Parma’s State of the Nation

[Mengo 825]

11 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

That’s been clear for a year or more  unless your related to the man or as thick as pig ****. 

Thanks for that , check my history    , surprised 😮 at you MYELLOW.   There are still people in here believing  in this charlatan.

[nutty nigel 7,656]

47 minutes ago, Mengo said:

Nutty from a distance , just get rid now of this fake person webber. SURELY , it's obvious to everybody what he is . Get gone and press the reset button. 

So I can go with that buddy. Straight from the hip. No messing. I think honest dislike is much more appropriate than manipulating quotes or outcomes to make the same point.

I would encourage him to go now because the issue is causing bad feeling. For instance fans on here are suggesting ways supporters in the ground can disrupt their team on Sunday. Stay away they shout from their armchairs. Have a mass walkout was another suggestion.

You're a breath of fresh air buddy. Brazil must be a better place to live than the midlands...

[Mengo 825]

8 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So I can go with that buddy. Straight from the hip. No messing. I think honest dislike is much more appropriate than manipulating quotes or outcomes to make the same point.

I would encourage him to go now because the issue is causing bad feeling. For instance fans on here are suggesting ways supporters in the ground can disrupt their team on Sunday. Stay away they shout from their armchairs. Have a mass walkout was another suggestion.

You're a breath of fresh air buddy. Brazil must be a better place to live than the midlands...

Thanks nutty. There is no advantage to prolonging Stuart webber here. It just makes thing more toxic. A CLEAN BREAK and he can go and do what he thinks he can do. In the meantime  we are at reset time . New era , lets embrace it and move forward.  Its so boring talking about stu webber, he's so yesterday. That era is well and truly dead. Let's move on.  For the sake of the most important  thing which is yours and many more die hards ( Norwich City  FC) this is the agenda not . , sophisticated  **** talk , this is common football, live it.. and love it. 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Mengo

[Morph 19]

For context @nutty nigel I was a bright eyed 10 year old on those bench seats in the City Stand in the 71/72 season. Time and life sees me so far from the hallowed turf now.

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy excellent discourse and explanation. We need a bright eyed manager that knows his players and how he can use them to disrupt the opposition to great effect, not a man that only sees his way as the way to play. A man that has digested the manual of tactics and can adjust and adapt to suit his team. Is there such a man? We can but hope.

[Midlands Yellow 4,115]

8 hours ago, Mengo said:

Thanks for that , check my history    , surprised 😮 at you MYELLOW.   There are still people in here believing  in this charlatan.

I meant anyone and everyone else who thought otherwise Mengo! I knew you were onside and saw the light long ago. 

[nutty nigel 7,656]

2 hours ago, Morph said:

For context @nutty nigel I was a bright eyed 10 year old on those bench seats in the City Stand in the 71/72 season. Time and life sees me so far from the hallowed turf now.

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy excellent discourse and explanation. We need a bright eyed manager that knows his players and how he can use them to disrupt the opposition to great effect, not a man that only sees his way as the way to play. A man that has digested the manual of tactics and can adjust and adapt to suit his team. Is there such a man? We can but hope.

We're not far apart buddy. I sat on those benches for a couple of seasons in the late sixties. Such happy memories of those times. One week the first team then the next week the reserves. We were talking about it yesterday at Still On The Ball. I think for bright eyed 10 year olds everything about the whole experience is magical. The ground, the surroundings, the supporters and of course the players and matches. All those things have changed now but the same joy can be found on every visit.

I remember you from when I first read the board Morph. Before I found enough courage to post

[Morph 19]

A follow on question to @Parma Ham's gone mouldy in light of his Cryuff 343 comments (really would love to appreciate the tactics part of the game and be able to watch a game and immediately notice what was going on) - could we implement your 343 with what we have and what would it look like?

GK Gunn

CB Duffy

CB Hanley

CB/Libero ?? Warner (Godfrey would have been great here or at DM)

DM Sorenson

BBM McLean / Gibbs

APM Sara

AM Nunez

IWL Rowe / Placheta / Sainz

IWR Hernandez / Fassanacht / Rowe

F9 Sargent / Barnes / Idah

 

Apologies for use of FM labels, hopefully you’ll correct me.

And if going off topic, sorry, maybe there should be a Parma’s Tactics School thread

Edited November 3, 2023 by Morph

[Mason 47 1,408]

3 hours ago, Morph said:

A follow on question to @Parma Ham's gone mouldy in light of his Cryuff 343 comments (really would love to appreciate the tactics part of the game and be able to watch a game and immediately notice what was going on) - could we implement your 343 with what we have and what would it look like?

GK Gunn

CB Duffy

CB Hanley

CB/Libero ?? Warner (Godfrey would have been great here or at DM)

DM Sorenson

BBM McLean / Gibbs

APM Sara

AM Nunez

IWL Rowe / Placheta / Sainz

IWR Hernandez / Fassanacht / Rowe

F9 Sargent / Barnes / Idah

 

Apologies for use of FM labels, hopefully you’ll correct me.

And if going off topic, sorry, maybe there should be a Parma’s Tactics School thread

I think if it were me (and trying to understand the broader point made by Parma) it would be 

      Stacey Duffy Gibson

Gibbs Forshaw McLean Sara

      Rowe Fassnacht Sainz

Assuming we are working with what is currently fit and available. The broader point being that it is on paper a 3-4-3 but in practice the tendencies & abilities of the players listed tells you it's likely not that formation at all. I doubt anyone would expect Stacey as a traditional CB or Sara best placed wide left.

What it does show up is the current system; in its ability to make it difficult to emphasise the best qualities in our players, whilst making it much more likely that the opposition can exploit their individual weaknesses. The fullbacks playing high and isolating a slow CB pairing, for example.

Its also very possible I might also be talking a load of cobblers.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Mason 47

[......and Smith must score. 1,365]

4 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

We're not far apart buddy. I sat on those benches for a couple of seasons in the late sixties. Such happy memories of those times. One week the first team then the next week the reserves. We were talking about it yesterday at Still On The Ball. I think for bright eyed 10 year olds everything about the whole experience is magical. The ground, the surroundings, the supporters and of course the players and matches. All those things have changed now but the same joy can be found on every visit.

I remember you from when I first read the board Morph. Before I found enough courage to post

Those rock hard benches hold fond memories for me too Nutty. Queuing up for around 90 mins to pay on the day. Wondering whether to invest 3d ( or was it 6d ? ) on one of those rock hard plastic cushions. All much slicker now and I doubt we’d want to go back to that but it was was it was back then and we thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was way past 10 years old so cynicism had set in but as you say at that age the whole experience is magical.

I suppose this message board was all a bit magical when we first started posting and it took a bit of a deep breath to start contributing but like football generally the board has descended into cynicism. But as hopeless addicts now it takes some courage NOT to post ( big grin )

 

[nutty nigel 7,656]

11 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

Those rock hard benches hold fond memories for me too Nutty. Queuing up for around 90 mins to pay on the day. Wondering whether to invest 3d ( or was it 6d ? ) on one of those rock hard plastic cushions. All much slicker now and I doubt we’d want to go back to that but it was was it was back then and we thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was way past 10 years old so cynicism had set in but as you say at that age the whole experience is magical.

I suppose this message board was all a bit magical when we first started posting and it took a bit of a deep breath to start contributing but like football generally the board has descended into cynicism. But as hopeless addicts now it takes some courage NOT to post ( big grin )

 

There's a joy in this place too Smithy. Whether it's Parma's masterclass or Big Vince's master bellyaching. You can find joy in both. Community is like that.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

@Morph if you search ‘Parma’s Tactics Masterclass’ you should find at least 21 threads that I used to do years ago (they got sequentially numbered quite quickly).

There should still be some quite interesting principles in there, often tied to the managerial approach of the time. 

Parma 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

@Morph 2

I just searched to check and here is the first post I found. Written 9th Dec 2019: Quite interesting I’d say and conveniently actually covers some of your requested points:

•  
•  
•  

Posted December 9, 2019

Nash Game Theory assumes that self-interest encourages competitors to find and use the optimum strategy in any given scenario. 

There is criticism - common when results are negative - of tactics, substitutions, Board, philosophy, strategy, lack of Plan B* and quality. 

There are pages of quick-fire simplistic solutions all over this board implying that ‘if only we did x, or if only we did y’ we’d be better off, surviving, thriving, competing better. 

In that context - and to make an empirical judgment - the only meaningful question is: ‘Are we doing the best we can with the parameters we have?’

The painful Nashian evaluation might well be that this is ‘as good as it gets’. *Plan B does not need to exist if Plan A is already the best you can do with what you have. Which is not the same as winning every (or in fact any) week.

Farke’s defence - and by extension the Club’s unless contradicted - is that the limits of the finances (ergo the limits of the self-sustaining model) ensure that we have a ‘youthful’ (trans: naive, inexperienced as well as ‘young in age’) team that is learning on the job, increasing in education and increasing in value as an asset, further sustaining the model. 

The concentration of youth in defence (and conversely age in attack), can be observed to be the photo-negative of the typical approach whereby (to exaggerate to make the point) old sweats - battle-hardened, scarred and negative - have the appropriate, fearful, danger-lurks-around-every-corner mindset to keep goals out, whilst young, fearless, carefree, try-anything-once, zippy-footed youngsters bear down spontaneously on goal, making it hard to determine their next move and increasing the chances of scoring. 

That teams and players are significantly better en bloc at Premier level can be clearly noted. Systems are as strong as their weakest point and teams have the funds, depth of resources and analysis to minimise, amortise and prioritise their weaknesses. 

The optimum strategy to disturb Norwich’s tactics philosophy might be observed to be a well-coordinated high press, with dynamic physicality and a particular focus on the dedicated tempo-playmaker (vid the targeting of Leitner).

But wait. That’s not exactly news is it? Didn’t everyone know to do that last year in the Championship? 

A clear example of how and why it is greater quality, finer coordination - not Norwich failing in some way - that sees our negative outcomes repeating can be seen in the intelligence, unity and coordination of the high press against us. A press that contains 6 players moving in synch not 3 makes a fundamental difference. Players that can mentally repeat this process better, for longer and can then do something penetrative and meaningful with the ball after they have achieved a turnover  (perhaps at the fourth time of trying). They then do it all again after making an assist or scoring. Do not underestimate how impressive this is. It just doesn’t exist to anything like this level in the Championship. And all Premier teams can do it. 

Pukki’s exceptional goalscoring of course bailed us out multiple times from some average performances last season, he now gets less space, less chances and the increased pressure on defending inevitably leads to more exposure to danger and less creation. In the Championship other teams miss and waste a far higher percentage of chances, encouraging and rewarding more open strategies (to the point of cavalier: vid Alex Neil). It can be observed that you simply don’t have to focus so hard on defending and minimising chance creation against you under these parameters. That you may not be mentally, tactically or physically equipped to amend this failing at a later date at a higher level can also be observed. 

Buendia -  arguably second in influence over outcomes last season behind Pukki - has been less able to exploit a half second of time and space than he was a full second of it in the Championship. Conversely Cantwell, statistically far less effect in the Championship than Buendia (and others) - indeed he was arguably peripheral for much of the Championship campaign - has shown himself well able to replicate what he can do at the top level with comparatively much less time to do it in. This does not inevitably meant that he will dominate - or even succeed - if returned to the Championship. 

This is what scouts and Coaches really look for. Not really FM2019 style stats on who has done what - anybody can find and filter those - but rather ‘does what he does translate to a higher level? Will he be able to do the same thing with less time, under greater pressure, when he has to think faster, when his mistakes cost him more, when he is exposed to brighter lights?’
You might note that England has typically dominated smaller teams - often beating them far more heavily in qualifying than other major nations - only to regularly come up short when in the latter stages of a tournament. This is why. The style of play and methodology  (until recently) dominated at lower levels and was conversely ill-suited to higher levels. One does not prove the other. 

In the Championship goals are often scored by a relatively limited number of players. Often not lots of midfielders or defenders score repeatedly (we were an exception) and coaching dangers can be reasonably targeted on limited areas. In the Premier it is far less the case that you can discount some areas, players and possibilities as nearly all players are capable of causing problems if left unattended. 

Norwich have also made a stylistic decision that has implications for the type of player they recruit and play as Farke has repeatedly stressed. The approach of our contemporaries is instructive here to counterpoint our philosophy. Villa and Sheffield United have followed the tried-and-tested received wisdom of the ‘winning the mini-League’ and adopting defensive-minded strategies with high physicality and athleticism to spoil, disrupt and compete with similar sides and restrict chances of big beatings - with the hope of the odd ‘cup win’ style victory against an off-colour superior. Heightened physicality -  often (outside of very high prices) with a corollary of less fluid technicality - can thus be observed as an advance acceptance of mini-league membership. We decided to do different, aware of the risks. 

We can be observed to have attempted (actually ‘be copying’) the style of top level clubs in a desire to dominate possession and win games by ‘being better’ than the opposition. This is an ambitious and attractive approach that - let us not forget - was well able to dominate the Championship where ‘spoilers’ abound. It can be observed - currently - to be a style of play suited to playing better teams ( Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, even Liverpool) who have a similar approach, albeit with far greater resources. 

The sit-tight-and-counter-attack approach is far safer tactically (disclaimer: it might be observed that this is actually what we de-facto did vs Man City) and whilst it concedes possession, it does not threaten your own defensive shape in the way that fluid attacking and brave chance-creation often does. 

The apparent bete-noire for Norwich of weak set-piece defending via zonal marking is true and not true. Zonal marking exists in man-to-man marking systems too. Putting men on the posts is a zone no? The perceived danger of an opponent ‘getting a run on you’ via Zonal should be negated by simply filling the area they want to run into by having lots of strategically-placed bodies there (which we do). Opponents can’t often (if ever) score from headers from the penalty spot outwards, so we are not talking about a huge strip of zonal land here. Zonal can encourage the keeper to come more, which can equally be  good or bad. The truth is that lots of goals are scored by set pieces and good delivery is hard for anyone - and any system - to defend. Players switching off is switching off, zonal or not. If you defend a lot, you will logically have to defend more set pieces. If you defend more of them, you’ll concede more from them. Concessions from zonal do look awful though, so they may imprint deeper as a negative image on all. I would be lying if I said I thought all Norwich defenders looked comfortable with the current set piece defensive set up however. 

Money cannot be excluded in the margins of a game either. Many Premier clubs pay high sums for game-changing Plan B subs. A Crouch, Fellaini, Carroll,  a set piece specialist (throws, direct free kicks, sharp delivery). We have a good, balanced squad with interchangeable players. We cannot buy top end weapons to sit on the bench ‘just in case’ as others can. 

As Nash knows, there is no point in Plan B if the odds still favour Plan A (even if ‘pub’ humans like change for change’s sake in the mistaken belief that it must inherently be better). There will be plenty of flaws in a 6/10 strategy and this board is full of some of them. Unfortunately too often the ‘solutions’ are simply anything and everything that the current strategy isn’t. This is easy to prescribe, though it in no way proves that any such change would derive a better outcome. It is Farke and Webber’s raison d’etre, their life’s work to achieve the best outcome, the maximum output from the resources available. Racing a Fiat against a Ferrari takes more than a good driver however. 

We have a clear identity. A clear methodology and style of play. It is now well-drilled and established in the minds of the players. There is no confusion, no lack of cohesion, no misunderstanding of what is required individually and collectively. The players purchased fit the model well, the players grown and nurtured are well-schooled in what the coach needs and wants to achieve. This has and will create a good ‘floor’ to outcomes. Our clarity and consistency of message should and will ensure that performance levels - over an extended period (including perhaps the Championship) remain above the ‘floor’ level. 

It would be naive and disingenuous to imagine that no corollary ‘ceiling’ exists under a self-sustaining model however. Over time - in theory - there are no limits to the model, though a 2020 Championship team without Pukki might well not repeat the surprising and wonderful victory of last season. Goals are much harder to replace than anything else - regardless of the elegant construction of any model - and they can cover a multitude of sins. If buying goals is hard, growing them is harder. 

If the ruthless approach to transfers this season is due to a long-term infrastructure plan that included not only the training ground, but also the stadium itself, this might be a vote-winner. Giving those who earned success a fair chance is fair-minded, though perhaps romantic in professional sport. Providing an educational platform for young, ascending assets should be economically sound and admirably advertises the model to tomorrow’s candidates, though is quite possibly compromising in immediate sporting terms. 

There is of course an issue with long-term vision and golden promises of jam tomorrow. Like it or not in our Football world there is the Premier League and far, far behind - in media, money, global interest, exposure, excitement - there is everything else. 

There is no linear progression, football has changed. Money has changed it dramatically. Small teams historically are now strong economic entities with rich (maybe distant) owners, huge historic clubs floundering - despite maintaining gates at turnstiles - because it pales into insignificance versus TV revenues. Conversely you need a bigger stadium out of the Premier League when you no longer have guaranteed demand to fill it and - horribly - you could shut the stadium and show all your games online via Amazon and make a fortune while at the top tier. Our model is a good one, an elegant one, one to be proud of and support, much of it of eternal good sense regardless of means. Though in truth it was born out of necessity, dressed as choice. It is retrospective justification for what needs to be. We would spend more if we had it. 

We are doing as well as we can - the manager, the players, the sporting team, the board - with what we have. Nash would be proud. 

Parma

Edited December 10, 2019 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

—————

Parma 

[Morph 19]

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy thank you for that. When a reader on this forum gives up on reading a lot of threads because of the banter one can miss the threads that are really good. Appreciate your time in finding that.

[Barham Blitz 664]

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy - it was actually your Masterclass series (along with Ricardo's match reports) that turned me into a regular lurker on this forum in the years before I started posting. All fascinating stuff - I have always had an interest in the tactical side of the game, but you always managed to bring in little elements that made me think about things differently.  Many - if belated - thanks.

[Monty13 2,267]

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy That’s a pretty depressing read unfortunately given what happened over the last few years, but thanks for reposting it.

[Morph 19]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy That’s a pretty depressing read unfortunately given what happened over the last few years, but thanks for reposting it.

Yeah sounds like the last few years they’ve really screwed the pooch, so to speak

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

Disastrous situation for the Board. They would have been desperate for weeks for Wagner to do acceptably well and stay in post until Knapper gets his feet under the table.

It really is very, very poor now though. I think ignoring the lifelessness is damaging. 

Solution?

What about a holding pattern for a few weeks with Neil Adams taking temporary charge. Use the hypothetical new manager bounce to at least engender some spirit and enthusiasm. Players will know that Adams will have the ear of the new manager, so the current downing of tools should be allayed. 

The players are poor, flawed and drifting however. So that is only temporary. 

Once a reasonably short on-site acclimatisation period has taken place for Knapper, it might not be the worst solution to take someone like Per Mertesacker - currently Head of the Arsenal Academy - and encourage him to bring some of the brightest youngsters.

It can be surprising how even a small injection of quality can make quite a difference. Operationally and psychologically. You must present a credible way forward (for the remaining players). 

Momentum is one of the most powerful forces in football. Right up there with assists and goals. 

It goes in two directions of course. 

Parma 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Indy 3,333]

3 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Disastrous situation for the Board. They would have been desperate for weeks for Wagner to do acceptably well and stay in post until Knapper gets his feet under the table.

It really is very, very poor now though. I think ignoring the lifelessness is damaging. 

Solution?

What about a holding pattern for a few weeks with Neil Adams taking temporary charge. Use the hypothetical new manager bounce to at least engender some spirit and enthusiasm. Players will know that Adams will have the ear of the new manager, so the current downing of tools should be allayed. 

The players are poor, flawed and drifting however. So that is only temporary. 

Once a reasonably short on site acclimatisation period has taken place for Knapper, it might not be the worst solution to take someone like Per Mertesacker - currently Head of the Arsenal Academy - and encourage him to bring some of the brightest youngsters.

It can be surprising how even a small injection of quality can make quite a difference. Operationally and psychologically. You must present a credible way forward. 

Momentum is one of the most powerful forces in football. Right up there with assists and goals. 

It goes in two directions of course. 

Parma 

 

 

Isn’t Knapper on a month leave? In contact with the club, so if he’s got someone lined up like Per then surely it’s already being discussed or agreed with Arsenal? 

[Robert N. LiM 4,646]

On 05/11/2023 at 18:28, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Disastrous situation for the Board. They would have been desperate for weeks for Wagner to do acceptably well and stay in post until Knapper gets his feet under the table.

Exactly. He was the caretaker coach. We now need a caretaker for the caretaker

[Fuzzar 1,705]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Exactly. He was the caretaker coach. We now need a caretaker for the caretaker

We're going to need an undertaker at this rate. 

[Big Vince 325]

On 02/11/2023 at 21:47, nutty nigel said:

I think most of these topics are like the peed up the wall one. They stem from a dislike of a person rather than what we actually see, hear and read. 

So, that wasn't what my post was about but I'll happily answer, however again it will be primarily from what I see at Carrow Road.

There was a distinct style that particularly suited the players we had. But it wasn't obvious to all in all those early years. 2017/18 very few people liked the style describing it as fannying around at the back. It became a style to celebrate after Oct 2018 but then became fannying around at the back in late 2019. It remained so until lockdown. I then didn't go again (except for one game in Dec 2020) until Aug 2021 where it definitely was error - ridden fannying around at the back.

That may sound odd to you. But the first managerial change I saw was Lol morgan to Ron Saunders in 1969. What followed were nearly two seasons of attritional football that you would be hard-pressed to pin an identity to. But come the glorious 1971/72 season we were awesome and many fans will say to this day that they enjoyed that football more than anything since. 1972/73 in the top tier was back to the attritional stuff and it took the signing of a werewolf to keep us up. The next November Saunders was sacked.

You'll probably think this is nutty running on about nothing. But what it should show is most long term visions only last until the first team stops winning football matches. So I take it all with a pinch of salt...

Actually, Ron Saunders resigned after a bust up with Sir Arthur and with Man City waiting in the wings after tapping him up. Shades of Mike Walker - Chase - Everton.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Big Vince

[nutty nigel 7,656]

1 hour ago, Big Vince said:

Actually, Ron Saunders resigned after a bust up with Sir Arthur and with Man City waiting in the wings after tapping him up. Shades of Mike Walker - Chase - Everton.

Nobody wanted Saunders out. It was still Watling out at that time.

When the late great Sir Arthur became Chairman one of the first things he said was "the supporters say "Watling out" but I say Watling in." He knew they'd be better together and they were.

But of course you wouldn't like the Norfolk Socialist Vince...

[essex canary 515]

9 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Nobody wanted Saunders out. It was still Watling out at that time.

When the late great Sir Arthur became Chairman one of the first things he said was "the supporters say "Watling out" but I say Watling in." He knew they'd be better together and they were.

But of course you wouldn't like the Norfolk Socialist Vince...

There is no Norfolk socialist. The true Suffolk Socialist George Orwell is turning in his grave.

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

32 minutes ago, essex canary said:

There is no Norfolk socialist. The true Suffolk Socialist George Orwell is turning in his grave.

You're  not THE Norfolk socialist then? I must say that I am flabbergasted. 

[Number9 272]

On 05/11/2023 at 18:28, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Disastrous situation for the Board. They would have been desperate for weeks for Wagner to do acceptably well and stay in post until Knapper gets his feet under the table.

It really is very, very poor now though. I think ignoring the lifelessness is damaging. 

Solution?

What about a holding pattern for a few weeks with Neil Adams taking temporary charge. Use the hypothetical new manager bounce to at least engender some spirit and enthusiasm. Players will know that Adams will have the ear of the new manager, so the current downing of tools should be allayed. 

The players are poor, flawed and drifting however. So that is only temporary. 

Once a reasonably short on-site acclimatisation period has taken place for Knapper, it might not be the worst solution to take someone like Per Mertesacker - currently Head of the Arsenal Academy - and encourage him to bring some of the brightest youngsters.

It can be surprising how even a small injection of quality can make quite a difference. Operationally and psychologically. You must present a credible way forward (for the remaining players). 

Momentum is one of the most powerful forces in football. Right up there with assists and goals. 

It goes in two directions of course. 

Parma 

 

 

This

[Big Vince 325]

17 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Nobody wanted Saunders out. It was still Watling out at that time.

When the late great Sir Arthur became Chairman one of the first things he said was "the supporters say "Watling out" but I say Watling in." He knew they'd be better together and they were.

But of course you wouldn't like the Norfolk Socialist Vince...

So how do you explain Norwich fans wanting Watling out after he took the club from the bottom of the third division to the first division for the first time and then Delia taking the club from the EPL to L1 in four years with the fans not calling for her to go?

[nutty nigel 7,656]

5 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

So how do you explain Norwich fans wanting Watling out after he took the club from the bottom of the third division to the first division for the first time and then Delia taking the club from the EPL to L1 in four years with the fans not calling for her to go?

Where have you been Vincey. There's been continual calls for her to go. There was even that famous St Andrews Hall shindig in 2009 full of calls for her to go. There have been threads on here every time we've had a losing run for the last 20 years calling for her to go. You yourself continually call for her to go. Not many mind Wynnie staying...

 Now your Uncle Bob got the same. He had an EGM at the Andrews calling for him to go when he'd hardly got his feet under the table. Then more calls for him to go at various points throughout what you describe as a glorious 10 year reign.

The late great sir Arthur got the same treatment during his glorious reign.

You see it play out and then die down as our club's fortunes fluctuate. You won't take any notice of me but I'm sure you'd enjoy our great club more if you realised we win some and lose a few. 

[Big Vince 325]

On 07/11/2023 at 17:05, nutty nigel said:

Where have you been Vincey. There's been continual calls for her to go. There was even that famous St Andrews Hall shindig in 2009 full of calls for her to go. There have been threads on here every time we've had a losing run for the last 20 years calling for her to go. You yourself continually call for her to go. Not many mind Wynnie staying...

 Now your Uncle Bob got the same. He had an EGM at the Andrews calling for him to go when he'd hardly got his feet under the table. Then more calls for him to go at various points throughout what you describe as a glorious 10 year reign.

The late great sir Arthur got the same treatment during his glorious reign.

You see it play out and then die down as our club's fortunes fluctuate. You won't take any notice of me but I'm sure you'd enjoy our great club more if you realised we win some and lose a few. 

I think you are being a tad disingenuous about pressure put on Delia to go. She has never faced any serious, concerted barracking from the terraces nor any ongoing serious protests of any kind. Certainly not anywhere near Chase levels. Any discontent has usually been directed at her human shields whether it be managers, sporting director, CEO, etc. Notably the Bedsheet Twenty. This is because fans haven't had the balls to attack her directly. We have seen this numerous times. As for Wynnie, well, he's arguably the most malign influence at the club, but keeps it quiet studiously whilst using Delia as his human shield.

You haven't answered my question as to why Norwich fans were calling for Watling to go after he took the club from the bottom of the third division to the first division for the first time? And to Wembley for the first time in 73. Norwich fans really are numpties, aren't they? Criticising good owners and letting bad ones off the hook. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Big Vince

[nutty nigel 7,656]

47 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

I think you are being a tad disingenuous about pressure put on Delia to go. She has never faced any serious, concerted barracking from the terraces nor any ongoing serious protests of any kind. Certainly not anywhere near Chase levels. Any discontent has usually been directed at her human shields whether it be managers, sporting director, CEO, etc. Notably the Bedsheet Twenty. This is because fans haven't had the balls to attack her directly. We have seen this numerous times. As for Wynnie, well, he's arguably the most malign influence at the club, but keeps it quiet studiously whilst using Delia as his human shield.

You haven't answered my question as to why Norwich fans were calling for Watling to go after he took the club from the bottom of the third division to the first division for the first time? And to Wembley for the first time in 73. Norwich fans really are numpties, aren't they? Criticising good owners and letting bad ones off the hook. 

So I post what's I've seen, read and heard over the time I supported our club. That's not good enough for you. You want me to put myself into the minds of folk who made disgraceful chants to Watling and surmise what's in their minds when, assuming they're not brown bread, they're not making disgraceful chants against Delia. Kindest thing I can do is suggest that they realised the errors of their ways.

As for why Delia and Michael haven't had Chase levels of abuse. From what I've seen, read and heard it could be because they only put money into the club whereas your Uncle Bob only took money out. It may not be that but there are Chase Out veterans on here so you could ask them?

 

[Duncan Edwards 2,274]

It’s the same old story and the same old narrators every time we hit a rough period.

When things are going well, Delia has taken a back seat and allowed professionals like McNally or Webber take control and run the club. As soon as that particular regime hits the skids, the omnipotent octogenarian has once again seized control like a power hungry harridan.

It’s remarkable really. When we do we’ll she’s somehow been cowed into a corner and as soon as we enter a rough period, she is desperately clinging to her Doll’s house in order to facilitate Tom’s Train Set.

Every bad thing that happens is because of her, every good thing is in spite of her. And she only “runs the club” when things are belly up.

Now, I’m not against investment, new ownership, none of it. But if you truly believe - as so many appear to - that she only has involvement when things are bad, I’m surprised that some of you manage to cross a road, tie your shoelaces or don’t make toast in the bath.

The club is in a serious period of transition throughout the back of house. Id have already sacked Wagner but I can at least see why they haven’t. I can also understand the handover periods. It’s important for Attanasio to understand the finances and community responsibilities and Knapper walking in to this without a handover would be much like when Cameron chucked the keys to No 10 in the air following the Brexit referendum.

We all know it’s shoite at the moment, but surely people can appreciate the complexities of the bigger changes happening?