Summer Transfer & Rumour Thread 2022

[horsefly 4,315]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

It changes where you need to scout- hence the sudden focus on South America and less on Eastern Europe or Scandinavia. I think when it is considered in its entirety it is more of a negative than a positive for sure, especially when looking at players from the lower divisions of big countries. 

I disagree a bit about European leagues generally being of a higher standard though. I think you get more talent coming out of the Brazilian or Argentinian Leagues than you do Denmark or Norway for example. So it is both a challenge and an opportunity. 

Yes, but how much better it would be if we had both options still fully available as was the case prior to Brexit. Buendia, Stiepermann, Trybull, Zimmermann, all players crucial to our renaissance, all players we couldn't have bought if Brexit regulations had been in place. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,801]

Saw this thread popping up again and got my hopes up we were linked to signing a centreback..

[horsefly 4,315]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

The reason I highlighted those two is that is where the new work permit rules allow us to sign players from with much greater ease.

Have the rules for signing players from non-EU countries ( e.g. South America) changed? Must admit I thought the were the same as before.

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

I'm not sure Sinani has done enough to guarantee a place on the bench tbh. I'd like to see another wide player unless Smith is planning on using Ramsey in that role.

Certainly noises of incomings and outgoings, which is exciting.

[chicken 2,644]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

The reason I highlighted those two is that is where the new work permit rules allow us to sign players from with much greater ease.

I know what the best leagues in the world are but that isn't relevant to a conversation about the post Brexit work permit rules as those are basically unchanged. 

Ok... that was your response to me pointing out how that had impacted upon our ability to sign players, which you then responded to. Now you are shutting down this avenue of conversation? Fine, I guess.

The point I was making was that whilst it may have still been difficult for us to go straight to South America, it certainly wasn't "easier" as you claim - parity perhaps. However, all of Europe could seemingly do it easier which meant we could pick up players like Buendia after they had accumulated whatever they needed to jump through hoops. It's also less of an issue when you have 26+ countries to scour, some of whom have at least two tiers of teams, like our own, full of players we may be able to sign.

Now we face the same issues the world over. Makes it considerably more difficult. I actually think we saw some of that last season. Top tier players we can afford and who would get through the system are generally players that are lower top tier players who have international experience for more lower ranked international sides. The exception to that was PLM, who's top flight experience was the main reason we could sign him.

[king canary 7,678]

Just now, horsefly said:

Yes, but how much better it would be if we had both options still fully available as was the case prior to Brexit. Buendia, Stiepermann, Trybull, Zimmermann, all players crucial to our renaissance, all players we couldn't have bought if Brexit regulations had been in place. 

But that wasn't the case prior to Brexit? It was extremely difficult to sign players from South America in this country because of strict work permit rules. It was basically impossible to sign players from Brazil for example unless they were internationals or some exceptional young talent that usually was only going to the bigger teams in the league. 

[king canary 7,678]

Just now, chicken said:

The point I was making was that whilst it may have still been difficult for us to go straight to South America, it certainly wasn't "easier" as you claim - parity perhaps. 

I'm very confused. Are you claiming it isn't easier to sign players from Brazil or Argentina as a team in the UK now? Because that is just factually incorrect.

If you're saying that recruitment in general isn't easier because some countries are now harder to recruit from and that outweights the ones it is easier to recruit from, then I agree and never really claimed otherwise. 

[horsefly 4,315]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

But that wasn't the case prior to Brexit? It was extremely difficult to sign players from South America in this country because of strict work permit rules. It was basically impossible to sign players from Brazil for example unless they were internationals or some exceptional young talent that usually was only going to the bigger teams in the league. 

Do you know of any link which explains these changes? Seems bizarre to exclude proven EU players, but reduce the requirements for non-EU players. I thought the only change was that EU players now have to meet the same requirements as all non-UK footballers. That meant there was no special privilege for EU players from the lower leagues etc.

Edited August 8, 2022 by horsefly

[king canary 7,678]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Do you know of any link which explains these changes? Seems bizarre to exclude proven EU players, but reduce the requirements for non-EU players.

This is a good overview

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveprice/2020/12/13/brexit-visa-rules-mean-premier-league-should-scout-mls-liga-mx-and-brazil/

Basically pre Brexit the only thing taken into account for signings from non EU leagues was their international appearances. Since the revamp of the rules you get 'points' depending on the strength of the league you play in. 

[horsefly 4,315]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

This is a good overview

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveprice/2020/12/13/brexit-visa-rules-mean-premier-league-should-scout-mls-liga-mx-and-brazil/

Basically pre Brexit the only thing taken into account for signings from non EU leagues was their international appearances. Since the revamp of the rules you get 'points' depending on the strength of the league you play in. 

Cheers! The sad thing is those minor changes could have been made irrespective of Brexit. Now because of Brexit we can't sign the next Buendia.

[ZLF 274]

17 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'm not sure Sinani has done enough to guarantee a place on the bench tbh.

He had a pretty successful season at this level last year, and i think that is enough to give him his chance. He certainly isnt a winger though but could do well as part of a 3 man attack should rashica or todd get injured,   seems a more natural replacement there than say hugill or sargeant.

 

He was quite anonymous when he came on on sat though.   Will be interesting to see how he takes to being an impact sub, rather than a regular starter.   

 

[king canary 7,678]

2 minutes ago, ZLF said:

He had a pretty successful season at this level last year, and i think that is enough to give him his chance. He certainly isnt a winger though but could do well as part of a 3 man attack should rashica or todd get injured,   seems a more natural replacement there than say hugill or sargeant.

 

He was quite anonymous when he came on on sat though.   Will be interesting to see how he takes to being an impact sub, rather than a regular starter.   

 

The general consensus from Huddersfield was that he was hugely inconsistent- looked fantastic one week then anonymous the next. I can't see him ever being a regular here so he has to learn to make the most of his minutes from the bench. 

[chicken 2,644]

26 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm very confused. Are you claiming it isn't easier to sign players from Brazil or Argentina as a team in the UK now? Because that is just factually incorrect.

If you're saying that recruitment in general isn't easier because some countries are now harder to recruit from and that outweights the ones it is easier to recruit from, then I agree and never really claimed otherwise. 

No, you argued it is easier now. I'm saying it is only easier relatively. I don't believe the process is any more difficult now than it was. It just wasn't worth the risk, effort and gamble to go to leagues outside of Europe generally seen as weaker. 

You know that, because you disagreed with the last part of that and suggested that they are not weaker because "Norway and Denmark".

[chicken 2,644]

12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Cheers! The sad thing is those minor changes could have been made irrespective of Brexit. Now because of Brexit we can't sign the next Buendia.

Which highlights it all doesn't it? European sides were signing the likes of Buendia before. Now we can't and they still can.

Predicament of successive governments being unable to get to grips with us being an island or series of islands. 

[king canary 7,678]

3 minutes ago, chicken said:

No, you argued it is easier now. I'm saying it is only easier relatively. I don't believe the process is any more difficult now than it was. It just wasn't worth the risk, effort and gamble to go to leagues outside of Europe generally seen as weaker. 

You know that, because you disagreed with the last part of that and suggested that they are not weaker because "Norway and Denmark".

I'm still confused.

It is a fact that it is much easier to recruit from Brazil, Argentina or many other leagues outside of Europe now. It isn't a matter of belief. I've even linked to something above. 

[chicken 2,644]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm still confused.

It is a fact that it is much easier to recruit from Brazil, Argentina or many other leagues outside of Europe now. It isn't a matter of belief. I've even linked to something above. 

Just read the article and it backs up what I've said tbh. It's relative.

It's not an easier process now to sign players from Brazil, or any other South American side, it's that it is more difficult to sign lower division players from Europe due to the points system.

Best way I can explain it is thus:

You have two players, one A is from Europe, one B is from South America.

Pre-Brex:
A just requires the usual paperwork as freedom of movement means no work permit required. Signs, can play from the get go, on your way.

B requires paper work and to meet the criteria of a work permit. It's a harder process and one that does not always end in success. Some work arounds including the player being bought and loaned to a club in a country who's league is of a higher standing and who's work permit laws are more relaxed.

Post:
A is now ineligible as they play at a lower level and is now subject to the same work permit rules as player B.

B, nothing has changed other than EU leagues are now much harder to recruit players from. Perceptively they are "easier" to sign, but nothing has changed. They aren't "easier" to sign than before, they are the same. Player A has simply become harder to sign, or not sign at all.

Does that make sense? The process hasn't become easier. Nothing has changed to make it "easier" as such other than EU sources of players becoming harder.

It's like not being the fastest car in the race but winning because the quickest cars crash out or have engine failure. Your car hasn't become faster, the driver isn't better. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by chicken

[king canary 7,678]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

Just read the article and it backs up what I've said tbh. It's relative.

It's not an easier process now to sign players from Brazil, or any other South American side, it's that it is more difficult to sign lower division players from Europe due to the points system.

Best way I can explain it is thus:

You have two players, one A is from Europe, one B is from South America.

Pre-Brex:
A just requires the usual paperwork as freedom of movement means no work permit required. Signs, can play from the get go, on your way.

B requires paper work and to meet the criteria of a work permit. It's a harder process and one that does not always end in success. Some work arounds including the player being bought and loaned to a club in a country who's league is of a higher standing and who's work permit laws are more relaxed.

Post:
A is now ineligible as they play at a lower level and is now subject to the same work permit rules as player B.

B, nothing has changed other than EU leagues are now much harder to recruit players from. Perceptively they are "easier" to sign, but nothing has changed. They aren't "easier" to sign than before, they are the same. Player A has simply become harder to sign, or not sign at all.

Does that make sense? The process hasn't become easier. Nothing has changed to make it "easier" as such other than EU sources of players becoming harder.

It's like not being the fastest car in the race but winning because the quickest cars crash out or have engine failure. Your car hasn't become faster, the driver isn't better. 

Sorry but that is just wrong.

For player B things have changed. The work permit criteria factors in things it didn't pre rule changes. The entire points based system has been reshaped and now gives points to players for the strength of the domestic league they play in, which it didn't beforehand. 

[chicken 2,644]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Sorry but that is just wrong.

For player B things have changed. The work permit criteria factors in things it didn't pre rule changes. The entire points based system has been reshaped and now gives points to players for the strength of the domestic league they play in, which it didn't beforehand. 

Does that make it "harder" though. Are there examples of players regularly failing to get permits from South America? Or is it more a case of it was more hassle so less time was spent scouting?

Again, like I say, it has a lot more to do with EU players now facing the same rules than any rules being "easier".

In the case of Nunez, I think someone already pointed out the league he was playing in isn't considered very high, it was more his international appearances that helped his case.

[king canary 7,678]

Just now, chicken said:

Does that make it "harder" though. Are there examples of players regularly failing to get permits from South America? Or is it more a case of it was more hassle so less time was spent scouting?

Again, like I say, it has a lot more to do with EU players now facing the same rules than any rules being "easier".

In the case of Nunez, I think someone already pointed out the league he was playing in isn't considered very high, it was more his international appearances that helped his case.

Yes, there are plenty of examples of players not getting work permits from South America pre these changes. The article I shared as it mentions one- Douglas Luiz.

Another link for you, with a bit more detail on the changes- https://worldfootballindex.com/2020/12/work-permits-premier-league-post-brexit-english-clubs-efl-libertadores/

A couple of key quotes...

The first big change (especially from a WFi perspective!) is that it’s far easier for a club to get a work permit for a South American player now than it was under the previous entry requirements.

Its appears that, in trying not to make it as difficult as it might have been to sign players from the EU post-Brexit, the authorities have also made it easier to sign players from other continents, especially South America.

This is due to the fact that the Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamerica are considered the same ‘Band’ of continental competition (Band 1 and 2 — the highest) as their European equivalents, the Champions League and Europa League.

[chicken 2,644]

18 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes, there are plenty of examples of players not getting work permits from South America pre these changes. The article I shared as it mentions one- Douglas Luiz.

Another link for you, with a bit more detail on the changes- https://worldfootballindex.com/2020/12/work-permits-premier-league-post-brexit-english-clubs-efl-libertadores/

A couple of key quotes...

The first big change (especially from a WFi perspective!) is that it’s far easier for a club to get a work permit for a South American player now than it was under the previous entry requirements.

Its appears that, in trying not to make it as difficult as it might have been to sign players from the EU post-Brexit, the authorities have also made it easier to sign players from other continents, especially South America.

This is due to the fact that the Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamerica are considered the same ‘Band’ of continental competition (Band 1 and 2 — the highest) as their European equivalents, the Champions League and Europa League.

Right, so the main element appears to be recognising the South American continental tournaments as the key changer.

I was right in that banding wise, the Danish league is considered to be below that and I can't even see the Norwegian league on the banding... I guess that means internationals and champions league teams in those leagues are the only ones that would qualify.

In any case, that link is far better than the first, which is the type of piece I had ready many times before. "English clubs to look to South America as it it's easier to sign players from there than Europe now." Which is complete different to saying that it is actually "easier" per se, to sign players from South America.

Similar sort of process, just relaxed in a couple of areas it seems. Though in theory, also according to that, it is still "easier" to sign European players in the top 5 ranked leagues - just we cannot afford many of those players in terms of transfer fees or wages. The banding just happens to have changed so other leagues are considered to be less.

Interestingly, the article almost appears to suggest it disagrees with this, or that it may have been a bit accidental in terms of making South America on a par with European competitions... I guess we'll have to wait and see if it changes in due course.

From what I can see, you are correct, though it is both some of column A and column B. If both levels were considered equally, I suspect we'd still be shopping in Europe (actually, we seem to have evidence of that). It's become harder so we have gone for the next best/easiest option.

[Samwam27 532]

So in summary there's no real transfer new then 🤣 🤣 🤣

[Nuff Said 5,178]

6 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

So in summary there's no real transfer new then 🤣 🤣 🤣

Oh yes there is!

Behind you!

[Monty13 2,252]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

Yes, there are plenty of examples of players not getting work permits from South America pre these changes. The article I shared as it mentions one- Douglas Luiz.

Another link for you, with a bit more detail on the changes- https://worldfootballindex.com/2020/12/work-permits-premier-league-post-brexit-english-clubs-efl-libertadores/

A couple of key quotes...

The first big change (especially from a WFi perspective!) is that it’s far easier for a club to get a work permit for a South American player now than it was under the previous entry requirements.

Its appears that, in trying not to make it as difficult as it might have been to sign players from the EU post-Brexit, the authorities have also made it easier to sign players from other continents, especially South America.

This is due to the fact that the Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamerica are considered the same ‘Band’ of continental competition (Band 1 and 2 — the highest) as their European equivalents, the Champions League and Europa League.

Great article, thanks for the link 👍 

Credit where it’s due looks like Webber and his team are using the new rules to good effect. 

[Haus 259]

According to Instagram, we have another signing to be announced tomorrow 

[Top corner 229]

Which Instagram account please? 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

On 08/08/2022 at 13:51, chicken said:

This is a bit of an odd position to take. You are comparing two of South America's arguably top divisions Vs two of Europe's lesser rated leagues. Honestly, that's a ridiculous statement.

The top leagues in the world are in Europe. England, Germany, Italy, Spain - the best four top flight leagues in the world. France, Scotland and Holland are not far behind. The 2nd tier in most of those nations is also of a very good standard. Then you have outlying leagues that also produce a lot of good players. There are plenty of Norwegian, Swedish, Danish players out there in the top European leagues.

I don't think it's an unfair statement at all, and probably reflective of the amount of money in football in Europe. But to try and disagree by comparing those leagues?

Scotland and Holland are miles behind. The French League is easily on par with Germany. Or did you just forget about the PSG squad? Germany is essentially a one team league with Bayern same as France is with PSG is argue the 3 under PSG in France are probably a stronger 3 than the 3 in Germany. 
 

Spain and Italy have quality leagues on par with England. The difference is in England we have 6-10 debatably massive clubs who with the right manager and investment could win the league in Spain you have 3 and in Italy maybe 5 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

On 08/08/2022 at 13:58, horsefly said:

Have the rules for signing players from non-EU countries ( e.g. South America) changed? Must admit I thought the were the same as before.

For work permits the rules are essentially the same the difference is before EU players could live and work freely within the EU without the need for a work permit. the rules are the same now though for all players not from the UK so it makes it harder for us to bring in players from the Spanish second tier like Buendia (Spanish passport) or the German second division as they likely do not meet the points requirements. Meaning no more finds from the lower European leagues for us. 

[king canary 7,678]

23 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

For work permits the rules are essentially the same the difference is before EU players could live and work freely within the EU without the need for a work permit. the rules are the same now though for all players not from the UK so it makes it harder for us to bring in players from the Spanish second tier like Buendia (Spanish passport) or the German second division as they likely do not meet the points requirements. Meaning no more finds from the lower European leagues for us. 

Oh my christ...

[Mr Angry 1,571]

On 08/08/2022 at 13:54, horsefly said:

Yes, but how much better it would be if we had both options still fully available as was the case prior to Brexit. Buendia, Stiepermann, Trybull, Zimmermann, all players crucial to our renaissance, all players we couldn't have bought if Brexit regulations had been in place. 

Not quite correct-Zimmermann would have got 2 points, Stiepermann 11 points, Buendia 13 points and Trybull 17 points.

So we would have been able to sign Trybull and we could have applied to the Exceptions Panel for a permit for Buendia (although that wouldn’t have been guaranteed).

[HazzaJet 256]

Have just seen rumours that Manure are considering signing Aarons