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Parma’s State of the Nation

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I’d guess…

 

1) That profiteering wasn’t why they got involved. 
 

2) For the entire time they’ve been involved, there have been people chucking sh1t at them while doing **** all themselves. When you’re in your 80s, I think it’s fair enough to look to hand off. Yet, there they are, agreeing to stick around for as long as needed for the good of the club they support. 
 

 

Or clinging desperately to power like a despotic dictator. Depending on whether we’re good or bad at the time. 

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54 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Indeed but what is puzzling is:

1. Why, in the event that the Club is successful that is surely the objective, they wouldn't want anything back?

2. Why they are now entertaining MA whose philosophy is somewhat different?

I can't answer that. I can tell you what has happened but I can't tell you what will/could/might happen. And I'm not a mind reader.

However I can repeat and anology that I have made before concerning that poor sycamore tree that was chopped down in it's prime. I see it's been carted away now. Whether that is for firewood or someone in the USA bought it I don't know. Perhaps it's in a pot in Milwaukee being decorated with dollars. Maybe even a large vase. But it's roots are still in the ground unable to feed it.

You and I have both fed our club when it's been sickandmore but we remain in Norwich. So far we haven't been offered a vase. Not even the water to put in a vase. I guess we'll heve to wait and see...

My money is that you won't get rinsed by AI Essex. 

Regardless, nobody seems to be able to back up poor Vincey's assertion that all the loans have been repaid.

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10 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

As of 2017...

Smith and Jones hold 327,309 ordinary shares in Norwich City Football Club Plc and 3,025 B Shares. 

268,456 of the ordinary shares were allotted to them in various share issues between 1998 and 2007 for a total cost of approximately £5,953,000. Michael and Delia bought Mr Watling's stake of 58,653 shares in 1998 for an undisclosed figure as well as 200 of Mr Lockwood's shares in 1997 for an undisclosed figure. Assuming these were purchased as the prevailing price of £18.50 per share, these shares would have cost an additional approx. £1,089,000. Bringing the total cost of c.£7,042,000. 

The 3,025 B Shares were issued at a cost of £100 per share. Giving a total cost of £302,500. 

This gives a total cost for all the shares (and excluding any loans/debts written-off etc.) of c.£7.3m. 

These figures have been sourced from publicly available information at beta.companieshouse.gov.uk. 


So how much did you're Uncle Bob invest again? Although Chase Builders did write out a few cheques when trying to raise the dead. 

I think you will get rinsed Vincey.

But my point remains. The loans were not converted into shares. They were paid back during the Lambert era. Check the annual accounts at that time.

You have conveniently overlooked all the money they have wasted on compensation to bad managerial appointments and also the likes of Moxey, etc. Smith, Roeder, Gunn, Grant, Wagner, the Blarneymeister should never have got the job in the first place.

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12 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I can't answer that. I can tell you what has happened but I can't tell you what will/could/might happen. And I'm not a mind reader.

However I can repeat and anology that I have made before concerning that poor sycamore tree that was chopped down in it's prime. I see it's been carted away now. Whether that is for firewood or someone in the USA bought it I don't know. Perhaps it's in a pot in Milwaukee being decorated with dollars. Maybe even a large vase. But it's roots are still in the ground unable to feed it.

You and I have both fed our club when it's been sickandmore but we remain in Norwich. So far we haven't been offered a vase. Not even the water to put in a vase. I guess we'll heve to wait and see...

My money is that you won't get rinsed by AI Essex. 

Regardless, nobody seems to be able to back up poor Vincey's assertion that all the loans have been repaid.

I am very sympathetic to the argument that charity begins at home.

The problem is that Delia now prefers to want to help out American pension funds at a rate of 11% interest rather than provide a Block M OAP concession for a loyal supporter.

There are a few other options she could have had too. There is a rock star who gave away a £5 million house to the homeless. The EDP today once again contains an article from the King's Lynn Owner/Chairman who is always very transparent about his Football Club which is struggling.

In general Delia has been generous in terms of finance (as far as she could afford it) and match attendance towards NCFC. The question concerns how far that generosity has extended to genuinely understanding the perspectives of fans?

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1 hour ago, essex canary said:

 argument that charity begins at home.

The problem is that Delia now prefers to want to help out American pension funds at a rate of 11% interest rather than provide a Block M OAP concession for a loyal supporter.

There are a few other options she could have had too. There is a rock star who gave away a £5 million house to the homeless. The EDP today once again contains an article from the King's Lynn Owner/Chairman who is always very transparent about his Football Club which is struggling.

In general Delia has been generous in terms of finance (as far as she could afford it) and match attendance towards NCFC. The question concerns how far that generosity has extended to genuinely understanding the perspectives of fans?

I'm not arguing with any of this. It's happening now, none of us know how it will end up. Anyone's theory can't be discounted.

This all comes from my factual observation that Delia and Michael put millions into our club whereas Vincey's Uncle Bob only took money out of our club. Now we can muddy the waters with deflections or remain focused on the original point that is truthful and factual.

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Just catching up in this. Thanks for that analysis Nutty. It shows that if Attanasio also pays Smith & Jones £25 per share and their recent new loan of £885k was written off, they would be break-even. I had wondered why the loan had even made, now I understand.

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3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Just catching up in this. Thanks for that analysis Nutty. It shows that if Attanasio also pays Smith & Jones £25 per share and their recent new loan of £885k was written off, they would be break-even. I had wondered why the loan had even made, now I understand.

£7.5m over 25 years is £300k per year (or £5,769.23 per week) to own a football club.

Parma 

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3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Just catching up in this. Thanks for that analysis Nutty. It shows that if Attanasio also pays Smith & Jones £25 per share and their recent new loan of £885k was written off, they would be break-even. I had wondered why the loan had even made, now I understand.

So...

It's not me that came up with those figures. I had saved them from when FPAs were trying to prove that Delia and Michael had paid around 3m for their shares. It's a true account of the shares they own. It was posted by @Buncey who is a well respected and honest poster. It's checkable. You FPAs can surely check out that information. I'm not an FPA. I'm thick as mince. My accounting is only up to bog cleaning and bingo calling standards. However I hope what I've posted will uncover that some of those shares came from converted loans. You guys know where to look now.

But that's not the end of it. This comes from Vincey's wrong assertion that Delia and MWJ have had all their money back and Uncle Bob only ever took what he earned. Let's leave Uncle Bob for another day.

Back in 2010 Delia told me, on record, that her and MWJ had then invested 12m. It came from a web chat when I asked her this question because her detractors on here were too shy...

Hello Delia,

 I'm sure most fans are as pleased as I am that we have won promotion back to the Championship at the first attempt but many fans are still unhappy about last seasons relegation and blame you for all the ills of the club. They write on message boards that the club is a shambles through successive poor managerial appointments and your prudence before ambition policy. They claim you refuse to price the club reasonably and won't let any investors in if it means losing your majority share. How do you feel when you read these things and what drives you on to carry on spending more and more of your own money knowing some fans feel this way?

Here's her reply...

Hi Eddie, thank you, I think this is a really good question and one I want to answer. Just for the record, prudence with ambition was never a policy of mine or Michael's otherwise we'd be about £12million better off! We have never priced the Club and prior to the Deloitte search we have only had one offer of cash which was for £1! Losing our majority shareholding is not, I repeat not, a problem, if it helps the Football Club. How do I feel and what drives me to carry on? What I assume we both share, and that is a deep love of our football club.

So, 12m! Now since then there's been a 2m loan repaid as Vincey rightly said. I don't know if there's been any further loans or gifts but if we now say 10m plus this latest loan would be a bare minimum. It's not much for a football club in this day and age but its a ducking great wedge of D&Ms personal wealth. Now @sheffcanary I'm wondering if you or any of the other FPAs can find the missing millions. I can give you a place to start...

Other malicious posts used to say the Bellamy transfer was used to pay for the catering improvements in the Barclay Stand. Thing is, the Bellamy transfer is in the accounts. As far as I can see catering improvements are not. Delia, when asked about it said...

So Delia, how much did the improvements to the Barclay Stand cost?

“A few pounds. But it is not all about prices, we don’t like everything to be public but like to keep it in the family.

“We don’t tell everything – it’s like you don’t tell everyone what you earn, what you do in your private life. Some things are public and some things are personal.

“We are never, ever going to give the details.” (Delia Smith, Eastern Daily Press, Friday, November 3, 2000).

There are of course other times. Cedric Anselin springs immediately to mind.

Come on you FPAs, let's show Neppers Vincey!

Edited by nutty nigel
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The point is not how much S&J have put in but what percentage of their wealth. Since the highest figure for their wealth I have ever seen is £24m then the likelihood is that they have put in a higher percentage than most if not all of other owners of English clubs. Certainly close to 50 per cent.

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

 @Buncey  

Come on you FPAs, let's show Neppers Vincey!

I think the difference here Nutty is in what Delia describes as cost of £12m and also a bit of rounding. I would assume interest not charged on the loans (both the one converted and the one redeemed) is included in this - they didn't charge interest, if they had kept the money in the bank rather than lending it they would have probably have made another million or two. Roundings would account for a million. All back of a fag packet stuff really, but the two sets of figures in this tale are basically the same.

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13 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I think the difference here Nutty is in what Delia describes as cost of £12m and also a bit of rounding. I would assume interest not charged on the loans (both the one converted and the one redeemed) is included in this - they didn't charge interest, if they had kept the money in the bank rather than lending it they would have probably have made another million or two. Roundings would account for a million. All back of a fag packet stuff really, but the two sets of figures in this tale are basically the same.

So it wasn't 12m then?

I'm beginning to think FPAs are about bluffing the way to reach a figure required.

I ain't having it buddy.

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7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So it wasn't 12m then?

I'm beginning to think FPAs are about bluffing the way to reach a figure required.

I ain't having it buddy.

But loans were repaid. That we do know.

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5 hours ago, Big Vince said:

But loans were repaid. That we do know.

No, we don't know that. The only bit of the equation we know is that your uncle Bob only took money out of our club.

But I'm more ineterested in @sheffcanary's post right now. It kept me awake for half an hour last night after my Horlicks. This jiggery pokery that FPAs use to make two or three million quid appear and disappear at will would be a handy tool to have. I've got a few hundred quid in the bank to see me through the month plus a bit of cash dotted about the flat. Twenty quid behind the picture of neppers Vin's uncle (that's stood on the mantlepiece to keep the kids away from the fire) and a tenner in 'Stoola's vase on the sideboard. (BTW, I think it will soon be a vayze). But I'm not a greedy man. Two or three million quid would scare the life out of me. But if this FPA jiggery pokery could suddenly add two or three hundred it would be handy just before Christmas. 

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

No, we don't know that. The only bit of the equation we know is that your uncle Bob only took money out of our club.

But I'm more ineterested in @sheffcanary's post right now. It kept me awake for half an hour last night after my Horlicks. This jiggery pokery that FPAs use to make two or three million quid appear and disappear at will would be a handy tool to have. I've got a few hundred quid in the bank to see me through the month plus a bit of cash dotted about the flat. Twenty quid behind the picture of neppers Vin's uncle (that's stood on the mantlepiece to keep the kids away from the fire) and a tenner in 'Stoola's vase on the sideboard. (BTW, I think it will soon be a vayze). But I'm not a greedy man. Two or three million quid would scare the life out of me. But if this FPA jiggery pokery could suddenly add two or three hundred it would be handy just before Christmas. 

Why are you so poor? Scrambling around for a few quid there and here?

PS.

Uncle Robert "earned" that money, not "took". We are teetering in libellous territory here.

Edited by Big Vince

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14 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So it wasn't 12m then?

I'm beginning to think FPAs are about bluffing the way to reach a figure required.

I ain't having it buddy.

That's what I said, she has rounded up and included lost interest in the "cost". Stop dissing the FPA's! 🤣

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3 hours ago, Big Vince said:

Why are you so poor? Scrambling around for a few quid there and here?

PS.

Uncle Robert "earned" that money, not "took". We are teetering in libellous territory here.

Oh I'd never say I was poor Vincey. I have an abundance of riches that you could only dream of. I was just wondering about this FPA jiggery pokery and if it would help with Christmas. 

I agree. Language is important and we wouldn't want to stray into libellous territory. So I'll just repeat what was said at the AGM...

Robert Chase received more than £7000 in holiday pay when he resigned as Norwich City chairman, the club's annual meeting was told at Carrow Road last night.
Company secretary Trevor Nicholls also told surprised shareholders that Mr Chase's salary had more than doubled from £50,000 a year to £120,000 with effect from January 1, 1996 -four months before his eventual departure.
The club's annual report for the six months up to June 30, 1996, showed that Mr Chase had been paid £137,040 for loss of office, plus further emoluments of £83,670 - of which £36,000 belonged to the previous accounting period.
Of the remaining £47,670, Mr Nicholls said £40,000 had constituted Mr Chase's salary from January-April, 1996, and £7670 had been due in holiday pay.
In total the club had agreed a total settlement of £184,710 with Mr Chase, who had eventually received £108,714 after the deduction of tax and National Insurance.
Asked whether Mr Chase had any moral obligation to return the money, club chairman Barry Lockwood said: 'I don't get involved in moral matters - I just keep us on a legal track.'

I'm sure you also wouldn't want to stray into libellous territory. Claiming that all loans have been repaid may not be the language to keep you on the right side of that boundary.

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3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

That's what I said, she has rounded up and included lost interest in the "cost". Stop dissing the FPA's! 🤣

I'm still intrigued by all this FPA jiggery pokery. If it was possible to play rounders and make £9m into £12m in 2010 how much more than £12m would that be over 13 years later?

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20 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So...

It's not me that came up with those figures. I had saved them from when FPAs were trying to prove that Delia and Michael had paid around 3m for their shares. It's a true account of the shares they own. It was posted by @Buncey who is a well respected and honest poster. It's checkable. You FPAs can surely check out that information. I'm not an FPA. I'm thick as mince. My accounting is only up to bog cleaning and bingo calling standards. However I hope what I've posted will uncover that some of those shares came from converted loans. You guys know where to look now.

But that's not the end of it. This comes from Vincey's wrong assertion that Delia and MWJ have had all their money back and Uncle Bob only ever took what he earned. Let's leave Uncle Bob for another day.

Back in 2010 Delia told me, on record, that her and MWJ had then invested 12m. It came from a web chat when I asked her this question because her detractors on here were too shy...

Hello Delia,

 I'm sure most fans are as pleased as I am that we have won promotion back to the Championship at the first attempt but many fans are still unhappy about last seasons relegation and blame you for all the ills of the club. They write on message boards that the club is a shambles through successive poor managerial appointments and your prudence before ambition policy. They claim you refuse to price the club reasonably and won't let any investors in if it means losing your majority share. How do you feel when you read these things and what drives you on to carry on spending more and more of your own money knowing some fans feel this way?

Here's her reply...

Hi Eddie, thank you, I think this is a really good question and one I want to answer. Just for the record, prudence with ambition was never a policy of mine or Michael's otherwise we'd be about £12million better off! We have never priced the Club and prior to the Deloitte search we have only had one offer of cash which was for £1! Losing our majority shareholding is not, I repeat not, a problem, if it helps the Football Club. How do I feel and what drives me to carry on? What I assume we both share, and that is a deep love of our football club.

So, 12m! Now since then there's been a 2m loan repaid as Vincey rightly said. I don't know if there's been any further loans or gifts but if we now say 10m plus this latest loan would be a bare minimum. It's not much for a football club in this day and age but its a ducking great wedge of D&Ms personal wealth. Now @sheffcanary I'm wondering if you or any of the other FPAs can find the missing millions. I can give you a place to start...

Other malicious posts used to say the Bellamy transfer was used to pay for the catering improvements in the Barclay Stand. Thing is, the Bellamy transfer is in the accounts. As far as I can see catering improvements are not. Delia, when asked about it said...

So Delia, how much did the improvements to the Barclay Stand cost?

“A few pounds. But it is not all about prices, we don’t like everything to be public but like to keep it in the family.

“We don’t tell everything – it’s like you don’t tell everyone what you earn, what you do in your private life. Some things are public and some things are personal.

“We are never, ever going to give the details.” (Delia Smith, Eastern Daily Press, Friday, November 3, 2000).

There are of course other times. Cedric Anselin springs immediately to mind.

Come on you FPAs, let's show Neppers Vincey!

That’s one weird admission of correspondence. 

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35 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

That’s one weird admission of correspondence. 

It's not an admission of correspondence. It's the record from a public web chat where I asked the question on behalf of a shy poster on here who was spreading nonsense from behind a username.

Somethings never change.

If you find truth uncomfortable don't shoot the messenger.

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2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Oh I'd never say I was poor Vincey. I have an abundance of riches that you could only dream of. I was just wondering about this FPA jiggery pokery and if it would help with Christmas. 

I agree. Language is important and we wouldn't want to stray into libellous territory. So I'll just repeat what was said at the AGM...

Robert Chase received more than £7000 in holiday pay when he resigned as Norwich City chairman, the club's annual meeting was told at Carrow Road last night.
Company secretary Trevor Nicholls also told surprised shareholders that Mr Chase's salary had more than doubled from £50,000 a year to £120,000 with effect from January 1, 1996 -four months before his eventual departure.
The club's annual report for the six months up to June 30, 1996, showed that Mr Chase had been paid £137,040 for loss of office, plus further emoluments of £83,670 - of which £36,000 belonged to the previous accounting period.
Of the remaining £47,670, Mr Nicholls said £40,000 had constituted Mr Chase's salary from January-April, 1996, and £7670 had been due in holiday pay.
In total the club had agreed a total settlement of £184,710 with Mr Chase, who had eventually received £108,714 after the deduction of tax and National Insurance.
Asked whether Mr Chase had any moral obligation to return the money, club chairman Barry Lockwood said: 'I don't get involved in moral matters - I just keep us on a legal track.'

I'm sure you also wouldn't want to stray into libellous territory. Claiming that all loans have been repaid may not be the language to keep you on the right side of that boundary.

If we were two crusty old barristers discussing the merits of libel over a pint of ale down at the Adam and Eve, your contention that no loans have been repaid would be much closer to the threshold than my contention that all loans have been repaid. 

Edited by Big Vince

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2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Oh I'd never say I was poor Vincey. I have an abundance of riches that you could only dream of. I was just wondering about this FPA jiggery pokery and if it would help with Christmas. 

I agree. Language is important and we wouldn't want to stray into libellous territory. So I'll just repeat what was said at the AGM...

Robert Chase received more than £7000 in holiday pay when he resigned as Norwich City chairman, the club's annual meeting was told at Carrow Road last night.
Company secretary Trevor Nicholls also told surprised shareholders that Mr Chase's salary had more than doubled from £50,000 a year to £120,000 with effect from January 1, 1996 -four months before his eventual departure.
The club's annual report for the six months up to June 30, 1996, showed that Mr Chase had been paid £137,040 for loss of office, plus further emoluments of £83,670 - of which £36,000 belonged to the previous accounting period.
Of the remaining £47,670, Mr Nicholls said £40,000 had constituted Mr Chase's salary from January-April, 1996, and £7670 had been due in holiday pay.
In total the club had agreed a total settlement of £184,710 with Mr Chase, who had eventually received £108,714 after the deduction of tax and National Insurance.
Asked whether Mr Chase had any moral obligation to return the money, club chairman Barry Lockwood said: 'I don't get involved in moral matters - I just keep us on a legal track.'

I'm sure you also wouldn't want to stray into libellous territory. Claiming that all loans have been repaid may not be the language to keep you on the right side of that boundary.

Chase was a really cheap executive chairman then? Only £184,710 before tax and considering he did the jobs of all the people on the current executive board who are getting £3 million per annum to put the club £94 million in debt. I know which executive I would rather have.

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28 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

If we were two crusty old barristers discussing the merits of libel over a pint of ale down at the Adam and Eve, your contention that no loans have been repaid would be much closer to the threshold than my contention that all loans have been repaid. 

I've watched Rumpole...

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11 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Chase was a really cheap executive chairman then? Only £184,710 before tax and considering he did the jobs of all the people on the current executive board who are getting £3 million per annum to put the club £94 million in debt. I know which executive I would rather have.

I don't know. I guess it depends on the rounders and jiggery pokery. We should wait for the FPAs...

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I occasionally hijack this thread to let my own thoughts out, forgive me Parma and other more esteemed posters.

The infamous guard of honour.

Nothing encapsulates what we are more than this pathetic sight. A club who rewards failure, a club whose owners have probably arranged this, despite the often vociferous, definitely consistent, public outpouring of discontent toward the man who is receiving the applause. To do it in front of the fans who have travelled 500 miles, probably for the 7th or 8th time this season, is a massive, massive PR failure. Bucketfuls of arrogance. Shameful, pathetic and tin pot - which is exactly what we will be forever until ALL of the root causes are no longer in positions of power.

‘Stuart is one of the nicest men we’ve ever met’ 

 

 

Edited by Captain Holt

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On 11/11/2023 at 22:24, nutty nigel said:

 @Buncey

Back in 2010 Delia told me, on record, that her and MWJ had then invested 12m. It came from a web chat when I asked her this question because her detractors on here were too shy...

Hello Delia,

 I'm sure most fans are as pleased as I am that we have won promotion back to the Championship at the first attempt but many fans are still unhappy about last seasons relegation and blame you for all the ills of the club. They write on message boards that the club is a shambles through successive poor managerial appointments and your prudence before ambition policy. They claim you refuse to price the club reasonably and won't let any investors in if it means losing your majority share. How do you feel when you read these things and what drives you on to carry on spending more and more of your own money knowing some fans feel this way?

Here's her reply...

Hi Eddie, thank you, I think this is a really good question and one I want to answer. Just for the record, prudence with ambition was never a policy of mine or Michael's otherwise we'd be about £12million better off! We have never priced the Club and prior to the Deloitte search we have only had one offer of cash which was for £1! Losing our majority shareholding is not, I repeat not, a problem, if it helps the Football Club. How do I feel and what drives me to carry on? What I assume we both share, and that is a deep love of our football club.

So, 12m! Now since then there's been a 2m loan repaid as Vincey rightly said. I don't know if there's been any further loans or gifts but if we now say 10m plus this latest loan would be a bare minimum. It's not much for a football club in this day and age but its a ducking great wedge of D&Ms personal wealth. Now @sheffcanary I'm wondering if you or any of the other FPAs can find the missing millions. 

So Delia, how much did the improvements to the Barclay Stand cost?

“A few pounds. But it is not all about prices, we don’t like everything to be public but like to keep it in the family.

“We don’t tell everything – it’s like you don’t tell everyone what you earn, what you do in your private life. Some things are public and some things are personal.

“We are never, ever going to give the details.” (Delia Smith, Eastern Daily Press, Friday, November 3, 2000).

There are of course other times. Cedric Anselin springs immediately to mind.

Come on you FPAs, let's show Neppers Vincey!

Shouldn't you blame Delia rather than the FPA's?

We have said we can account for £8 million or so though interest considerations could account for more.

Delia told you in 2000 that 'we don't like to be public but to keep it in the family'. That"s why less than 2 years later she turned it into a Public Limited Company. Therein lies the problem, an inability to coordinate actions and words.

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13 hours ago, Big Vince said:

Chase was a really cheap executive chairman then? Only £184,710 before tax and considering he did the jobs of all the people on the current executive board who are getting £3 million per annum to put the club £94 million in debt. I know which executive I would rather have.

Here, here. The whole wage bill at Plymouth last year was only around £6 million.

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12 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Shouldn't you blame Delia rather than the FPA's?

We have said we can account for £8 million or so though interest considerations could account for more.

Delia told you in 2000 that 'we don't like to be public but to keep it in the family'. That"s why less than 2 years later she turned it into a Public Limited Company. Therein lies the problem, an inability to coordinate actions and words.

That had to be done for the post-ITV  Digital share issue. And because we are still a PLC shareholders such as yourself have had much more information about and to a limited extent a say in this takeover process. If we had not become a PLC it all would have happened privately, with no info and no say.

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