point though is the absence of Hanley, McLean and , to a lesser extent Gibson. The first 2 have been key this season, despite criticism on here, their replacements have simply been unable to cope. The team, like so many others, is based on confidence. We keep letting in goals after a generally strong start in games. Kenny in particular was able to keep pushing the ball forward helping to set up the likes of Sara, who has clearly improved his performances under Wagner.If nothing else we have shown who wrong those posters were who kept asking the club to drop the experienced players and ‘play the kids.’

Commonsense indeed. 👍

[Danke bitte 966]

2 hours ago, Tumbleweed said:

Good thread and comments here.

For me there are 3 key things:

1. I think we are still shell shocked from the last PL capitulation and the torrent of criticism the club received. Most of this group went through it.

2. I get the impression that Smith and Shakey were at the shouty, bottle kicking end of the managerial scale. Failure to give the players a plan, as Smith admitted, and a lack of confidence means players will play with fear. This is my main explanation for the bursts of quality, if they are tense and worried about being carpetted for making mistakes they will not play naturally. It will be nervy and cautious. We see it in every walk of life. Confidence has simply not recovered from the Smith reign, and had been eroded by point 1,  and that may need to be restored by a significant purge to get a new feeling at Colney.

3. Poor recruitment, seemingly no strategy. Too many lightweight midfielders. Failure to strengthen in the DM role and defence, looks like a scattergun Chelsea approach on a budget. How on earth did injured Hayden get through the process? And how was Ramsey allowed to leave? Someone in the medical team thinks one player is injured worse than they are, and another is injured less than they are. Incomptetent.

Some folk used to say that the club was well run. I am afraid that the club now seems an amateurish ananachronism, run by mates for mates, and relatives. The successes we have had just look like lucky punts rather than any plan or professionalism. Much like Dave Stringer once said, the current regime have gone past their best before date.

Your last point is absolutely spot on. I said this to my friend the other day, Norwich City FC feels like a public sector body akin to a local council. I worked for one for 10 years and from the outside, the mistakes, the malaise, the “that’ll do it’ll be fine” attitude is exactly what I experienced in my tenure at a local authority. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Not for me Clive.

We were bang average with them and put in some very poor performances. When I look at Boro I think back to the game v Sunderland where we had a similar mental breakdown post conceding but they didn't take their chances. We were **** before we're just more **** now.

Are we better with them in the side? Sure. Would we go up? Nope. Maybe we'd have lost to Boro 3-1 and Swansea 1-0 but what difference does that make in the grand scheme of things?

Once again it comes down to how we react to adversity. We have not had an unusual number of set backs this season, we just get unusually affected by the slightest sniff of misfortune because we are mentally weak. 

It’s been the same story with the prior premier league campaigns (albeit with some genuine reasons for failure to 19/20 in fairness with our consistent centre back situation). Remember last season and how after going 0-1 in god knows how many games, we all collectively knew the game was over. We’d often start games fairly okay, but the reaction to conceding was always so pathetic.

So take Hanley and McLean away and of course we’re not as strong, but it doesn’t warrant total capitulation - and as you say - up to the point of their injuries we were already in a bit of a downward spiral. The Blackburn away game may have been a turning point without the injuries, but the similar result at Millwall certainly wasn’t despite our beliefs at the time, the Coventry / Preston games weren’t either, neither was the run of good results under Smith. It’s been 90% a season of false dawns are we really going to believe we were suddenly going to shake it all off for the final 5/6 games to get to the play offs?

And as I said, even if we did scrape in, we’d still be ending the season with a very similar points total to 10/11th place in the league - it still is nowhere near good enough for the most well paid and one of the most expensive in the league!

Surely, to put the failings of this season on an injury situation is to blame only the final straw that broke the camel’s back and ignore everything else stacked below it?

[Nuff Said 5,146]

Mental resilience gets mentioned a lot above. I don’t think I’ve seen this tweet from Nick Ma****er quoted before but it’s an interesting take (and before Farke fans jump on it, his wider point is that Stuart Webber’s time should have been up at least two seasons ago):

 

[king canary 7,609]

20 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Once again it comes down to how we react to adversity. We have not had an unusual number of set backs this season, we just get unusually affected by the slightest sniff of misfortune because we are mentally weak. 

It’s been the same story with the prior premier league campaigns (albeit with some genuine reasons for failure to 19/20 in fairness with our consistent centre back situation). Remember last season and how after going 0-1 in god knows how many games, we all collectively knew the game was over. We’d often start games fairly okay, but the reaction to conceding was always so pathetic.

So take Hanley and McLean away and of course we’re not as strong, but it doesn’t warrant total capitulation - and as you say - up to the point of their injuries we were already in a bit of a downward spiral. The Blackburn away game may have been a turning point without the injuries, but the similar result at Millwall certainly wasn’t despite our beliefs at the time, the Coventry / Preston games weren’t either, neither was the run of good results under Smith. It’s been 90% a season of false dawns are we really going to believe we were suddenly going to shake it all off for the final 5/6 games to get to the play offs?

And as I said, even if we did scrape in, we’d still be ending the season with a very similar points total to 10/11th place in the league - it still is nowhere near good enough for the most well paid and one of the most expensive in the league!

Surely, to put the failings of this season on an injury situation is to blame only the final straw that broke the camel’s back and ignore everything else stacked below it?

Exactly. The injuries don't help but they aren't unusual but are being given undue importance by some on here in order to create a better narrative.

My worry would be that we'll hear similar from the club in the summer to justify why larger change isn't needed.

[hogesar 9,692]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Exactly. The injuries don't help but they aren't unusual but are being given undue importance by some on here in order to create a better narrative.

My worry would be that we'll hear similar from the club in the summer to justify why larger change isn't needed.

No, no one is "trying to create a better narrative". It's just acknowledging a pretty key factor that's hamstrung Wagner in recent fixtures.

[Commonsense 626]

2 hours ago, Well b back said:

In theory we are plenty good enough. I come to this conclusion based on Coventry 0 Norwich 4 and Coventry have a pretty good chance of getting in the playoffs.

I’m not sure where this comes from. Are you confusing it with Coventry 2 Norwich 4 or Preston 0 Norwich 4? It does highlight the fact that this season a number of our better performances have been away. Relatively recently we played well at Blackburn and before that at Millwall. All 4 are in the same area of the table as us. However consistency and our poor home record have counted against us. It is a 46 game season!

[The Bunny 310]

This team is just not very good.

I said back in December in the last Prem season that I didn't think they'd be good enough to get promoted next time (everyone seemed to be assuming it was a formality). Recruitment has been terrible. We sold our best player, let other talents leave and then failed to replace them. This is the result. 

Edit: adding the relevant quote, cause the preview truncated it:

Quote

This leaves the club in a bad situation financially, and if people think we’re going to breeze the championship again with this bunch of journeymen, they’re in for a rude awakening.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by The Bunny

[Mason 47 1,384]

It has become my conclusion that we've been undone by trying to 'straddle' two strategies- the good Farke times were defined by finding players that fit specific roles within a system. Take Stiepermann, who was never worth much in market value but was immensely valuable to us. 

The second pre-PL summer window I believe saw us start out with this intention, then lose our nerve. The strategy moved to 'the best players available with our funds' instead of 'best for us'. Players you'd heard of, with good fifa stats, but no explicit plan for how to use them.

This is where I see us now. For example, we have Sargent, who is probably one of our only saleable assets and needs to play to get return on investment. You have Pukki, our best player and needs to play; finally Idah, our perpetual 'potential' striker who needs to play to see if he can cash those chips in. All three need to play, but can't play together- and the heaviest irony of the situation is that with the manner we currently play (pass-pass-kick long) that Hugill was probably a better fit than any of them and he was carted off in Jan.

TLDR of all that, I think we have a number of perfectly capable individuals but lack cohesion. This is why Hernandez has become so prominent; his best attributes don't really rely on other players to make a difference and stand on their own merit. Even Sara, seen as our best asset at this time really, has dropped off suddenly as soon as the experienced McLean isn't there alongside him.

There is of course the caveat of injuries. Dowell getting injured was a real knife to the heart of the early Wagner system, and I honestly believe the situation with Hayden is just desperately unlucky for both club and player. But, that doesn't change the fact that we have a generally disparate selection of players that don't play well together.

As the man himself said yesterday, there's a lot of work ahead.

 

 

[Petriix 2,843]

I don't think we can just 'ignore Cantwell' when we've been so lacking in attacking midfield and, very specifically, in players dropping between the lines looking for the ball. Whatever went on before, it seems baffling that Wagner wasn't even given a look at him given how much he has relied on other players who were also approaching the end of their contracts.

Regardless, the biggest problem we have is change. Under Farke we had a dogmatic adherence to a specific way of playing. It took a year to embed into the squad with periods of what seemed aimless possession for the sake of it. I think Swansea have endured similar under Russell Martin and you can see the fruits on the pitch now - they might surprise a few people next season. People bleat about Farke's Premier League record but we actually looked really good after his first promotion. The incredibly clear start of our decline was the inexplicable abandonment of the footballing philosophy that underpinned Farke's success.

So here we are, two years into the next phase, and we've undeniably gone backwards. Arguably we're in a far worse position than when Webber joined us: limited assets, enormous wage commitments, limited income etc. I said it at the time that it was a huge mistake to attempt to reinvent ourselves as a gamble on Premier League survival. The recruitment has been abjectly bad and the current squad is totally incoherent. What we need is a clear vision in place of the scattergun approach.

The team needs to be built around a solid central midfield pairing which could be out of the players we already have: McLean, Gibbs, Sorensen, Sara but could benefit from some serious investment and absolutely should not involve a loanee or someone with injury problems.

Then we need to develop a functional defensive structure (which ultimately is all a formation really is) by defending from the front to the back. For too long we've been trying to accomodate 'wingers' (or just playing strikers out of position out wide) without enough emphasis on positional discipline. What we need is wide midfielders who form a reliable part of a cohesive defensive unit, starting far deeper and narrower by default, giving us space behind the opposition defence to exploit. We need creativity, vision and awareness in both attack and defence. So many goals we concede come from our midfield failing to track opposition runners so that's the absolute priority issue to resolve.

I'd actually be really happy to see us go far more defensive initially before we start to become more expansive once the fundamentals are in place. We need to develop far better counterattacking patterns where we pull opposition defenders out of position with dynamic movement off the ball and incisive early passes.

Sadly everything I've just written would basically take us back to where we were two seasons ago. It's incredible to think that it was all thrown away. It's going to take extreme good fortune and a huge amount of hard work to get anywhere near that level again. Oh for a return to Farkeball!

[shefcanary 2,410]

46 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The incredibly clear start of our decline was the inexplicable abandonment of the footballing philosophy that underpinned Farke's success.

Come on its not that inexplicable. Webber insisted Farke play a 4-3-3 when we went up to the EPL the 2nd time. However Webber failed to provide the players to enable this switch in set up to be successful.

You then confuse me entirely.

49 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The team needs to be built around a solid central midfield pairing which could be out of the players we already have:

Whixh implies a Farke 4-2-3-1. But then:

51 minutes ago, Petriix said:

What we need is wide midfielders who form a reliable part of a cohesive defensive unit, starting far deeper and narrower by default,

This implies a 4-3-3 set up.

This demonstrates the kind of problem we have. What exactly do we want to be?

Aside from that, most of the contributions from everyone on this thread I agree with.

We need someone responsible for squad matters to have a clear vision, then provide the players that can be delivered by a manager that wholeheartedly buys into it. Webber has failed on this front for the past 3 seasons. How much more time do we give him, especially when no-one in the Board Room seems capable of challenging his performance. 

[Petriix 2,843]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

This implies a 4-3-3 set up.

Quite the opposite: in the 4-3-3 the wide attackers are far too high and wide (unless you have sufficient quality both up front to terrorise defences and in defence to cope with being outnumbered on occasion). In Farke's 4-2-3-1 we ended up far better balanced with the three AMs playing very narrow and starting much deeper when out of possession.