Unofficial Reading v Norwich match thread with all the news

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The gap btween the top half of the table and the bottom half of the table is a pretty small number of points; losing to us is a part of the reason those teams are in the bottom half of the table... and why we're at the top. 

Seriously, we're in the automatic promotion slots on a 9 game unbeaten run. Do you think you might possibly be nitpicking a bit?

Yes - we should have complained about our fixture list - after 12 games we’ve apparently only played ‘easy’ matches…

[chicken 2,644]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

We got "continually dicked in the Premier League" under Smith, Ian.

What have you seen from us this season to suggest that'd change if we were to get promoted?

Nope, when he took over we improved. We got defensively tighter and started to become a bit more physical. Idah started looking good too. Then covid and injuries took hold... the club tried to push through fixtures when we struggled to name a fully senior bench, whilst other teams proactively postponed games to buy themselves more time.

Nottingham Forrest have spent more than Aston Villa to stay up and everyone has been banging on about what a good manager they have. Where are they? If only the premier league was so easy huh... 

[kirku 1,339]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The gap btween the top half of the table and the bottom half of the table is a pretty small number of points; losing to us is a part of the reason those teams are in the bottom half of the table... and why we're at the top. 

Seriously, we're in the automatic promotion slots on a 9 game unbeaten run. Do you think you might possibly be nitpicking a bit?

There are 9 points between us and 12th. That's a pretty big gap after 12 games.

Not really, no. I'm not berating the results, I don't like the style of play (because we don't have one) and I'm struggling to see the point in it all.

If we were to go up, I can't see which kind of foundation we're trying to lay for next season. 

As you said, we've only got 7 more months left of Pukki. Might it be the same for Smith? I hope so.

[KeiranShikari 1,441]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The gap btween the top half of the table and the bottom half of the table is a pretty small number of points; losing to us is a part of the reason those teams are in the bottom half of the table... and why we're at the top. 

Seriously, we're in the automatic promotion slots on a 9 game unbeaten run. Do you think you might possibly be nitpicking a bit?

A lot of sides in the top half are sides that play with obvious structure and organisation, something that I'm worried we won't be able to overcome regularly with our 'win with individual talent' style. We've got a lot of these teams coming up soon so I'll have my answer soon enough. 

I just hope Webber and the board are proactive if the next month doesn't go well.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,595]

6 minutes ago, kirku said:

There are 9 points between us and 12th. That's a pretty big gap after 12 games.

Not really, no. I'm not berating the results, I don't like the style of play (because we don't have one) and I'm struggling to see the point in it all.

If we were to go up, I can't see which kind of foundation we're trying to lay for next season. 

As you said, we've only got 7 more months left of Pukki. Might it be the same for Smith? I hope so.

There's definitely a cohesive style and approach, just not necessarily the same from game to game, or necessarily even remaining fixed throughout a game. 12th place (lowest of the top half of the table) is 15 points. 13 points, gets you down to 17th place. Two of those teams in 13th to 17th would be in the top half of the table if they hadn't have lost to us. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kirku 1,339]

5 minutes ago, chicken said:

Nope, when he took over we improved. We got defensively tighter and started to become a bit more physical. Idah started looking good too. Then covid and injuries took hold... the club tried to push through fixtures when we struggled to name a fully senior bench, whilst other teams proactively postponed games to buy themselves more time.

Nottingham Forrest have spent more than Aston Villa to stay up and everyone has been banging on about what a good manager they have. Where are they? If only the premier league was so easy huh... 

Forest have spent almost exactly the same figure as Villa the year they went up, apparently. Villa survived because VAR failed. Who knows how well, or not, Forest will do come the end of the season?

Spending money doesn't guarantee anything, as Fulham demonstrated, but spent well, it certainly does help. 

As for us improving under Smith last year, I disagree. It was dire.

 

[chicken 2,644]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

How long do you think this should take? Smith's been in charge for about a year now.

There are many posters on here, myself very much included, who are asking people what Smith's plan is. Perhaps you've identified something we've missed.

If fluency takes time, it should be a broadly linear progression, so what is that?

Farke took a season, and that started from the summer.

I always look to some of the level headed folk on here for reason, even if I don't always like the sound of it. Ricardo said we looked gone by the end of October last season. If you look back, that's a fair reflection really. It was a pretty big mountain to climb, even if I refused to submit to believing it wasn't possible - the curse of being an optimist.

If you agree with that, then the reality is Smith was unlikely to keep us up. He certainly improved performances and results when he had a fully fit squad to choose from. The difficulty in the premier league is that this squad isn't deep for that level, it's deep for this level.

As for progression, I believe we're seeing it. I also think we are seeing teams focusing on disrupting us rather than trying to outplay us. That's to be expected. We're no longer a maybe team. Other teams know we punch very hard at this level and so they have to be on form and incredibly determined to get one over on us.

We are also playing without natural balance. I think the return of the likes of Giannoulis will help us. Gibbs getting back up to speed too as his range of passing from a deep position is fantastic, it really is. Obviously Hayden could potentially be a big impact too.

However, I'm not sure what you really want here? Playing the team in third place, away from home, you'd take a draw before kick off.

As for this "it's an entertainment" argument again... go watch WWE. Sport is sport. You might have a favourite and you sure as hell want them to win, but it isn't always going to be pretty, sometimes there will bottom of the barrel scraping wins, barrel-less losses, ridiculously entertaining draws. That 'is' what is entertaining about sport. Not just the winning, the journey, the unpredictable twists and turns, the opposition who want to leave their name imprinted on part of that journey. If you are turning up to Carrow Road or any other footballing stadium expecting for non-stop, endless 100% entertainment, may I suggest the Theatre Royal instead?

[kirku 1,339]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's definitely a cohesive style and approach, just not necessarily the same from game to game, or necessarily even remaining fixed throughout a game. 13 points, gets you down to 17th place. Two of those teams would be in the top half of the table if they hadn't have lost to us. 

You mean, if they'd beaten us?

Quite a difference, and we certainly wouldn't be discussing whether the performances merited the results if we'd lost two more games..

[littleyellowbirdie 2,595]

2 minutes ago, kirku said:

Forest have spent almost exactly the same figure as Villa the year they went up, apparently. Villa survived because VAR failed. Who knows how well, or not, Forest will do come the end of the season?

Spending money doesn't guarantee anything, as Fulham demonstrated, but spent well, it certainly does help. 

As for us improving under Smith last year, I disagree. It was dire.

 

Actually, it's a fact that we were better under Smith on all metrics compared to Farke last Premier League season. We didn't survive; but we did improve. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,595]

2 minutes ago, kirku said:

You mean, if they'd beaten us?

Quite a difference, and we certainly wouldn't be discussing whether the performances merited the results if we'd lost two more games..

That's right, if they'd beaten us, in other words, we're the only reason they're not top half of the table. 

Anyway, this seems ridiculous trying to excuse a manager who has us in an automatic promotion slot. I'm getting some shuteye. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[chicken 2,644]

1 minute ago, kirku said:

Forest have spent almost exactly the same figure as Villa the year they went up, apparently. Villa survived because VAR failed. Who knows how well, or not, Forest will do come the end of the season?

Spending money doesn't guarantee anything, as Fulham demonstrated, but spent well, it certainly does help. 

As for us improving under Smith last year, I disagree. It was dire.

My point was more that plenty of people have praised Steve Cooper for being a terrific young manager. He's had loads of cash and yet, they are at the bottom of the table on 4pts. It's entirely relevant because Smith had no money and yet was expected to do better than Cooper is currently managing, with essentially someone else's side.

Nunez and Ramsey are his two players on the pitch right now. They both had to be signed due to the exodus of midfield players. The midfield is very much still a work in progress.

And as for improving us - again, the results and performances say otherwise. Disagree as much as you like. You can't disagree that initially, with a fit squad, he was getting results and improved performances. 

[TESCO 70]

5 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I think we’ve only ever fielded two up top under Smith with 3 at the back in the PL, if at all, be very surprised if both JS and Pukki are up front 

Everton, Watford, Palace were all played in a 4-4-2 with Pukki/Idah until Idah got injured.

We then played with a two of Pukki and Rashica against Brighton away

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

7 hours ago, TESCO said:

Everton, Watford, Palace were all played in a 4-4-2 with Pukki/Idah until Idah got injured.

We then played with a two of Pukki and Rashica against Brighton away

Yep got pulled on that yesterday, totally forgot, actually our best spell of last season. But probably not something we will see in the champs as it was a direct style and basically an acceptance that we couldn’t keep or progress the ball against PL sides…

[jaberry2 556]

Its still pretty much safe to say we are work in process. Pukki was starved of supply yesterday, which isnt for the first time this season. Its getting a better gel and fit in Midfield for me which is missing. Kenny tries hard and was everywhere, however it was his usual mixed performance in terms of passing, but was probably one of his better games. Nunez if playing central midfield can do better and still needs time to adjust. Im still hoping Hayden recovers soon and we can play a DM breaking play / distributes short passing to other midfielders who can then work there way up the pitch. We do miss the likes of a Cantwell type of character who can link play effectively, which could be Dowell if he offered more, but he also needs to become more match sharp and offer more. You could pretty much say the same for our whole midfield.

[hogesar 9,746]

Smith's job couldn't be safer, and those who went early on making out he'd have us midtable are doubling-down on their stupidity at the moment, and bemoaning 'style of play'.

Our style of play yesterday was incredibly similar to our style of play during Farkes last title win. 

03/11/20 - Norwich 0 - 0 Millwall (62% posession, 85% pass accuracy, almost identical to yesterday)

28/11/20 - Norwich 1 - 1 Coventry (Norwich penalty) (64% possession, 9 shots in total, Coventry had 13)

02/12/20 - Luton 3 - 1 Norwich (68% posession, 85% pass accuracy)

The only people who are making out like there's literally zero style of play etc are the one's who went in early on Smith, because he wasn't Farke.

[Ian 1,136]

10 hours ago, CDMullins said:

Considering this industry it's bizzare that you think otherwise.

Smith as been lucky that he has been on the right side of the odd few goals here and there.

Had that start have extended to 5/8/10 games, he'd have been gone for sure.

Luckily, I'm not part of the "industry" so able to formulate my own opinions on what's a realistic way to judge a manager.

[Ian 1,136]

11 hours ago, kirku said:

If fluency takes time, it should be a broadly linear progression, so what is that?

Why do you think establishing fluency would be a broadly linear progression in football? It's not unusual for a team to suddenly "click", when either a key player is added or returns from injury, or simply with further coaching.

In terms of time - if we don't see an improvement in style of play after the next transfer window and/or when we have a stable squad in terms of injuries, I think it's fair to consider whether Smith is the coach, and Webber the DoF, to keep that progression going.

But, let's not pretend there isn't a huge level of risk in terms of changing key personnel, particularly when things are going well in terms of results.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Ian
Last sentence

[Ian 1,136]

9 hours ago, chicken said:

My point was more that plenty of people have praised Steve Cooper for being a terrific young manager. He's had loads of cash and yet, they are at the bottom of the table on 4pts. It's entirely relevant because Smith had no money and yet was expected to do better than Cooper is currently managing, with essentially someone else's side.

Nunez and Ramsey are his two players on the pitch right now. They both had to be signed due to the exodus of midfield players. The midfield is very much still a work in progress.

And as for improving us - again, the results and performances say otherwise. Disagree as much as you like. You can't disagree that initially, with a fit squad, he was getting results and improved performances. 

Very good post.

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact some people can't take to Smith; whether it's his personality, perceived pragmatism, lack of parka or whatever it may be. He obviously doesn't seem to be the next big thing, or play desirable football in their eyes.

That's absolutely fine, everyone in entitled to their own opinions. It is, however, pretty exasperating to see people disregard our league position as luck or an aberration, whilst simultaneously pretending we only ever played incredible football under our previous manager and did not have periods where we had to grind out results in the Championship.

I would back, and understand, the huge levels of negativity if we were sitting mid-table (or worse), but given everybody must be aware we are a work-in-progress, surely the fact we are still practically top of the table has to be a good thing?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

For me the salient point was Gabbidon saying he doesn't think we have clicked yet and that there is more to come. I think that is true. We dominated the game with the ball but were troubled at times by Reading's route one approach and everyone behind the ball. But we never really put Teemu in with chances and were always looking to play that killer pass into a packed area and it didn't work.

But the passing, albeit in front of their defence, was better and more accurate  and I think that was down to a better shape with Gibbs, who was my MOTM, controlling the defensive areas.

I just don't think the shape is right yet. Sarge out wide doesn't really provide anything. And Ramsey isn't likely to take on a back and get to the line. So we aren't really pulling defences wide apart and leaving gaps for Teemu. If the build up is slow, it allows midfield players to get back and defend and close the gaps even more.

To be fair, Onel hasn't looked great starting but better attacking tired players. Personally I would like to see him trying up the middle for 10 minutes just to panic central defenders. Doing something the opposition wouldn't want. It did seem neat but predictable last night.

[kirku 1,339]

5 hours ago, Ian said:

Why do you think establishing fluency would be a broadly linear progression in football? It's not unusual for a team to suddenly "click", when either a key player is added or returns from injury, or simply with further coaching.

In terms of time - if we don't see an improvement in style of play after the next transfer window and/or when we have a stable squad in terms of injuries, I think it's fair to consider whether Smith is the coach, and Webber the DoF, to keep that progression going.

But, let's not pretend there isn't a huge level of risk in terms of changing key personnel, particularly when things are going well in terms of results.

I don't think he should be sacked, I just don't think he's right for the club and I don't enjoy watching the football he's produced in his time here

[chicken 2,644]

16 hours ago, CDMullins said:

Considering this industry it's bizzare that you think otherwise.

Smith as been lucky that he has been on the right side of the odd few goals here and there.

Had that start have extended to 5/8/10 games, he'd have been gone for sure.

Good god... Lucky? Again? Such a truly nothing view.

[hogesar 9,746]

4 minutes ago, chicken said:

Good god... Lucky? Again? Such a truly nothing view.

By 'right side of the odd few goals', CD actually means, winning games. 99% of games in the championship and every other professional league in the world are decided by being on 'the right side of the odd few goals'

[chicken 2,644]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

By 'right side of the odd few goals', CD actually means, winning games. 99% of games in the championship and every other professional league in the world are decided by being on 'the right side of the odd few goals'

Exactly... "if we'd lost more games" we haven't though. And we've largely deserved the results too. Few teams have genuinely outplayed us!

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

By 'right side of the odd few goals', CD actually means, winning games. 99% of games in the championship and every other professional league in the world are decided by being on 'the right side of the odd few goals'

And that includes under Farke, Lambert et al….exciting they may be but there’s absolutely no need for 90th minute winners if you’re already ahead.

Just on a different tack - Ince is bemoaning not getting a clear pen in the second half…I certainly can’t recall any such incident (I do recall Josh being dragged into the back of their net though!) and I’m sure a group of our ‘supporters’ would have gleefully picked at it had they seen it.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,450]

15 hours ago, chicken said:

My point was more that plenty of people have praised Steve Cooper for being a terrific young manager. 

People praised Cooper (not sure about the Young bit) for taking Forest from bottom to promotion in the Championship.

I haven’t seen anyone praise Cooper in the Prem . There is nothing to praise . They have been a basket case and he is likely to be sacked . 
 

 

[chicken 2,644]

3 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

People praised Cooper (not sure about the Young bit) for taking Forest from bottom to promotion in the Championship.

I haven’t seen anyone praise Cooper in the Prem . There is nothing to praise . They have been a basket case and he is likely to be sacked . 
 

 

Look back a couple of weeks on here, 42 is also "young" as far as managers go, even if there are some that are younger.

[CDMullins 446]

4 hours ago, chicken said:

Exactly... "if we'd lost more games" we haven't though. And we've largely deserved the results too. Few teams have genuinely outplayed us!

And we've outplayed few,

Hence being on the lucky side of the odd goal here and there.

[chicken 2,644]

30 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

And we've outplayed few,

Hence being on the lucky side of the odd goal here and there.

Nah sorry. Though it may be a low bar, we have outplayed more sides than not this season. None have really outplayed us.

We've not been any luckier than for or against. There have been games we have been unlucky not to score more, most games in fact.

It's not really luck though is it? You have to create chances. We've not scored any goals you could consider lucky, at which point, it's down to the opposition to score more. 

Lets have a look at league fixtures shall we? (Norwich stat first unless otherwise stated).

Cardiff Away 1-0(L): 6 shots Vs 3, 1 on target Vs 2, 55% possession, 77% pass accuracy Vs 74%, 432 passes Vs 360, 7 corners Vs 1, 9 fouls Vs 16. Stats suggest that Cardiff were lucky to get a point let alone a win.
Wigan Home 1-1(D): 22 shots Vs 6, 4 on target Vs 3, 71% possession, 585 passes Vs 254, 84% pass accuracy Vs 61%, 6 fouls Vs 13, 9 corners Vs 0.
Hull Away 2-1(L): 18 shots Vs 13, 12 on target Vs 4, 70% posession, 581 passes Vs 249, 86% pass accuracy Vs 67%, 6 fouls Vs 15, 11 corners Vs 2. 

Firs three games of the season where we got a single point. Evidence suggests that with the lions share of possession and by far the most chances, we should have scored more goals. Certainly NOT lucky in those fixtures, more unlucky.

Huddersfield Home 2-1(w): 22 shots, 9 on target Vs 11 shots, 5 on target. 68% possession, 88% pass accuracy Vs 78% pass accuracy, 719 passes Vs 352, 13 fouls to 5, 8 corners to 1.
Millwall Home 2-0(w): 18shots, 3 on target Vs 10shots, 2 on target. 63% possession, 503 passes Vs 299, 81% pass accuracy Vs 65%, 4 fouls Vs 16, 5 corners to 4.
Sunderland Away 0-1(w): 12 shots, 3 on target Vs 20 shots, 6 on target (first time in 6 games we were beaten in this stat), 55% possession, 391 passes Vs 312, 74% pass accuracy Vs 67%, 9 fouls to 11, 7 corners to 8.
Birmingham Away 1-2(w): 14 shots, 5 on target Vs 9 shots, 2 on target. 66% possession, 543 passes Vs 276, 85% pass accuracy Vs 70%, 5 fouls Vs 15, 8 corners to 6. 
Coventry Home 3-0(w): 14shots, 7 on target Vs 6 shots 1 on target. 61% possession, 645 passes Vs 406, 88% pass accuracy Vs 79%, 8 fouls Vs 4, 4 corners Vs 1.
Bristol City Home 3-2(w): 11shots, 6 on target Vs 11shots, 4 on target. 46% possession, 425 passes Vs 470, 71% pass accuracy Vs 74%, 2 corners Vs 8. 
West Brom Home 1-1(d): 11 shots, 3 on target Vs 11 shots, 2 on target. 66% possession, 562 passess Vs 295, 83% pass accuracy Vs 69%, 10 fouls Vs 13, 7 corners Vs 4.
Blackpool Away 0-1(w): 22 shots, 8 on target Vs 17 shots, 6 on target. 52% possession, 75% pass accuracy Vs 73%, 437 passes Vs 397, 4 fouls Vs 13, 6 corners Vs 9.
Reading Away 1-1(d): 7 shots, 1 on target Vs 10 shots, 3 on target. 66% possession, 605 passes Vs 316, 85% pass accuracy Vs 77%, 4 fouls Vs 10, 7 corners Vs 3. 

Quick take aways from that:
- Only once have we had less of the ball than the opposition (Bristol City).
- Only twice out of 12 games have the opposition had more shots than us, Reading and Sunderland away.
- Not been beaten on pass accuracy.
- Only once have the opposition passed the ball more times than us (Bristol City).

Now please point out to me where we have been "lucky"? We have essentially dominated all games in terms of the stats bar Bristol City and Sunderland, and in those, we only won against Sunderland with fewer shots in total and on target.

So I actually think that we are exactly where we deserve to be. 
 

[Herman 9,825]

This man talks sense, I think.😀

 

[percy varco 200]

23 hours ago, kirku said:

There are 9 points between us and 12th. That's a pretty big gap after 12 games.

Not really, no. I'm not berating the results, I don't like the style of play (because we don't have one) and I'm struggling to see the point in it all.

If we were to go up, I can't see which kind of foundation we're trying to lay for next season. 

As you said, we've only got 7 more months left of Pukki. Might it be the same for Smith? I hope so.

This👍