**official lappinitup match thread swans v canaries**

[chicken 2,677]

13 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Being a centrist fence sitter like me is hard work

 

Even more so when you change your opinions on the fly to suit the current narrative like I do😇

I envy people who believe that blindly following a hard and fast position will get progress.

It doesn't. Life would be so much easier if it did. I wouldn't have to keep changing colour schemes in our house for starters... 😁

History has told us that everything is fluid, change is as inevitable as the seasons. No one wears winter clothing all year round in the UK, it'd be illogical to. So why do people try to convince everyone that this is exactly how we should go through life? Blindly following any one position without questioning it, challenging it and asking if it is good for "now". "Now" being this period, today and for the next 'x' amount of time.

Edited December 10, 2022 by chicken

[chicken 2,677]

2 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Lambert for me played the best football of all the managers we’ve ever had. Never beaten at any level. 

100% agree. And he did it with a team that on paper, was far weaker than many of the teams before and after.

If we could get him back with that same team and replicate it, I wouldn't even consider it for a fleeting moment, "yes" would have left my mouth before I would have formed the thought. However, that's sadly history.

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

20 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Yes, in that we were right all along. How very dare we come along with our analysis and logic to spoil your Brexit fun. The correlation is pretty clear: those of us who loved our sexy continental manager with his progressive ideology are far more likely to have also appreciated having functional economic ties with our largest trading partner. In many ways Dean Smith's Norwich tenure is like post-Brexit Britain: everything has massively gone backwards, there's the chance of rebuilding but only by trying to make things more like they were before and, ultimately, it was a massive mistake brought about through arrogance and short-sighted thinking. It was one thing to think that Brexit might be a good idea before it happened but it's pretty rare to find anyone who still thinks it was the right choice in hindsight. It's becoming increasingly so with Smith too.

Thanks for the lecture and although it doesn't matter I didn't vote to leave the EU. What does matter is that the UK has left the EU and Smith/City is grinding out the right results - So people should get behind Brexit and City supporters should get behind their team.

[Yellow Fever 3,848]

11 minutes ago, chicken said:

100% agree. And he did it with a team that on paper, was far weaker than many of the teams before and after.

If we could get him back with that same team and replicate it, I wouldn't even consider it for a fleeting moment, "yes" would have left my mouth before I would have formed the thought. However, that's sadly history.

I don't think Lambert was a spectacularly good manager - he largely failed elsewhere - but at Norwich everything just came together at the right time, right people, right place.

Clearly the basis of a good championship side had sunk to div.1. We had a holy trio of Holt, Hoolahan and Martin  who ran riot - Holt and Hoolahan in particular being good EPL players (Holt went on to score 20 odd goals in that first EPL season back and should of earned a cap). What I suspect is that the roller-coaster ride back to EPL from div 1 bread a confidence and trust in the players, a never say die attitude that was self fulfilling and Lambert (or was it Cully) fostered that.

Smith hasn't been so fortunate. It's difficult to turn around a team in a competitive league that is failing - Farke couldn't do it.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[chicken 2,677]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I don't think Lambert was a spectacularly good manager - he largely failed elsewhere - but at Norwich everything just came together at the right time, right people, right place.

Clearly the basis of a good championship side had sunk to div.1. We had a holy trio of Holt, Hoolahan and Martin  who ran riot - Holt and Hoolahan in particular being good EPL players (Holt went on to score 20 odd goals in that first EPL season back and should of earned a cap). What I suspect is that the roller-coaster ride back to EPL from div 1 bread a confidence and trust in the players, a never say die attitude that was self fulfilling and Lambert (or was it Cully) fostered that.

Smith hasn't been so fortunate. It's difficult to turn around a team in a competitive league that is failing - Farke couldn't do it.

Agreed.

And much like Lambert, I think Farke succeeded in getting more out of the team than the sum of it's individual parts. A fact he even pointed out when asked why some players had been allowed to leave and those brought in struggling with the "which league in Germany are they playing now?" quip.

Last season Smith had none of his own signings. He clearly changed some for the better. Idah looked dangerous, more faith was put in Sargent who improved, defensively we were better without the ball. But like you say, not enough to turn it around.

We're in transition. Many of the squad that are here now won't be in two years, or at least, will not be first team regulars. That goes for the likes of McLean, Gibson, Hanley, Pukki and in Krul, we are already seeing that happening. This is the third or fourth attempt at building a solid midfield in as many seasons, both centrally and out wide.

I do think Karsa had a hell of a lot to do with that side. He certainly found some bargains.

[chicken 2,677]

16 minutes ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Thanks for the lecture and although it doesn't matter I didn't vote to leave the EU. What does matter is that the UK has left the EU and Smith/City is grinding out the right results - So people should get behind Brexit and City supporters should get behind their team.

There's a difference though... 

Smith is grinding out results and has us performing at the top of the table.

The same cannot be said of the other thing that should be kept to the other part of the forum. And frankly, won't be improved with people simply "getting behind it".

Personally, whilst the idea of everyone working together is the best ideal to have, I would rather it be in better circumstances than bailing water. And perhaps you'll forgive some of us for not wanting to help bail out water when we said shooting through your own hull was not the way to get to the top the quickest.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

26 minutes ago, chicken said:

I envy people who believe that blindly following a hard and fast position will get progress.

It doesn't. Life would be so much easier if it did. I wouldn't have to keep changing colour schemes in our house for starters... 😁

History has told us that everything is fluid, change is as inevitable as the seasons. No one wears winter clothing all year round in the UK, it'd be illogical to. So why do people try to convince everyone that this is exactly how we should go through life? Blindly following any one position without questioning it, challenging it and asking if it is good for "now". "Now" being this period, today and for the next 'x' amount of time.

If you think my comments alluded to blindly following a view then I’m not sure you have understood my previous posts on Smith. I was very willing to give him time, but his time for me has run out. I’m not averse to changing my view when it warrants it as new evidence comes up. My issue is the rate of changing a view and then changing it back again, over and over and over just can’t be taken seriously. You need at least some time for new evidence to come to light. And in this context, which is not some kind of high level political conundrum, it’s a football manager and a club, changing mood game by game is too much. But worse is doing that whilst very vocally labelling the other ‘side’ as ‘haters’ or vice versa. It’s just bi-polar 

[Petriix 2,856]

27 minutes ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Thanks for the lecture and although it doesn't matter I didn't vote to leave the EU. What does matter is that the UK has left the EU and Smith/City is grinding out the right results - So people should get behind Brexit and City supporters should get behind their team.

Or we should campaign for progressive change to actually make things better rather than swallowing whatever we're fed by those in power.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

32 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I don't think Lambert was a spectacularly good manager - he largely failed elsewhere - but at Norwich everything just came together at the right time, right people, right place.

Agree that Lambo was the right piece of jigsaw for the puzzle that we had at the time. 

However I also think Smith is a piece which belongs to a different jigsaw set.

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Lambert for me played the best football of all the managers we’ve ever had. Never beaten at any level. 

Better than Stringer, better than Walker.........well no, not even close.

[Mello Yello 2,314]

...Lads are back from Wales they've just landed and are missing the England game!.....😲

[By Hook or Ian crook 925]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Better than Stringer, better than Walker.........well no, not even close.

For my money I enjoyed the football more under Lambert than the others. The 3rd in the Prem season under Walker was amazing as was the UEFA cup run. But for my money the greatest achievement by any manager for us was taking a team from bottom of league one to two successive promotions then comfortably surviving in the Prem. The team was largely assembled from players no one had heard of before and from the lower leagues. 

[......and Smith must score. 1,368]

1 hour ago, Mello Yello said:

...Lads are back from Wales they've just landed and are missing the England game!.....😲

Wouldn’t think they’re too fussed as the majority of ‘em are foreigners 

[Mello Yello 2,314]

Just now, ......and Smith must score. said:

Wouldn’t think they’re too fussed as the majority of ‘em are foreigners 

Well Micky Wynne's from Wales....

[......and Smith must score. 1,368]

Just now, Mello Yello said:

Well Micky Wynne's from Wales....

Exactly

[chicken 2,677]

3 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

If you think my comments alluded to blindly following a view then I’m not sure you have understood my previous posts on Smith. I was very willing to give him time, but his time for me has run out. I’m not averse to changing my view when it warrants it as new evidence comes up. My issue is the rate of changing a view and then changing it back again, over and over and over just can’t be taken seriously. You need at least some time for new evidence to come to light. And in this context, which is not some kind of high level political conundrum, it’s a football manager and a club, changing mood game by game is too much. But worse is doing that whilst very vocally labelling the other ‘side’ as ‘haters’ or vice versa. It’s just bi-polar 

If you say "I am willing to give him time" you are also suggesting that you didn't favour his appointment. Which in turn means that "time" is likely to be shorter than someone who didn't have that view at the outset. 

I do agree with the divisiveness stuff though. I'm not someone advocating for Smith to be our manager for the next 5-10yrs. Equally, I'm not yet ready to jump into the boiling hot water of extreme annoyance to say I want him gone tomorrow.

Yes, we remain far from convincing going forwards. We lacked Nunez, AJ and Cantwell who are arguably three of our most creative players. Yet we managed to grind out a win on the basis of limiting Swansea to few decent chances.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

If you say "I am willing to give him time" you are also suggesting that you didn't favour his appointment. Which in turn means that "time" is likely to be shorter than someone who didn't have that view at the outset. 

I do agree with the divisiveness stuff though. I'm not someone advocating for Smith to be our manager for the next 5-10yrs. Equally, I'm not yet ready to jump into the boiling hot water of extreme annoyance to say I want him gone tomorrow.

Yes, we remain far from convincing going forwards. We lacked Nunez, AJ and Cantwell who are arguably three of our most creative players. Yet we managed to grind out a win on the basis of limiting Swansea to few decent chances.

I think it’s a sliding scale if tolerance tbf. I have a lower level of tolerance as I feel we are making such a lack of discernible progress under Smith that I see no point in him remaining. I also genuinely watch every game hoping that it won’t be a really disappointing spectacle and am left wanting every time. A year to get his ‘style’ into the players, recruit the key players to knit it all together and half a season for it to look like it works and I’m still waiting and wanting. Not one performance to make me step back and think - wow, this is something I can get behind. I definitely agree that it is arguable Cantwell can be considered a creative player we lacked. I think he been lacking creativity for two years 😂. Agree about Nunez and AJ though to an extent. I just don’t think Nunez has been consistent enough and AJ is neither consistent nor ours to keep as a core and important part of a squad ready to push. It’s all just so disjointed. It didn’t start being disjointed with Smith, but he doesn’t have what it takes to reform the necessary togetherness we need to go forward in my opinion. 

[chicken 2,677]

2 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I think it’s a sliding scale if tolerance tbf. I have a lower level of tolerance as I feel we are making such a lack of discernible progress under Smith that I see no point in him remaining. I also genuinely watch every game hoping that it won’t be a really disappointing spectacle and am left wanting every time. A year to get his ‘style’ into the players, recruit the key players to knit it all together and half a season for it to look like it works and I’m still waiting and wanting. Not one performance to make me step back and think - wow, this is something I can get behind. I definitely agree that it is arguable Cantwell can be considered a creative player we lacked. I think he been lacking creativity for two years 😂. Agree about Nunez and AJ though to an extent. I just don’t think Nunez has been consistent enough and AJ is neither consistent nor ours to keep as a core and important part of a squad ready to push. It’s all just so disjointed. It didn’t start being disjointed with Smith, but he doesn’t have what it takes to reform the necessary togetherness we need to go forward in my opinion. 

Ok, so whether you feel Cantwell is creative or not, we are better with him on the pitch this season. I don't really care much about a season or two ago. We can all say that the Cantwell of the first promotion season, premier league season and the 2nd promotion season after knuckling down was superb, but who cares? It isn't relevant to now.

He may not be as purely creative as a Buendia or Hoolahan, but what he has is the footballing brain in terms of movement and link play. He has a very deft touch and helps to keep the ball moving and has a nice, sharp turn on him.

I also don't get this stuff about AJ not being ours. He is this season and right now, that is all that matters. Much like Skipp, if he helps us get promoted and then Villa think he's too good to sell? I don't care. We're up. Worry about that bit then, not now.

Smith has only had the summer with "his" players. Nunez, Sara and Hayden. Two of those three didn't start the season. Hayden has been catching up fitness wise. Nunez and Sara were always going to be a bit inconsistent owing to being their first season. As a club though, we had no choice but to sign at least three central midfields (defensive/box to box or otherwise) owing to the exodus, including Rupp turning down an extension.

As for "togetherness" - that clearly isn't the issue at hand. Co-ordination attacking wise is. We have improved off the ball, which is bloody good because people were only calling for that for three seasons at least under Farke, and what was supposedly delivered in the summer prior to the last premier league campaign... 

The issue for me is that we have been somewhat forced to retain and play wingers that weren't 1st choice before. Sinani arguably had one leg out the door, Hernandez's future was uncertain. Neither got a look in ahead of Cantwell or Buendia.

The width and up front will no doubt be where our focus could be turned next with Hugill and Pukki out of contract come the summer along with Sinani, Dowell, Cantwell and I think Hernandez.

[Ian 1,140]

4 hours ago, chicken said:

100% agree. And he did it with a team that on paper, was far weaker than many of the teams before and after.

If we could get him back with that same team and replicate it, I wouldn't even consider it for a fleeting moment, "yes" would have left my mouth before I would have formed the thought. However, that's sadly history.

Lambert or Lambert + Cully + Karsa?

[Ian 1,140]

Had the performance today been an aberration, I am sure we would be praising the teams' resilience after a long lay off.

However, the match today was an absolute carbon copy of every other game we have seen this season - small flashes of good football, but prolonged periods of dull and predictable play with the result seemingly hinging on whether the opposition take their chances or not as opposed to us dominating and controlling matches.

[Branston Pickle 3,733]

2 minutes ago, Ian said:

Had the performance today been an aberration, I am sure we would be praising the teams' resilience after a long lay off.

However, the match today was an absolute carbon copy of every other game we have seen this season - small flashes of good football, but prolonged periods of dull and predictable play with the result seemingly hinging on whether the opposition take their chances or not as opposed to us dominating and controlling matches.

We did absolutely fine - can always be more expansive and dominating at home, but away it’s ‘horses for courses’ and you can’t always deliver that.  For me the result was key and while it may have been dull, the win was deserved. 

[Ian 1,140]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

We did absolutely fine - can always be more expansive and dominating at home, but away it’s ‘horses for courses’ and you can’t always deliver that.  For me the result was key and while it may have been dull, the win was deserved. 

Maybe. But it has to be part of a general pattern of improvement so the jury is out. We were extremely lucky Swansea were atrocious in front of goal today. They had many more chances than we mustered.

[ron obvious 1,517]

Only saw the first half but it was atrocious, like a team of strangers, often getting in each other's way, passing back to Gunn at every opportunity, even when mounting attacks, standing off players, no energy. Awful.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Away win always good, but would feel much more positive if it was a convincing performance that backed it up. 

Ultimately the performance and result has not done a single jot for me in terms of instilling some faith back in Dean Smith. We’ve played better and lost or drew quite a few times this season.

But it’s the first game back for three weeks so can excuse a sloppy performance, hopefully we get to see that ‘different animal’ soon. I’d love to see us turn it around now under Smith and mount a genuine top 2 push - like I know this team can!

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

54 minutes ago, chicken said:

Ok, so whether you feel Cantwell is creative or not, we are better with him on the pitch this season. I don't really care much about a season or two ago. We can all say that the Cantwell of the first promotion season, premier league season and the 2nd promotion season after knuckling down was superb, but who cares? It isn't relevant to now.

He may not be as purely creative as a Buendia or Hoolahan, but what he has is the footballing brain in terms of movement and link play. He has a very deft touch and helps to keep the ball moving and has a nice, sharp turn on him.

I also don't get this stuff about AJ not being ours. He is this season and right now, that is all that matters. Much like Skipp, if he helps us get promoted and then Villa think he's too good to sell? I don't care. We're up. Worry about that bit then, not now.

Smith has only had the summer with "his" players. Nunez, Sara and Hayden. Two of those three didn't start the season. Hayden has been catching up fitness wise. Nunez and Sara were always going to be a bit inconsistent owing to being their first season. As a club though, we had no choice but to sign at least three central midfields (defensive/box to box or otherwise) owing to the exodus, including Rupp turning down an extension.

As for "togetherness" - that clearly isn't the issue at hand. Co-ordination attacking wise is. We have improved off the ball, which is bloody good because people were only calling for that for three seasons at least under Farke, and what was supposedly delivered in the summer prior to the last premier league campaign... 

The issue for me is that we have been somewhat forced to retain and play wingers that weren't 1st choice before. Sinani arguably had one leg out the door, Hernandez's future was uncertain. Neither got a look in ahead of Cantwell or Buendia.

The width and up front will no doubt be where our focus could be turned next with Hugill and Pukki out of contract come the summer along with Sinani, Dowell, Cantwell and I think Hernandez.

Games won this season where Cantwell has played 45+ minutes = 3. 
Games lost this season where Cantwell has played 45+ minutes =4

Games drawn = 3

Goal involvements in 18 appearances = 0 

most important stat of all though. I’ve watched him and aside from run about to pressure oppo midfielders he has been largely just that. Industrious and ineffective. His sub appearances yield almost the same success rate as when he starts. He is definitely no Buendia or Hoolahan. The trouble is he isn’t even a Dowell, McKlean, Sara, etc. 

In short, there’ll be no gaping holes left once his contract is up that’s for sure. 

Bit in all honesty it boils down to one thing. Your opinion of Smith is that him staying is better than him going. My opinion is the opposite. I do however see Smith staying whether I like it or not, so what measure are you going to use to judge whether he should stay beyond this season? 

I expected top 2 but I’m willing to concede to comfortable playoff berth and at least looking competitive with who we face. Shy of that he is abject. I’d still want him gone because the football is appalling but I’d have to accept it was st least effective enough. 

What’s your measure? 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, Mello Yello said:

Well Micky Wynne's from Wales....

So is Webber

[Pyro Pete 1,940]

Highlights here:

 

[Surfer 1,547]

8 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Lambert for me played the best football of all the managers we’ve ever had. Never beaten at any level. 

Lambert and Farke. Two totally different playing styles and two wonderfully entertaining sides. 

To go from Lambert to Hughton, and from Farke to Smith is our punishment by the football gods. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

6 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

Highlights here:

 

Pretty much sums up Swansea dominance and how if we had been Swansea and lost one nil we would be devastated. I think I’ve finally worked out Smith style. It’s to let the opposition dominate the game and hope they can’t score their chances. Inspiring stuff 😂

[Steve White 24]

14 hours ago, chicken said:

Certainly, and I'll be really honest here... I feel that to be the case in football in general.

The most appealing factor about the world cup right now is that there is no one standout team in the same way there was when Brazil had Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Carlos, Rivaldo, Cafu, Dida, Kaka and Gilberto Silva etc.

This makes it hugely appealing to a neutral or a footie fan who's team is already out.

The premier league is a different beast. Generally speaking, the amount of points needed to stay up has fallen. It's becoming more about the haves than the have nots. And the haves are ringfenced by poorly conceived rules, unless you believe the rules were made to ringfence those assets in the premier league that draw in the money?

In reality, most teams in the championship have gotten wise to the fools gold of the premier league. For every Brighton, Leeds, Brentford, Leicester that teams hope to replicate, there are Blackburn, Watford, Burnley, Shef Utd, Sunderland, Middlesbro, Birmingham, Coventry, West Brom, Huddersfield, Cardiff, Wigan, Hull and us.

Parachute payments generally only ensure one season of hoping to retain Premier League quality now. No club can afford to keep those wages on the books unless they have someone seriously happy to dip into their own pockets. And despite what many will claim, very, very, very few owners actually do. What they do is loan the money to the club. The lot down the road can tell you how that goes... 

IMHO, the championship is levelling off, helped by this move (again reflected in the world cup) in football to move towards this current trend of "chess-ball", keep risks to a minimum, hold onto the ball more unless you quickly establish weaknesses and exploit them. Many games are slow, walking pace with pace only being on the break with teams reluctant to surrender space in behind or to break their shape.