Full circle and moving forwards

[lake district canary 4,562]

The Webber era is plainly coming to an end and history will show that his overall contribution for us has been brilliant as there is no problem in recognising his achievements - even getting Dean and Shaky in may be seen in a good light if they do well next season. Yes, the two PL seasons have been nightmares, not all Webber's fault by any means, but overall there have been more positives than negatives.

So presuming he leaves now, what will his legacy be?  A strong club with loads of very decent young players, a quality manager and assistant, good finances and a club with loads of potential to do well again. Yes, he hired our best asset, then sacked him - but he has shown the way forwards and we are still in a good place.

Some people have been droning on about how the club is falling apart. Ridiculous. So there has been a turn over in staff - happens in all walks of life in all sorts of businesses. Financially we are still strong, the infrastructure of the club is superb compared to five years ago and we have loads of good players - and we have a stable ownership at the club that repeatedly rides these storms out and keep the progression of the club going in a good direction.

Ya da ya da, yes, we've been relegated again - that is not the issue here, the issue is always how we move forwards - not cry about the difficulties - and there we are strong.  The club is bigger than Webber, thanks for your work and efforts, not good enough at the highest level, but then it was always going to be difficult with our self-funding policy. 

So onwards and upwards. Webber going is not a disaster, not a big deal, just a bit if a shame it looks as if he has lost a bit of goodwill. Good luck to him, it's been a roller coaster of a ride for five years....but then that is football and Norwich City. Never a dull moment....wouldn't have it any other way!!

[Midlands Yellow 4,118]

His legacy on a personal level is that he failed twice to mix it with the best. Accused others of pissing money up the wall then replicates that himself. Not half as good as he thinks he is and no top club will come calling any time soon. 

[Capt. Pants 4,329]

From BOD upwards I'm not sure the club is strong, to the extent I'm actually quite worried about it. We have ageing owners losing touch with reality and a BOD who appear to be pretty damn clueless. The signs were there right from the BK8 shambles.

If Webber leaves we need a strong candidate to reinvent NCFC or get back to where we were before. Adams doesn't have that wider strategic vision?

I worry we've further to fall yet. When Webber leaves and if we don't hit the ground running next season, the crosshairs will switch pretty swiftly to the owners.

[Monty13 2,280]

The facilities, youth system and financials are good, that’s a good legacy and also springboard for potential further success.

Given the lessons we’ve learnt the club needs to get personnel right from the board down to the playing field if it wants to move forward.

Better oversight is needed of the SD and football organisation, the scouting and recruitment structure could clearly do with further investment and the squad needs to be rebuilt with some targeted quality.

I don’t think we are a million miles away from where we need to be, but I also agree there is a risk we really could go sliding backwards if key decisions aren’t well made.

[lake district canary 4,562]

28 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

The facilities, youth system and financials are good, that’s a good legacy and also springboard for potential further success.

Given the lessons we’ve learnt the club needs to get personnel right from the board down to the playing field if it wants to move forward.

Better oversight is needed of the SD and football organisation, the scouting and recruitment structure could clearly do with further investment and the squad needs to be rebuilt with some targeted quality.

I don’t think we are a million miles away from where we need to be, but I also agree there is a risk we really could go sliding backwards if key decisions aren’t well made.

Maybe we need Ed Balls back for a while. Not without controversy, but he was reportedly the brains behind getting a Sporting Director in.

[Monty13 2,280]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Maybe we need Ed Balls back for a while. Not without controversy, but he was reportedly the brains behind getting a Sporting Director in.

Who knows who, but too much power centralised and unchecked in any organisation never leads to anything good IMO.

[Ulfotto 664]

I think his legacy is being honest about what Norwich is about. We buy cheap players with potential work with the academy and sell them. These sales fund a wages to turnover ratio we could not otherwise afford. This aligned to coaches who play good football and want to develop players.

He cops a lot of stick for soccerbot but you can’t sell the club as a good place to develop your career when the training ground is a bunch of portakabins.

I don’t think anyone has been as honest about how we sell players and try to develop players. I actually like this clarity you know in the summer we will sell maybe Aarons and Cantwell and buy a load of random players you have never heard of.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ulfotto

[shefcanary 2,503]

Hi Lakey, I do love your optimism.  I have nothing against that, but in the interest of debate do allow me to totally pull apart your OP.  Nothing personal but I do feel you are overlooking areas of real concern. 

The Webber era is plainly coming to an end

Agreed, but think there are still some skirmishes to come on this because of the lack of good corporate governance at the Club.

but overall there have been more positives than negatives.

TBH, not entirely convinced of this statement.  For a Football Club, the overriding assessment of how well you are doing is on the pitch.  In that respect realistically we are back where we started! At the moment I think the squad is in a worse position than when Webber came in, albeit with some as yet unproven talent waiting in the wings, but they have to deliver before your statement can be unqualified.

So presuming he leaves now, what will his legacy be?  A strong club with loads of very decent young players, a quality manager and assistant, good finances and a club with loads of potential to do well again.

The young players have not yet proven themselves on the pitch.  The manager has yet to prove he can get the team playing in a confident manner.  The assistant has a good track record, but further success depends on how his knowledge is used by the manager.  The balance sheet is relatively strong for a football club, there are parachute payments to break the impact of relegation, but once again the model we operate under has proven to not provide sufficient finance to break into the EPL as a relatively permanent member. The potential remains but as you will see below, I am not convinced the club is now in a position to make the most of it.

but he has shown the way forwards and we are still in a good place.

Has he? I assume by this you mean that a long serving Sporting Director is more important than allowing the man in charge of team affairs ("the manager") free reign over all football matters.  The very fact we seem to be losing this particular Sporting Manager seems to suggest it is not the way forward we thought it was going to be.  Sporting Directors seem to have bigger ego's than the managers they supposedly employ!

Some people have been droning on about how the club is falling apart. Ridiculous. So there has been a turn over in staff - happens in all walks of life in all sorts of businesses.

Once again I will get on my favoured hobby horse.  Corporate Governance at the club is a mess.  It is way off where best practise says it should be.  No Chair, no CEO, no accountability anywhere, which for a PLC organisation is criminal.  If governance was better, the Board could hold the executive to account for the increased turnover in senior positions (and this is where I take issue with your statement - we are not talking junior staff, but relatively senior people some of whom have made a success of their time at the club as evidenced by them going on to similar positions elsewhere).  In addition the debacle over BK8 would not have happened.  The latter farce and the incident over the weekend also show the club have lost touch with the fans, otherwise the article and the subsequent fracas outside the main entrance would not have happened.  All the signs are there that the club is indeed falling apart.   

Financially we are still strong, the infrastructure of the club is superb compared to five years ago

Colney has been improved, but we have missed a major opportunity to improve the ground.  The cost of capital has been incredibly low over the past ten years, and yet no major improvement when it was needed most.  This is now borne out by the 70% salary budget limit on turnover that looks increasingly likely to be implemented within 5 years.  We will be hamstrung by not making the most of increased capacity on match days and the associated hospitality income that would come with it.  It is currently impossible for us to be a top 26 club based on income now if all other clubs attract 90% capacity; it makes everything we try and do from now on so much harder!  

and we have loads of good players.

We have about 5 proven good players!  Which I would argue is not loads!

and we have a stable ownership at the club that repeatedly rides these storms out and keep the progression of the club going in a good direction.

Our two major shareholders are both in their 80's and are looking increasingly frail, some may even argue they are showing a few signs of senility.  They could drop dead at any moment and have been issuing statements that seem to suggest they still have no real succession plan in place given the flip-flopping that has been revealed in recent public statements.  Even Foulger seems to be hiving his shares off into a family trust, which again is unproven to have the same sense of support that he has, no matter what the trust deed says.  As for riding out storms, it is said publicly outside of our NCFC bubble that the club is a joke.  Yes, the willingness of the supporters to accept yet another relegation does help the club ride out storms.  However there are real signs that patience is wearing thin, not just on social media but by the increasingly empty seats at matches.

the issue is always how we move forwards

We await the post-season statements from the club, if Webber does go as a result of the current issues then Ward will certainly have to go too (which I have set out very clearly reasons in other threads has to happen otherwise any sense of there being even a smidgeon of corporate governance at the club has gone).  There will be a need a to appoint a very strong CEO and confirmation of the Sporting Director model with a strong appointment there as well.  That is a lot of work for the club to do in a short space of time with a relatively inexperienced remaining executive and a board that I would argue is well past its best.  So, yes, there are issues over moving forward, some really big issues which I do not think the club is in a good position to overcome!

The club is bigger than Webber, Webber going is not a disaster, 

Absolutely agree that should be the position of the first part of the statements, but unfortunately due to imperfect corporate governance, it is not well placed to operate without him.  I am feeling extremely uneasy over what the next few months are going to bring and I am usually a Percy Positive, but at the moment I am miles off that.  Note that I have not said Smith & Jones should go, but they do need to change their approach to how the club is run a Board and Executive level and need to make some key decisions over what their succession policy is and to stick with that once decided to remove further uncertainty.

I apologise if that makes some people queasy, but I really think a degree of realism is called for with significant changes in the corridors of Carrow Road before we really see the Club stride forward confidently.

 

 

[Petriix 2,857]

Let's go back to the end of last season. We'd won the league with a record points haul. Farke signed a new 4 year contract. We had an identity and a clear vision running through the club. We had the biggest transfer budget in our history. 

Fast forward to today. Farke is gone. The identity is gone. The money is gone. Unlike our previous relegation the assets are gone too. It's hard to be positive about the future at this point.

Regardless of where you lay the blame, things don't look great. I'll reserve judgement until we see what the squad looks like after the summer. After 10 games next season we'll have an idea where we are. I fear we're facing a significant decline. 

[rock bus 875]

32 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Let's go back to the end of last season. We'd won the league with a record points haul. Farke signed a new 4 year contract. We had an identity and a clear vision running through the club. We had the biggest transfer budget in our history. 

Fast forward to today. Farke is gone. The identity is gone. The money is gone. Unlike our previous relegation the assets are gone too. It's hard to be positive about the future at this point.

Regardless of where you lay the blame, things don't look great. I'll reserve judgement until we see what the squad looks like after the summer. After 10 games next season we'll have an idea where we are. I fear we're facing a significant decline. 

This is bang on and why I am really worried about this relegation and our future.

The other thing we have lost which is vital is the sense of unity within the club. One of the most impressive things of the webber/Farke renaissance (although I'd give Farke most of the credit) was that it had the whole club pulling along as one..the owners, board, manager, players and fans. We all bought into the vision and even with the knockback of the previous relegation there was a sense of togetherness and belief we could get back again.

That's totally gone and we've sunk to the level where our Sporting Director has admitted he is no longer fully engaged and is getting involved in verbal scraps with fans.

Things have really unfolded this season and I cant see who at the club is going to get us united and bring the belief we will need to fight for promotion next year (I cant see it being Delia, Webber or Smith). Big changes are needed.

Edited April 27, 2022 by rock bus

[hogesar 9,817]

Assuming he leaves end of this season, despite the really basic premise being the same (i.e relegated from the Prem) - Webber will have left the club in a far better state than McNally did, and has actually left some form of legacy beyond mountains of debt.

[City 2nd 191]

3 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Who knows who, but too much power centralised and unchecked in any organisation never leads to anything good IMO.

Exactly Monty. We have a current DOF who has been given far too much power by our aged owners, but as you get older you do tend to get others to do it for you to a degree! The question now is do we really need a DOF at all?

[sgncfc 1,264]

The lack of corporate governance does worry me and the speed with which it fell apart between May and October last year was mind blowing. The lack of communication and the general malaise which was allowed to set in over those first few matches set the tone for the whole season and the Board is at fault for much of it.

Having said that, the jury is still out on most of the players we acquired and I still think there might be a couple of gems in there, so I'm not quite yet on the "Webber must go" bandwagon. No doubt he has made some blinding errors and losing some of the fans (and it really is only a few dozen very vociferous ones) is not a good look.

This summer will be interesting. Will everything settle down, we go with what we have or do we let Smith and Shakespeare mould their team and spend a bit? We clearly will have cash available from some sales and savings, but will we wait this time to see how we start?

As ever, being a Norwich fan is never boring. Imagine supporting 1p5wich......

[corbs 147]

“It is said publicly that the club is a joke “ - really? I love this ‘laughing stock’ trope. If you go on other fans message boards you invariably find numerous announcements that “the club is now a joke”. No doubt this is true of some, Manchester United maybe. We’ve got real challenges ahead, not least to rebuild the unity at the club which Webbers tenure has eaten away at; but to be a Norwich fan these last few decades is to have been blessed. 

[Badger 2,415]

7 hours ago, City 2nd said:

We have a current DOF who has been given far too much power by our aged owners, but as you get older you do tend to get others to do it for you to a degree!

You sure? I used to be accused of being a control freak! 😀

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

His legacy on a personal level is that he failed twice to mix it with the best. Accused others of pissing money up the wall then replicates that himself. Not half as good as he thinks he is and no top club will come calling any time soon. 

I can only assume that David McNally's pay off came with a NDA and he committed not to talk about his time at the club, because he's surely had to bite his tongue a few times.

I know that he did once point out on twitter that  Naismith only became a problem because his successors failed to take us back up at first attempt, and we do have to acknowledge that under McNally we achieved 2 promotions out of a possible 2. Every other season was in the top flight.

He may have a point. Perhaps he would have taken us back up.

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

10 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Maybe we need Ed Balls back for a while. Not without controversy, but he was reportedly the brains behind getting a Sporting Director in.

I definitely feel happier with us having a Chairman, whether that's Bowkett or Balls.

Something settling about having an additional figurehead, a spokesperson for the board.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

8 hours ago, hogesar said:

Assuming he leaves end of this season, despite the really basic premise being the same (i.e relegated from the Prem) - Webber will have left the club in a far better state than McNally did, and has actually left some form of legacy beyond mountains of debt.

Did that debt occur as a result of McNally spending, or of his successors failing to get us promoted on a big budget. Surely we need to see what we look a year or two down the road to see what sort of state Webber has left us in, and then we can have a debate about whether it is Webber or his successors fault, the problem lies when you end up in the Championship with lots of players on Premier League level wages. That occurs post-relegation, not whilst you are in the top tier.

McNally never failed to lead us to a promotion in any Football League season. 

And some of the money he spent in the allegedly poor January transfer window was spent on Maddison and Godfrey who were later sold for a combined £50m, which puts the £8m spent on Naismith into perspective.

I'm struggling to see which of Webber's signings will generate £20m+ a piece for his successors to fund their version of a squad rebuild, I suppose Omobamidele has a chance of being one although after 16 games and one bad injury... far too early to be certain about that and it won't be any time soon.

Edited April 27, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

12 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

His legacy on a personal level is that he failed twice to mix it with the best. Accused others of pissing money up the wall then replicates that himself. Not half as good as he thinks he is and no top club will come calling any time soon. 

I don't agree that he's sent any money up the wall, given that, even going down, we're in a far stronger financial position than when he arrived. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

13 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Did that debt occur as a result of McNally spending, or of his successors failing to get us promoted on a big budget. Surely we need to see what we look a year or two down the road to see what sort of state Webber has left us in, and then we can have a debate about whether it is Webber or his successors fault, the problem lies when you end up in the Championship with lots of players on Premier League level wages. That occurs post-relegation, not whilst you are in the top tier.

McNally never failed to lead us to a promotion in any Football League season. 

And some of the money he spent in the allegedly poor January transfer window was spent on Maddison and Godfrey who were later sold for a combined £50m, which puts the £8m spent on Naismith into perspective.

I'm struggling to see which of Webber's signings will generate £20m+ a piece for his successors to fund their version of a squad rebuild, I suppose Omobamidele has a chance of being one although after 16 games and one bad injury... far too early to be certain about that and it won't be any time soon.

Yes it did, given that McNally had done exactly what fans had demanded, i.e. spend heavily on the squad both in outlay and salaries, which sadly didn't result in survival either, but did hurt a lot more in the Championship that we will after this relegation .

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yes it did, given that McNally had done exactly what fans had demanded, i.e. spend heavily on the squad both in outlay and salaries, which sadly didn't result in survival either, but did hurt a lot more in the Championship that we will after this relegation .

How can you possibly know this?

You don't know whether we owe installments on transfers, what our current wage bill is.

And how do you know that we wouldn't have returned at first attempt under McNally and therefore avoided the need for the second season firesale?

Webber has had to sell every year to fund his spending and balance the books, last time we were relegated it was Godfrey and Lewis for £41m. 

Only Aarons left to sell, no wonder he wants out, nobody else to flog to fund his forays into the German market. 

[komakino 275]

11 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Who knows who, but too much power centralised and unchecked in any organisation never leads to anything good IMO.

Balls was better than he got credit for, but I always thought Delia overruling him on wanting to sack Neill after relegation jarred somewhat. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

How can you possibly know this?

You don't know whether we owe installments on transfers, what our current wage bill is.

And how do you know that we wouldn't have returned at first attempt under McNally and therefore avoided the need for the second season firesale?

Webber has had to sell every year to fund his spending and balance the books, last time we were relegated it was Godfrey and Lewis for £41m. 

Only Aarons left to sell, no wonder he wants out, nobody else to flog to fund his forays into the German market. 

The point over whether we'd return if McNally stayed is academic because he left. We do know that the burden of a lot of the salaries of players tied into long contracts on high salaries hurt the club substantially after relegation. We also know that Webber has been very frugal in relation. 

And the players sold have mostly accrued value while at the club under Webber's tenure. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,246]

28 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I can only assume that David McNally's pay off came with a NDA and he committed not to talk about his time at the club, because he's surely had to bite his tongue a few times.

I know that he did once point out on twitter that  Naismith only became a problem because his successors failed to take us back up at first attempt, and we do have to acknowledge that under McNally we achieved 2 promotions out of a possible 2. Every other season was in the top flight.

He may have a point. Perhaps he would have taken us back up.

 

My memory may be imperfect, though the ‘famous’ Naismith-Klose-Pinto window (I think 2 out of 3 were good, Naismith also looking a good signing on paper) also included Maddison and Godfrey didn’t it?

Not quite ‘pissing it up the wall then?…one man’s cost today is another man’s investment return tomorrow?

I’m not sure of the above…Am I right anyone?

Parma 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

My memory may be imperfect, though the ‘famous’ Naismith-Klose-Pinto window (I think 2 out of 3 were good, Naismith also looking a good signing on paper) also included Maddison and Godfrey didn’t it?

Not quite ‘pissing it up the wall then?…one man’s cost today is another man’s investment return tomorrow?

I’m not sure of the above…Am I right anyone?

Parma 

Yep, I say that down thread.

Difficult to see where Webber has left £50m worth of talent to liquidate to fund his successors rebuild.

If you ask me the fact that we're down to just Max Aarons left to flog for serious money may be why he's decided he's ready for the next chapter! 

Edited April 27, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,246]

23 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Yep, I say that down thread.

Difficult to see where Webber has left £50m worth of talent to liquidate to fund his successors rebuild.

If you ask me the fact that we're down to just Max Aarons left to flog for serious money may be why he's decided he's ready for the next chapter! 

If one was feeling mischievous one might observe that the £5m for the training ground came from the fans, £50m came from McNally’s ‘pissed up the wall’ window, £15m from Lewis was in the building and the £30m earned from Buendia was spent on Sargent-Tzolis-Rashica. And arguably neutered Pukki and cost us our only strategic weapon to disrupt the (any) opposition’s preferred starting shape…

..the family silver ‘left’ for the future ‘as a trustee’ is what? Aarons (pre-existing) and the un-replaced Pukki (who is a great buy for someone, though not likely to bring us a great sum).

‘How will history treat you Winston?’

’Excellently. I intend to write it myself’…

Parma 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

7 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

If one was feeling mischievous one might observe that the £5m for the training ground came from the fans, £50m came from McNally’s ‘pissed up the wall’ window, £15m from Lewis was in the building and the £30m earned from Buendia was spent on Sargent-Tzolis-Rashica. And arguably neutered Pukki and cost us our only strategic weapon to disrupt the (any) opposition’s preferred starting shape…

..the family silver ‘left’ for the future ‘as a trustee’ is what? Aarons (pre-existing) and the un-replaced Pukki (who is a great buy for someone, though not likely to bring us a great sum).

‘How will history treat you Winston?’

’Excellently. I intend to write it myself’…

Parma 

Wouldn't surprise me massively if Pukki just does his one more year here then goes and plays out his career in Finland where he's a national superstar.

Edited April 27, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Duncan Edwards 2,274]

Omobamidele is surely worth a fair few quid, isn’t he? 

[hogesar 9,817]

1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Omobamidele is surely worth a fair few quid, isn’t he? 

Equally, signing Pukki on a free and firing us to two Premier League promotions could arguably account for a large proportion of the circa £140 million in parachute payments, to counter @Parma Ham's gone mouldy latest post above.

[kenfoggo 247]

As Sporting Director Webber has certainly lost his way. Last year promoted with a good squad, a committed Head Coach, excellent unity in the Club and money to spend. This year the squad has been decimated with inadequate replacements, the committed ahead Coach sacked and replaced by an uncommitted salary man, unity in the Club completely destroyed with high profile staff clamouring to leave and unedifying confrontations with Supporters at the ground, money all spent with non available to strengthen the squad in the  crucial January transfer window. Sad to see and difficult to envisage this chaos being resolved with Webber in place. The Chairman should step in and oversee his replacement, but wait…. we have no Chairman!