Max/Byram

[daly 501]

What a difference Max made to our attacking options when he came on for the last few minutes 

Byram is completely lost going forward 

How Smith prefers him to Max is unbelievable 

Negitive is an understatement 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Aarons did well when he came on last night, but then he was essentially playing a team that had decided to stop attacking and protect the point, so it's easy for a defender to look dangerous in that context.

Overall this season I think Byram has looked the better of the two at right-back to be honest with you, it's a rare Smith selection that I actually understand and agree with.

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Max is by far the better of the two 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Max is the better going forwards, Byram is better at helping keep defensive shape. There's an argument that Byram's the defensive full-back and it frees up the other one, either McCallum or Giannoulis, to bomb forward much more frequently.

[hogesar 9,674]

Byram stops us losing headers from wingers or full backs running into the near / far post. Which is pretty important.

But yes, going forwards Max is considerably better.

[ZLF 274]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Byram stops us losing headers from wingers or full backs running into the near / far post. Which is pretty important.

I have no doubt that aerial prowess is key to smiths preference,  which is why i think mccallum will remain ahead of Dimi at left back.

[Jim Smith 2,319]

I get that Byram is a more reliable defensive option. 

But I have to say that with a team so devoid of pace in wide areas as we are, the ability for the full backs to beat their man is key and for that reason i think we need to put Max back in there. Byram simply does not have the same attacking threat. 

No coincidence that our best periods were when McCallum was bombing forward in the first half and at the end after max came on.

Dowell needs more game time in the middle as well as he is the one who can play the through balls for Pukki. 

[Mr Tea 105]

The last few games that Max has started he seems to have lost the drive to push on .

unsure if told not to or that his choice but he doesn’t look the player he was over the last few seasons.

 

[Number9 272]

Max doesn't go forward though, does he.

His play last season and this has been sideways and backwards. 

He struggles to defend more often than not. 

 

[unique 435]

Maybe the plan should be to play Byram in the first half to give more defensive rigidity and play Aarons in the second half with the brief to offer attacking threat to a potentially tiring defence.

Injuries aside, both players know they can fire on every cylinder for a 45 minute spell.

[shefcanary 2,409]

In hindsight, would it have been better if Max came on to do the Hernandez role? Just thinking aloud?

[ron obvious 1,502]

Can I just say how excellent Kenny was when he came on? I now think it's his best position.

McCallum was also very good to start with, but QPR seemed to have figured him out by the second half (or perhaps he ran out of steam).

Byram had a rather poor game I thought. He was fairly solid but stolid - incapable of starting anything down the left side. That may have been due to the opposition tactics though &/or lack of movement upfront.

A 'nearly' game, but you could argue that it's our luck evening out  after getting some fortunate results during our unbeaten run.

[king canary 7,607]

2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I get that Byram is a more reliable defensive option. 

But I have to say that with a team so devoid of pace in wide areas as we are, the ability for the full backs to beat their man is key and for that reason i think we need to put Max back in there. Byram simply does not have the same attacking threat. 

No coincidence that our best periods were when McCallum was bombing forward in the first half and at the end after max came on.

Dowell needs more game time in the middle as well as he is the one who can play the through balls for Pukki. 

I only saw the second half yesterday but it was noticeable how little the fullbacks seemed to be getting forward. It seemed tactical more than anything but it left the attacking midfield trio isolated and often having no options and getting dispossessed.

I'd argue if we're confident in the Gibbs/Hayden double pivot then that should free up the fullbacks to be more positive.

 

[king canary 7,607]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Byram stops us losing headers from wingers or full backs running into the near / far post. Which is pretty important.

But yes, going forwards Max is considerably better.

This is a bit of a tough balance to strike and why I'm still a big advocate for us playing with a back 3.

You can include Byram as one of the central three meaning we still have players in there with the ability to progress up the field while being less susceptible to crosses to the far post, free Aarons up to be more attacking and also stop us having to shove square pegs into round holes in attacking midfield in order to create width.

[hepphep 175]

I think Byram was really good first half and it was good decision to start with him. We had Sara on that side to be the more offensive option and McCallum on other side as more offensive fullback. I think that Sara and Max sort of excludes each other from playing on same wing as they'd eat out each other's attacking options and Sara does not stand out as very good in defensive positioning, therefore not providing Max the required support defensively.

Max is more aggressive offensively, but I think his offensive strength is not same that few years back when he was able to get into box more. Now he quite often cuts in earlier which can cause good chances but also takes space out of other forward players and therefore I think he'd likely taken off some of the attacking play we were playing there.

In a way, I think he is bit like Hernandez on his attacking endeavors. He has good engine and pace and can create something out of thin air, valuable asset when trying to break the low defensive formation, but on the other hand not on his main strengths in the way we played first half.
 

Edited November 3, 2022 by hepphep

[Robert N. LiM 4,356]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'd argue if we're confident in the Gibbs/Hayden double pivot then that should free up the fullbacks to be more positive

This. We have no other width in the team, so have to get the full backs forward. Max needs to force his way back into the team.

[daisy 138]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Max is the better going forwards, Byram is better at helping keep defensive shape. There's an argument that Byram's the defensive full-back and it frees up the other one, either McCallum or Giannoulis, to bomb forward much more frequently.

Football doesn't work that way though!!

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Just play Max Aarons as a right winger, ahead of Byram, until Byram gets injured again.

Problem solved.

[repman 635]

Pretty much all of our full backs look bad going forward (or don't seem to ever get forward) because the only way we try to progress the ball up the pitch is down the sides. I'd love to know how many passes Gibson played out to left back last night, I'd bet 25+. As soon as the full back gets it they open themselves up and see absolutely no passing options, meaning they go back to the CB and we start again. We don't play through teams at all, the only time we found a pass through the middle of QPR was the Gibbs-Dowell-Onel move near the end that we should've scored from. 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 hour ago, daisy said:

Football doesn't work that way though!!

A defensive full-back and an attacking one was often a very common feature in Italian football, especially in catenaccio.

[daisy 138]

4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

A defensive full-back and an attacking one was often a very common feature in Italian football, especially in catenaccio.

But catenaccio was all about defending??

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

4 minutes ago, daisy said:

But catenaccio was all about defending??

Catenaccio was the style of defence. IIRC, it translated as "door bolt" and was often played with a sweeper. A problem with some of the earlier versions was that a centre-half was often expected to be a good ball player as well as man-marker so on occasion Italian managers would ask a full-back to do it instead, then the other one would stay close to his centre-half and make it a back three anyway.

Best example would be Helenio Herrera's Inter Milan defence with Giacinto Facchetti as an early wing-back on the left, and a much more conservative Tarcisio Burgnich on the right. 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

Sadly, Max is another one overrated. He is a good player, but he doesn’t really excel at anything. He’s a modern style attacking full back, but doesn’t score or assist anywhere near enough, does he? His end product is lacking, and doesn’t seem to be improving. Much as his all round play, more worryingly. 

Defensively, we have improved with Byram. And I don’t think Max offers enough from an attacking perspective, to sacrifice that.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[canarybubbles 1,915]

10 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Sadly, Max is another one overrated. He is a good player, but he doesn’t really excel at anything. He’s a modern style attacking full back, but doesn’t score or assist anywhere near enough, does he? His end product is lacking, and doesn’t seem to be improving. Much as his all round play, more worryingly. 

Defensively, we have improved with Byram. And I don’t think Max offers enough from an attacking perspective, to sacrifice that.

I tend to the opposite opinion. Byram has disappointed me so far this season (although I accept he has had to slot into several different positions, while Max hasn't). He's obviously better in the air than Max, but other than that I'm not sure he is any more defensively sound.

I agree, though, that Max doesn't seem to be improving, and may actually be regressing. Against that I suggest that a) he is being guided to be less gung-ho than in the past and Max's strength is going forward b) he and Sargent just don't work well together for whatever reason c) we all get stale when we've been in the same job for too long and it might be better for Max if he moves on. He's been a model professional and he owes us nothing.