Is the Championship our natural home?

[Bradwell canary 109]

It seems that after so many attempts to survive in the PL, as a self funding club, we simply stand no chance at all of achieving it.

Simply it can’t be done……ever.

we must be the only team this season in the PL with no debt. Some clubs have massive debt, often to their owners. Our owners simply do not have the funds to underwrite that type of ownership.

So next season we will be back to perhaps our rightful place. However that in turn will be a far more enjoyable experience for the fans.

 

[Capt. Pants 4,300]

No. You take a larger mortgage and buy a bigger house.

[Branston Pickle 3,709]

Tbh we naturally fall somewhere between lower PL and upper Championship - but that’s not to say we couldn’t do better (or worse) under the right stewardship.  The problem is that there’s any number of clubs who might consider themselves the same, and that goes from Binners and Sheff Wed in L1 to Forest, WBA et al in the Champs.  Some supporters think it’s oh so easy but it obviously isn’t.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

In this dystopian sporting arena that has more to do with the financial muscle of owners instead of genuine sporting achievement, then we're actually doing very well if we're at the top end of the Championship (our owners are amongst the poorest in that league too).

But the best thing we can do is remain as debt-free as possible. That will always cushion landings. 

[BigFish 1,988]

21 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

No. You take a larger mortgage and buy a bigger house.

Wrong analogy, what this really means is you take out a mortgage to pay decorators and gardeners to tart up the house you have. Ten years time you still have the mortgage, the house is worth what it was (relatively) but the work needs doing again.

[hogesar 9,776]

17 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

In this dystopian sporting arena that has more to do with the financial muscle of owners instead of genuine sporting achievement, then we're actually doing very well if we're at the top end of the Championship (our owners are amongst the poorest in that league too).

But the best thing we can do is remain as debt-free as possible. That will always cushion landings. 

Our owners are only mid-table league one in terms of financial power. Of course there's as bit more to football than that but you are correct that financial muscle is in reality the biggest one.

A club our size will naturally sit 'between' the Championship and Premier League. There's probably 12 or so other similar clubs who would argue the same but haven't had the Premier League seasons we have in recent years.

[Jim Smith 2,349]

Has we grown as others have done during our periods of opportunity we would have moved beyond it. But as we haven’t then yes our owners have probably ensured that championship is our natural level. 

[Mello Yello 2,306]

Home is where the Heart is....

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

The fact that our overall league position in the last 4 seasons has been 21st > 20th > 21st > 20th (probably) gives a pretty precise indication of our level.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Has we grown as others have done during our periods of opportunity we would have moved beyond it. But as we haven’t then yes our owners have probably ensured that championship is our natural level. 

Like who... Stoke, Burnley, Bournemouth?.... how many teams can confidently say their first aim is anything other than to make sure they simply stay up? So whilst there have been massive mistakes, I don't believe we will ever move 'beyond it', not without selling our soul to some billionaire... oh yeh that's what we all want now isn't it.

[BigFish 1,988]

23 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Has we grown as others have done during our periods of opportunity we would have moved beyond it. But as we haven’t then yes our owners have probably ensured that championship is our natural level. 

Complete **** Jim. The city would be no bigger, the fans no richer, the clubs history no more prestigious and the plastic/armchair fans would still prefer Liverpool/City/United/Chelsea etc.

It would be great to have more seasons in the sun, but we would remain one bas season from relegation and no bigger than we are today.

[komakino 275]

The majority shareholders are so far out of their depth for football in the modern day - and not just the top tier. 

I think the Championship is their home. The EPL exposes the clubs severe financial constraints, how the 'self funding' model doesn't work and their complete ignorance to investing or outside investment to move the club forward. 

Whatever you think of the system, our owners do not want to play - with the inevitable consequences. 

If we had owners that would put the club first and allow some outside investment, with some better and more consistent recruitment - goodbye Stuart Webber - then their perverse and arguably contemptuous way of treating football - and its fans - might have some mileage. 

However there is no way that Delia would want to give up control and the handover to Tom is a done deal, so us fans who want to see the club progress continue to be frustrated. 

I know there are some fans that think by getting relegated, everything will be rosy in the Championship. That is far from certain and even in the second tier, we will see that Norwich City slipping further from reality. 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,092]

The EPL is a playground for billionaires. Unless you're one of them, you're unlikely to have fun playing there

[For the future 70]

YES 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

6 hours ago, BigFish said:

Complete **** Jim. The city would be no bigger, the fans no richer, the clubs history no more prestigious and the plastic/armchair fans would still prefer Liverpool/City/United/Chelsea etc.

It would be great to have more seasons in the sun, but we would remain one bas season from relegation and no bigger than we are today.

Had we maintained PL standing (ie made more of our opportunities) there is a very distinct possibility that our stadium would be bigger, our gates increased, our players of higher standard as we would be a more attractive proposition than one season wonders and numerous other positive differences. Not quite sure how anyone could argue that staying up for a few seasons wouldn’t move the club up a few rungs of the pecking order.

[Making Plans 942]

Third Division South back in the day.

Promotion didn't really seem as important then as it does now.

We played good football, we had more than a fair share of good players and we had bigger than average crowds.

Throw in the occasional FA Cup or League Cup run, beating many of the bigger Div 1 Clubs along the way, and most fans were happy enough.

 

[Nora's Ghost 157]

1972 is where it all began to go wrong when the fanbase suddenly decided that the top tier was 'where we belonged'.

 

 

 

 

[kdncfc 27]

7 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

Like who... Stoke, Burnley, Bournemouth?.... how many teams can confidently say their first aim is anything other than to make sure they simply stay up? So whilst there have been massive mistakes, I don't believe we will ever move 'beyond it', not without selling our soul to some billionaire... oh yeh that's what we all want now isn't it.

The 3 clubs you mention have all spent more seasons in the prem than we have in the last 10 years. We don't have to sell our soul to the devil, there is middle ground to at least give us a better chance of staying in the prem with maybe a greater possibility of reaching the odd cup final along the way. Maybe we could even afford to replace the cowshed (city stand) which is long overdue.

Personally I think we just need some new faces in charge of the club with fresh ideas.

[nutty nigel 7,653]

18 minutes ago, kdncfc said:

The 3 clubs you mention have all spent more seasons in the prem than we have in the last 10 years. We don't have to sell our soul to the devil, there is middle ground to at least give us a better chance of staying in the prem with maybe a greater possibility of reaching the odd cup final along the way. Maybe we could even afford to replace the cowshed (city stand) which is long overdue.

Personally I think we just need some new faces in charge of the club with fresh ideas.

Yes but you wanted this 13 years ago. Now if we'd have got the change then do you think the last 13 years would have been better or worse. Would we now be established in the PL or stuck in the champs or worse? 

[kdncfc 27]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Yes but you wanted this 13 years ago. Now if we'd have got the change then do you think the last 13 years would have been better or worse. Would we now be established in the PL or stuck in the champs or worse? 

Impossible question to answer, could have gone either way.

[nutty nigel 7,653]

3 minutes ago, kdncfc said:

Impossible question to answer, could have gone either way.

Of course. So I'll rephrase it. If you'd have got that change 13 years ago, and the subsequent years had been what we have had with these owners, would you have felt the change you called for had been a success?

[kdncfc 27]

Yes to a degree but it feels as though we've stagnated in the last couple of years in that we are no closer to being competetive in the prem than we were 5 years ago.

They're in their 80's now and surely even you must see that it's time for a change.

[nutty nigel 7,653]

Just now, kdncfc said:

Yes to a degree but it feels as though we've stagnated in the last couple of years in that we are no closer to being competetive in the prem than we were 5 years ago.

They're in their 80's now and surely even you must see that it's time for a change.

What's this 'even I must see'?🙃 

I don't think age matters for the custodians of our football club. Unless you want to go back to the old Robert Chase all singing all dancing model. I much prefer putting people in charge like Mumby/Doncaster, Bowkett/McNally, Balls/Webber. Looking at that the problem looks obvious...

 

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Not quite sure how anyone could argue that staying up for a few seasons wouldn’t move the club up a few rungs of the pecking order.

Perhaps it is because you don't understand modern football economics. Clubs that cannot generate much more cash than the TV money gives them spend all their cash on wages/transfer fees/amortisation. The basic economic fundamentals of a club do not change. By luck or good judgement the club may achieve some sporting success but this wouldn't move the club up any rungs, we would remain what we are and remain vulnerable to bad luck and bad judgement.

I largely disagree with the Delia outers but their analysis is correct, even if this leads to incorrect strategies, that a lack rich owners inhibits the club's ambitions. Also, agree with those who argue that increasing CR's capacity and amenities would grow income. Again the critique is accurate, but many of solutions proposed are unfeasible.

It is perfectly possible for a club our size to have a run of seasons in the EPL. But it is statistically unlikely, and over any given period clubs tend to trend to the mean.

[kdncfc 27]

18 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

What's this 'even I must see'?🙃 

I don't think age matters for the custodians of our football club. Unless you want to go back to the old Robert Chase all singing all dancing model. I much prefer putting people in charge like Mumby/Doncaster, Bowkett/McNally, Balls/Webber. Looking at that the problem looks obvious...

 

Age does matter imo, older folk tend to be more set in their ways and more resistant to change.

The even you must see is in reference to your unwavering support for the board and reluctance to accept change could turn out to be for the best.

[nutty nigel 7,653]

Just now, kdncfc said:

Age does matter imo, older folk tend to be more set in their ways and more resistant to change.

The even you must see is in reference to your unwavering support for the board and reluctance to accept change could turn out to be for the best.

I don't unwaveringly support the board. But I do see the difference between the board and owners.

There has been constant change at our club for the entire time Smith & Jones have been custodians. If you want to see 'set in their ways' look down the A140.  

[sgncfc 1,259]

25 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Perhaps it is because you don't understand modern football economics. Clubs that cannot generate much more cash than the TV money gives them spend all their cash on wages/transfer fees/amortisation. The basic economic fundamentals of a club do not change. By luck or good judgement the club may achieve some sporting success but this wouldn't move the club up any rungs, we would remain what we are and remain vulnerable to bad luck and bad judgement.

I largely disagree with the Delia outers but their analysis is correct, even if this leads to incorrect strategies, that a lack rich owners inhibits the club's ambitions. Also, agree with those who argue that increasing CR's capacity and amenities would grow income. Again the critique is accurate, but many of solutions proposed are unfeasible.

It is perfectly possible for a club our size to have a run of seasons in the EPL. But it is statistically unlikely, and over any given period clubs tend to trend to the mean.

Absolutely agree with this. We have spent a little bit of our PL money on infrastructure improvements but not much - a bit of rebuilding, new gym, pool etc. Nothing to impact turnover. We should have put aside £50m to rebuild the City Stand. We still should. Rather than keep paying £85-£90m a season to players who clearly aren't bothered or good enough, pay £30 to £40m to players who might want to at least try.

I've never understood the "debt free" model. Our owners seem to think it's a moral stance we should all be proud of, but I think it's incredibly naïve. There is nothing inherently wrong with well-structured debt. The mortgage analogy works if the net worth of the asset keeps increasing - and it should if it's done right. I'm starting to agree that a younger, more dynamic, more adventurous skill set at board level is a pre-requisite. 

[kdncfc 27]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

I don't unwaveringly support the board. But I do see the difference between the board and owners.

There has been constant change at our club for the entire time Smith & Jones have been custodians. If you want to see 'set in their ways' look down the A140.  

Haven't that lot down the road recently had new owners?

[nutty nigel 7,653]

21 minutes ago, kdncfc said:

Haven't that lot down the road recently had new owners?

Yes indeed. Twice since you wanted our owners replaced. So how much has changed here and how little has changed there in that time? 

Edited May 12, 2022 by nutty nigel

[kdncfc 27]

At least their owners have accepted they could do no more and tried something different, it may work this time it may not but they at least deserve some credit for having the balls to try.