Parma’s State of the Nation

[Monty13 2,234]

6 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Short of there being a legal document saying we had to let Buendia go, and I have never seen that suggested, then indeed we had a choice, to keep or to sell. The problem with claiming selling Buendia was a massive act of self-harm is that it rests on the absolute certainty that if we had kept him (and so not had that £33m extra to spend) then we would have performed better that season. But I know of no way of demonstrating that as a probability, let alone proving it as a certainty.😍

I do agree Purple in part. However I think the argument is, or at least mine would be, you’re right we don’t know if we would have still been relegated with him (I suspect we likely would) or whether we even would have been much better than the previous PL campaign.

The issue is his sale cut the legs off that season before it began, probably led to Farkes dismissal, Smiths appointment and a period of declining fortunes we are just now showing signs of recovering out of with the help of Attanasio.

It may be long term it kickstarted a series of events that leads to a stronger future, but that certainly wasn’t intentional. What’s undeniable is the money spent from his sale did nothing to improve our fortunes that season.

[BigFish 1,987]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

Yes, I wonder if those who argued the opposite will hold their hands up. Feels unlikely.

I don't mind admitting that I thought at the time it was likely that Buendia wanted to double his wages and avoid another likely unsuccessful releagation fight. As such it was logical to think the club had no choice. Events and @Parma Ham's gone mouldy have persuaded me otherwise. But the problem with alternate histories is they compare the subjective with the known outcome. Should we have kept Buendia our transfer budget would have probably amounted to 1 x EPL player (a CB or Skipp replacement) and 2 x loans. The likely outcome is another unsuccessful fight against relegation. In this situation the self same posters who rake up Buendiagate would have equal and opposite critiques. The fact I was wrong in my opinion doesn't necessarily mean I think they were right.

That said I take Parm's point on sporting momentum to heart. I see that, and now agree. This is a post about opinions, not of opinions.

Edited March 23 by BigFish

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

37 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I do agree Purple in part. However I think the argument is, or at least mine would be, you’re right we don’t know if we would have still been relegated with him (I suspect we likely would) or whether we even would have been much better than the previous PL campaign.

The issue is his sale cut the legs off that season before it began, probably led to Farkes dismissal, Smiths appointment and a period of declining fortunes we are just now showing signs of recovering out of with the help of Attanasio.

It may be long term it kickstarted a series of events that leads to a stronger future, but that certainly wasn’t intentional. What’s undeniable is the money spent from his sale did nothing to improve our fortunes that season.

Monty, the counter argument is that if we had held onto Buendia the lack of extra signings (which would have caused uproar here) would just as much have cut the legs off the season! I understand Parma's argument, and particularly the point about the psychological damage it may have caused.

But there was also the potential for psychological damage in going into an Premier League season with some glaring gaps in the squad (and yes, I get the claim that the extra money ended up being mainly wasted, but that is a side issue to the overall argument.) My point is that I don't see there is an absolute certainty here.

PS. Just seen that Big Fish is making a similar point.

Edited March 23 by PurpleCanary

[Monty13 2,234]

34 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Monty, the counter argument is that if we had held onto Buendia the lack of extra signings (which would have caused uproar here) would just as much have cut the legs off the season! I understand Parma's argument, and particularly the point about the psychological damage it may have caused.

But there was also the potential for psychological damage in going into an Premier League season with some glaring gaps in the squad (and yes, I get the claim that the extra money ended up being mainly wasted, but that is a side issue to the overall argument.) My point is that I don't see there is an absolute certainty here.

PS. Just seen that Big Fish is making a similar point.

I’m not sure. I agree it would have been met with much nashing of teeth on here but I doubt the psychological damage would have been so pronounced. It’s clear we bought Tzolis and Sargent with an eye in future value, a few older heads and freebies would have been far cheaper. Let’s not pretend there was no money to spend, we brought in more than Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis.

Of course nothing is certain, I would just argue the effect of losing Buendia was highly probable to be highly destructive and played out as expected IMO. Yes keeping him was also massively uncertain, I would simply argue it was less so.

[BigFish 1,987]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

I’m not sure. I agree it would have been met with much nashing of teeth on here but I doubt the psychological damage would have been so pronounced. It’s clear we bought Tzolis and Sargent with an eye in future value, a few older heads and freebies would have been far cheaper. Let’s not pretend there was no money to spend, we brought in more than Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis.

Of course nothing is certain, I would just argue the effect of losing Buendia was highly probable to be highly destructive and played out as expected IMO. Yes keeping him was also massively uncertain, I would simply argue it was less so.

Arguably this is true, but not the whole story. Sacking Farke which many fans, even maybe a majority, called for and appointing Smith, who nobody really called for, had a greater long term impact. That is not what the SD model is for. And as it happens the transfer business that Summer doesn't look so bad in hindsight. Sargeant is talismanic for our season this year. Tzolis is ripping up Bundeslegia II, PLM is knocking on the door of the French national team, Gilmour is a top end EPL player, Rashica won the League in Turkey. Who knows, we might even break even.

Webber was trapped by the idea another relegation was unacceptable. If we had accepted it was likely and planned ahead last season wouldn't have seen such a decline. He rolled the dice and failed, but it is understandable failure. The price we paid was that precious momentum. So yes keep Buendia, keep Farke, get relegated, bounce back better. Ultimately there isn't the patience in the club, or football for this.

[essex canary 496]

1 minute ago, BigFish said:

Arguably this is true, but not the whole story. Sacking Farke which many fans, even maybe a majority, called for and appointing Smith, who nobody really called for, had a greater long term impact. That is not what the SD model is for. And as it happens the transfer business that Summer doesn't look so bad in hindsight. Sargeant is talismanic for our season this year. Tzolis is ripping up Bundeslegia II, PLM is knocking on the door of the French national team, Gilmour is a top end EPL player, Rashica won the League in Turkey. Who knows, we might even break even.

Webber was trapped by the idea another relegation was unacceptable. If we had accepted it was likely and planned ahead last season wouldn't have seen such a decline. He rolled the dice and failed, but it is understandable failure. The price we paid was that precious momentum. So yes keep Buendia, keep Farke, get relegated, bounce back better. Ultimately there isn't the patience in the club, or football for this.

Of the 5 players you mention in the first paragraph the first 4 never really added anything to our team and the 5th. one wasn't able to at the outset. That together with the Farke to Smith change and lack of financial control ought to raise queries about the so dominant DoF model.

[Monty13 2,234]

7 hours ago, king canary said:

Yes, I wonder if those who argued the opposite will hold their hands up. Feels unlikely.

The amount of obnoxious abuse one poster gave for even suggesting this was a possibility…I also doubt it.

[Fen Canary 825]

22 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Arguably this is true, but not the whole story. Sacking Farke which many fans, even maybe a majority, called for and appointing Smith, who nobody really called for, had a greater long term impact. That is not what the SD model is for. And as it happens the transfer business that Summer doesn't look so bad in hindsight. Sargeant is talismanic for our season this year. Tzolis is ripping up Bundeslegia II, PLM is knocking on the door of the French national team, Gilmour is a top end EPL player, Rashica won the League in Turkey. Who knows, we might even break even.

Webber was trapped by the idea another relegation was unacceptable. If we had accepted it was likely and planned ahead last season wouldn't have seen such a decline. He rolled the dice and failed, but it is understandable failure. The price we paid was that precious momentum. So yes keep Buendia, keep Farke, get relegated, bounce back better. Ultimately there isn't the patience in the club, or football for this.

If you buy nobody and suffer another meek relegation there’s no guarantee that you come back up the following season though. Even if we had Buendia for one more Prem season he would have likely been off if we’d been relegated again, a player of that calibre isn’t going to be happy yo-yoing for eternity and then we’d be back to where we are now anyway having to alter the style of play because it simply didn’t work without him.

I don’t blame the club for rolling the dice. In hindsight Smith was a poor choice but I can understand the thinking of trying to switch to a more pragmatic style, it’s just that it’s taken a few transfer windows to alter the personnel on the pitch to play that way 

[essex canary 496]

13 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

What do you suggest ? 'the Not Completely Director of Football,'..... the.. 'He's Director but we dont let him Direct ,Director of Football', the  'Run it past Gollum first DofF'?.... The more you give your opinions the more i realise what a sad sad person you are.

I hope you are aware that all that bile, hate  and Negativity will be having an impact on your health, both physical and mental. Go feed the ducks, but dont expect a return on that feed, or any perks or thanks. 

Clearly you didn't read the thread concerning abusive posters earlier this week.

Edited March 23 by essex canary

[essex canary 496]

2 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

i did and i ignored it, you abuse the position you have, so ferk off.  oh, and by the way , nothing i wrote was abusive , but do feel free to tell teacher. ...which is no more than id expect from the likes of you..... a rather odd and sad man.

Parma himself made the report so I am happy to report you soiling his thread.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, essex canary said:

Parma himself made the report so I am happy to report you soiling his thread.

Oooo, the great Parma, i'm scared now. Ive got the self regarding army after me. Clinging to the big boys coat tails for protection from the horrid mans truthful words? every word you write makes you look more pathetic.  Report what you like to who you like, but i guarantee they dont like you.

[essex canary 496]

39 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Oooo, the great Parma, i'm scared now. Ive got the self regarding army after me. Clinging to the big boys coat tails for protection from the horrid mans truthful words? every word you write makes you look more pathetic.  Report what you like to who you like, but i guarantee they dont like you.

The leader of the 15 year old playground gang in all his glory.

[BigFish 1,987]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

If you buy nobody and suffer another meek relegation there’s no guarantee that you come back up the following season though. Even if we had Buendia for one more Prem season he would have likely been off if we’d been relegated again, a player of that calibre isn’t going to be happy yo-yoing for eternity and then we’d be back to where we are now anyway having to alter the style of play because it simply didn’t work without him.

I don’t blame the club for rolling the dice. In hindsight Smith was a poor choice but I can understand the thinking of trying to switch to a more pragmatic style, it’s just that it’s taken a few transfer windows to alter the personnel on the pitch to play that way 

This is a valid point, and runs counter to what seems general opinion. Not that makes it wrong, back to the issue of counter factuals.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

58 minutes ago, essex canary said:

The leader of the 15 year old playground gang in all his glory.

Whiney boy cries bullying when told the truth, grow some.

[Monty13 2,234]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

If you buy nobody and suffer another meek relegation there’s no guarantee that you come back up the following season though. Even if we had Buendia for one more Prem season he would have likely been off if we’d been relegated again, a player of that calibre isn’t going to be happy yo-yoing for eternity and then we’d be back to where we are now anyway having to alter the style of play because it simply didn’t work without him.

I don’t blame the club for rolling the dice. In hindsight Smith was a poor choice but I can understand the thinking of trying to switch to a more pragmatic style, it’s just that it’s taken a few transfer windows to alter the personnel on the pitch to play that way 

I don’t think anybody was suggesting we’d have kept Buendia after another relegation, perhaps even more unlikely we’d keep hold if he’d steered us to an unlikely survival. The fact we sold him wasn’t an issue given our model, the timing and manner was.

[RobJames 881]

We didn't 'sell' him, he left. Just as so many others have done. All we can do is get the most favourable deal.

The idea that we can sell a player at our choosing is ludicrous. If a PL club offers Rowe a deal - treble plus his current wages, a six figure signing on fee what should we do, assuming there is no release clause ? Dig our heels in and have a very unhappy player ? Great message that would send to any prospective youth player considering signing for us.

However, that does not fit with the image some like to hold about the club. One that has a grasping board selling off the brightest talent, usually against their wishes. Then using the money to keep the club afloat due to absolute financial mismanagement. They will point to other Championship (and PL) clubs where players are kept and not allowed to leave to further their career. Only at Norwich does this happen, they claim.

In reality City are not as big or important as some delude themselves. Even with PL money. Players are aware of this. If they see us as a stepping stone. So be it. We get the benefit of their ability and when they move upwards we gain extra funds to increase the playing budget.

[essex canary 496]

15 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Whiney boy cries bullying when told the truth, grow some.

FYI hot from today's press.

[BigFish 1,987]

3 hours ago, essex canary said:

FYI hot from today's press.

Didn;t have you marked down as an Observer reader 😀

[essex canary 496]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Didn;t have you marked down as an Observer reader 😀

Just proves how wrong you can be.

[essex canary 496]

2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Never heard of the Correlation/causation conundrum you fool? You have no idea of my earnings or my behaviour at school. Its just another example of you pulling random shoite out of your arris and shouting'hey presto' as if you'd discover the cure for world poverty. Youve decided im a bully because i call out your horseshoite,  i am now suggesting that you are a 'financial bully' who thinks having a few quid allows you to ride roughshod over the rules and policies of the Club. Go suck on that while people snigger at your failings on the 18th.

Yes thanks. I picked up on it in my teen years when watching Columbo.