Solving the creativity problem in the champs

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

47 minutes ago, king canary said:

Man City can spend $$$$$ on the best players in the world though. We can't.

And the best players in the world aren't 6ft4 lumps. That's my point.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,736]

10 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

And the best players in the world aren't 6ft4 lumps. That's my point.

You saying Peter Crouch wasn't one of the worlds greatest strikers?😉

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

Didn't someone post this video a couple of years back, think his name was Danel Sinani.... or something like that!  To be fair he looks pretty good.    

So who thinks if the measure of a player to keep is 'he will rip up the Championship next season' that will improve us sufficient to mount a sustainable effort at the EPL if we 'rip up the Championship' and got promoted again?    A bit like, playing McLean and Rupp (and a loan player) last season really prepared us well for this season.      Sargent will not be ripping up any English League anytime soon.   Neither will McLean, Rupp, Zimmermann, Gibson, Platcheta or Hugill nor probably Dowell despite the hysteria from two good performances.....    If you want a decent competitive team in the EPL, most of this lot have to go so we can develop better. 

Incredible how all of a sudden, this really difficult Championship league that teams struggle to get out of has all of a sudden become really easy!    It hasn't!   

[Samwam27 527]

As much as I hate to say it Mclean will be solid in Championship, if unspectacular. I'd get rid of Rupp (too injury prone), Hugill (done nothing all season in EFL), Placheta (no idea what he brings) and Zimm (need an upgrade)

I suspect Gibson can be solid in EFL, but would like Omo & Hanley to be our first choice, so we'll need re-enforcements in defence. I have no idea if Sargent can be effective, or a goal scorer in EFL. Only time will tell, but could go same way as Hugill and be a very expensive substitute. He's young and can improve though.

Dowell has shown he can be very effective in EFL, and rash is contracted to us, and will take some prizing away at a solid profit before Webber would even consider (same with Giann), but with him & Rowe likely to be exciting, Tzolis a chance to start improving, we have grounds for effective attacking midifeld, but would like to see this strengthened (same with upgrade on Mclean).  

If Normann isn't tempted, or is affordable, one hopes Sorensen can start filling a void, but this looks an area we need to strengthen. 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

5 hours ago, kick it off said:

Mateusz Musialowski - Polish 18 year old in Liverpool's academy. Prime for a championship loan i would think after excelling in academy level football. Known as "the Polish Messi". His playing style is very similar to Messi in terms of carrying the ball and running directly at players but somehow getting by them (not comparing talent levels, just style). Scores goals for fun, and plays with flair and creativity.

Quite interesting suggestions but this loaning idea is fundamentally flawed.   Yes, loan out, but remember Oliver Skipp last year, great player, he got us promoted, we couldn't fill the gap he left and the debacle of this season resulted.    We've had the debate before but loans don't help us develop talent that would avoid us having to spend big on a promotion.    

We loaned a few this year too....  the experience suggests loaning players with little experience is a major gamble; as good as Skipp was on the pitch, Gilmour has been the opposite yet our own staff (Sorensen for example) have missed out.   Kabak was rarely available, cost us a lot and when he was, he struggled to get in the team.... Williams also inexperienced hasn't made much of a difference except to frustrate our employed left-back who at least can attack and offer some balance.   Normann to be fair seemed to settle quicker and offered something that would suggest loaning experienced players to help out might be the way to go.    Kids moving away from home, inexperienced, not familiar with a new culture, club or league, likely unsetttled yet expected to flourish is an expectation to far.    Ask Billy!  

No evidence otherwise that loaning players is going to help us develop a team capable in the EPL.    We should develop our own so that on a promotion any funds can be spent on additions, not replacements for those returning to parent clubs or deemed not capable.    Can only hope the club will learn lessons from these experiences. 

[Newtopia 517]

3 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Quite interesting suggestions but this loaning idea is fundamentally flawed.   Yes, loan out, but remember Oliver Skipp last year, great player, he got us promoted, we couldn't fill the gap he left and the debacle of this season resulted.    We've had the debate before but loans don't help us develop talent that would avoid us having to spend big on a promotion.    

We loaned a few this year too....  the experience suggests loaning players with little experience is a major gamble; as good as Skipp was on the pitch, Gilmour has been the opposite yet our own staff (Sorensen for example) have missed out.   Kabak was rarely available, cost us a lot and when he was, he struggled to get in the team.... Williams also inexperienced hasn't made much of a difference except to frustrate our employed left-back who at least can attack and offer some balance.   Normann to be fair seemed to settle quicker and offered something that would suggest loaning experienced players to help out might be the way to go.    Kids moving away from home, inexperienced, not familiar with a new culture, club or league, likely unsetttled yet expected to flourish is an expectation to far.    Ask Billy!  

No evidence otherwise that loaning players is going to help us develop a team capable in the EPL.    We should develop our own so that on a promotion any funds can be spent on additions, not replacements for those returning to parent clubs or deemed not capable.    Can only hope the club will learn lessons from these experiences. 

When we dipped into the loan market, I was expecting us to use it for experienced quality cover, bringing in the young players with potential seems a huge gamble, unless you think they might stay at the end, and it is done on a sort of try before you buy approach.  

[sgncfc 1,228]

It has never been a possibility that Normann would stay to play in the Championship even if we were prepared to shell out for him , which I don't believe we would be. Can see Fulham taking him on.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

26 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

When we dipped into the loan market, I was expecting us to use it for experienced quality cover, bringing in the young players with potential seems a huge gamble, unless you think they might stay at the end, and it is done on a sort of try before you buy approach.  

Not in the case of Williams, Gilmour or Skipp or Kabak. We could never afford them.    It is a huge gamble, agreed and one that is just not worth pursuing!    What would be the point of loaning this Liverpool polish lad?    We couldn't afford him, he would prevent us producing one of our own and if he's any good, it would cost us a fortune to replace him on a promotion.   Not sustainable!   

We've spent £10m on Tzolis, we have to give him a chance at least and an environment where he has a better chance of succeeding.  We have Sinani who could do a job and continue to develop, Cantwell, Rowe, Martin, Dickson-Peters, Springett, they all have potential..... we have enough talent to develop we need CDM's, 3 of them as the priority.  

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Didn't someone post this video a couple of years back, think his name was Danel Sinani.... or something like that!  To be fair he looks pretty good.    

So who thinks if the measure of a player to keep is 'he will rip up the Championship next season' that will improve us sufficient to mount a sustainable effort at the EPL if we 'rip up the Championship' and got promoted again?    A bit like, playing McLean and Rupp (and a loan player) last season really prepared us well for this season.      Sargent will not be ripping up any English League anytime soon.   Neither will McLean, Rupp, Zimmermann, Gibson, Platcheta or Hugill nor probably Dowell despite the hysteria from two good performances.....    If you want a decent competitive team in the EPL, most of this lot have to go so we can develop better. 

Incredible how all of a sudden, this really difficult Championship league that teams struggle to get out of has all of a sudden become really easy!    It hasn't!   

They can’t all go, there’s zero guarantee if we somehow unloaded all of them and somehow had millions to upgrade all of them on paper that in practice we’d actually be any better.

We can’t financially keep resetting the entire team, we need to add quality to what we have. Every player you mentioned (bar Placheta and Hugill) has proven they can do a job in the Premier League they just aren’t the quality needed to take us further. But we can’t afford 11 of those players.

We can afford 1-2 and take a gamble on the potential of a few others to make it.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Monty13

[Monty13 2,235]

13 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

It has never been a possibility that Normann would stay to play in the Championship even if we were prepared to shell out for him , which I don't believe we would be. Can see Fulham taking him on.

I’ll be very surprised if he’s not playing for one of the promoted teams in the PL next season. I don’t think he’s shown enough to interest many established PL teams but one of them will snap him up.

[Newtopia 517]

I think he has shown potential, this season I think our recruitment team put a lot of faith in him,  he was signed late, and then missed a lot of games through injury.

if they can get him on the field enough I reckon he is a good addition to a premiership squad.

[Capt. Pants 4,246]

49 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I’ll be very surprised if he’s not playing for one of the promoted teams in the PL next season. I don’t think he’s shown enough to interest many established PL teams but one of them will snap him up.

I wouldn't be so sure. If the prime motive for buying him is avoiding relegation, then he probably hasn't done himself any favours.

He has some positive features for sure, but lacks the athleticism and physicality for the Premier League imo.

[Monty13 2,235]

46 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I wouldn't be so sure. If the prime motive for buying him is avoiding relegation, then he probably hasn't done himself any favours.

He has some positive features for sure, but lacks the athleticism and physicality for the Premier League imo.

I mean its possible, and if he really can’t find any interest from a PL club I’d hope we snap him up, just find it unlikely.

Also I suppose it raises the question if no PL team wants him should we pay a good portion of our budget on him. I’m still inclined to say yes as he’s the best of our poor midfield.

[Terminally Yellow 2,454]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

I’ll be very surprised if he’s not playing for one of the promoted teams in the PL next season. I don’t think he’s shown enough to interest many established PL teams but one of them will snap him up.

I suspect the Ukraine war will play a part too. There could be a lot of Russian-based players looking to rescind their contracts this summer and be available particularly cheap. If Normann is among this number, I expect a relegation battling side might take a chance. 

[stratton canary 134]

The lad Chair at QPR would be ok, better than Gilmour.! 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

In answer to the original question - Yes! Scott Twine!  

 

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,736]

17 minutes ago, stratton canary said:

The lad Chair at QPR would be ok, better than Gilmour.! 

He's no Adel Taarabt 😉

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

A central defensive midfielder and a striker would be my priorities ahead of a creative midfielder.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

3 hours ago, Monty13 said:

They can’t all go, there’s zero guarantee if we somehow unloaded all of them and somehow had millions to upgrade all of them on paper that in practice we’d actually be any better.

We can’t financially keep resetting the entire team, we need to add quality to what we have. Every player you mentioned (bar Placheta and Hugill) has proven they can do a job in the Premier League they just aren’t the quality needed to take us further. But we can’t afford 11 of those players.

We can afford 1-2 and take a gamble on the potential of a few others to make it.

That’s not resetting the entire team but yes we can cope without all of those listed.   We have to speculate to accumulate if you like….    Any available money needs spending on CDM’s as a priority, even to develop.   
 

Name one of those players mentioned that has proven they can do a job in the EPL?   Surely you don’t need reminding we are rock bottom and have been utterly woeful this entire season and the last one!   McLean (no), Dowell (not yet), Rupp (no), Sargent (no), Zimmermann (no).   Along with Platcheta and Hugill (definite no’s),    Only one of those has the potential to benefit us next season, Dowell, but the jury is still out!
 

Not suggesting we spend fortunes on replacements, we need to get youngsters in the team and develop them.   Can’t do that if they aren’t playing or someone who can’t step up or a loan is preventing them playing!   
 

With this philosophy we have to move on otherwise we will never be good enough.   We need a situation where we have a good enough squad so on a promotion we can add to it with signings not have to replace players.   McLean is a perfect example, should have been replaced on last relegation, wasn’t and he continues to be our go to midfielder when he’s nowhere near the level!  

Would you advocate loan signings next season and if so what would we gain from it?   In my view we won’t progress with loan signings.

 

[Monty13 2,235]

30 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

That’s not resetting the entire team but yes we can cope without all of those listed.   We have to speculate to accumulate if you like….    Any available money needs spending on CDM’s as a priority, even to develop.   
 

Name one of those players mentioned that has proven they can do a job in the EPL?   Surely you don’t need reminding we are rock bottom and have been utterly woeful this entire season and the last one!   McLean (no), Dowell (not yet), Rupp (no), Sargent (no), Zimmermann (no).   Along with Platcheta and Hugill (definite no’s),    Only one of those has the potential to benefit us next season, Dowell, but the jury is still out!
 

Not suggesting we spend fortunes on replacements, we need to get youngsters in the team and develop them.   Can’t do that if they aren’t playing or someone who can’t step up or a loan is preventing them playing!   
 

With this philosophy we have to move on otherwise we will never be good enough.   We need a situation where we have a good enough squad so on a promotion we can add to it with signings not have to replace players.   McLean is a perfect example, should have been replaced on last relegation, wasn’t and he continues to be our go to midfielder when he’s nowhere near the level!  

Would you advocate loan signings next season and if so what would we gain from it?   In my view we won’t progress with loan signings.

 

We are rock bottom because the team collectively aren’t good enough.

In the right circumstances all the players you originally mentioned (bar Placheta and Hugill) can contribute if other members of the team are upgraded.

Like I said we can’t afford to definitely upgrade more than 1-2 and speculatively upgrade the others.

We will never be good enough if we have to replace the number of players you are talking about every season, like we did last summer incidentally at great expense and the team collectively are no better really.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Monty13

[king canary 7,609]

6 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

And the best players in the world aren't 6ft4 lumps. That's my point.

You're point might make some sense if we were in a position to sign the best players in the world. We're not. Having a bunch of lovely technical midgets saw us bullied out of the league not long ago. 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

14 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

We are rock bottom because the team collectively aren’t good enough.

In the right circumstances all the players you originally mentioned (bar Placheta and Hugill) can contribute if other members of the team are upgraded.

Like I said we can’t afford to definitely upgrade more than 1-2 and speculatively upgrade the others.

We will never be good enough if we have to replace the number of players you are talking about every season, like we did last summer incidentally at great expense and the team collectively are no better really.

The team is collectively not good enough that’s correct.   Neither manager has been able to get them to function, primarily and without doubt (based on the evidence in front of us all) because those players quoted aren’t good enough at this level.  There are no right circumstances where any of them (except possibly but not likely) Dowell can improve.

What other members of the team do you think we can upgrade if it’s not these?   I am only advocating one upgrade, a CDM plus get some CDMs to develop.   The rest may be an initial step back to move forward!  We still have Krul, Gunn, loads of keepers, Byram, poss Aaron’s, Mumba, Hanley, Omobamidele, Tomkinson, Famewo?, Bushiri, Giannoulis, McCullum, Sorensen, Lees-Melou, Rashica, Tzolis, Cantwell?, Rowe, Sinani, Martin, Adshead, McAlear, Dowell?, Idah, Pukki, Springett, Dickson-Peters, Clarke, Gibbs, Riley, Kamara, and others.    The main players mean we can afford some speculative development.    I’d argue that based on the evidence of the past two EPLs, and our funds / philosophy, we can’t not afford to speculatively develop.       

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

11 hours ago, king canary said:

You're point might make some sense if we were in a position to sign the best players in the world. We're not. Having a bunch of lovely technical midgets saw us bullied out of the league not long ago. 

There are not 25 brilliant midgets that all play for Man City and all other players under 6ft4 are useless. There are numerous examples of this across the world and history. Emi Buendia being a very obvious one for us recently. Of course there are positions where you need physicality and of course its tough to get a team full of brilliant small players like Barcelona had in 2012 or Man City (to a degree) have now, but its equally difficult to get a team full of power and size and have any success as well when you're a club with no money. Packing the team full of athletic lumps won't work (Watford and Burnley are also going down) and even if you managed to scrape enough points to stay up this way, it would likely be unpleasant on the eye. Not for me thanks.

[king canary 7,609]

19 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

There are not 25 brilliant midgets that all play for Man City and all other players under 6ft4 are useless. There are numerous examples of this across the world and history. Emi Buendia being a very obvious one for us recently. Of course there are positions where you need physicality and of course its tough to get a team full of brilliant small players like Barcelona had in 2012 or Man City (to a degree) have now, but its equally difficult to get a team full of power and size and have any success as well when you're a club with no money. Packing the team full of athletic lumps won't work (Watford and Burnley are also going down) and even if you managed to scrape enough points to stay up this way, it would likely be unpleasant on the eye. Not for me thanks.

I'm not advocating filling the entire team with them, just that we could use a couple of brick ****house types to make us more difficult to play against. It doesn't follow that those players have to be useless with the ball at their feet, I'm just tired of seeing teams march through our midfield as if it isn't there time after time.

[Monty13 2,235]

10 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The team is collectively not good enough that’s correct.   Neither manager has been able to get them to function, primarily and without doubt (based on the evidence in front of us all) because those players quoted aren’t good enough at this level.  There are no right circumstances where any of them (except possibly but not likely) Dowell can improve.

What other members of the team do you think we can upgrade if it’s not these?   I am only advocating one upgrade, a CDM plus get some CDMs to develop.   The rest may be an initial step back to move forward!  We still have Krul, Gunn, loads of keepers, Byram, poss Aaron’s, Mumba, Hanley, Omobamidele, Tomkinson, Famewo?, Bushiri, Giannoulis, McCullum, Sorensen, Lees-Melou, Rashica, Tzolis, Cantwell?, Rowe, Sinani, Martin, Adshead, McAlear, Dowell?, Idah, Pukki, Springett, Dickson-Peters, Clarke, Gibbs, Riley, Kamara, and others.    The main players mean we can afford some speculative development.    I’d argue that based on the evidence of the past two EPLs, and our funds / philosophy, we can’t not afford to speculatively develop.       

We are already losing the 4 loans this summer, probably Rupp as well although I’d be tempted to give him a 2 year contract personally. Cantwell has almost certainly played his last game for us.

Thats potentially 5-6 replacements needed before anyone leaves (and someone will).

I doubt any of the senior loans are coming back into the fold plus none of the loaned youngsters have had exceptional seasons from what I can tell.

Writing off players like Gibson (who cost us about 8 million didn’t he?), Sargent (who cost more and is still a youngster with huge potential), Dowell, McClean and Zimmerman is foolish to me given we already need so much new blood and the more we dilute our funds with signings the lower quality they will be. 

The next summer if hopefully we get promotion some more players can be upgraded but given our limited funds I’d rather us focus those upgrades personally.

 

[king canary 7,609]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

We are already losing the 4 loans this summer, probably Rupp as well although I’d be tempted to give him a 2 year contract personally. Cantwell has almost certainly played his last game for us.

Thats potentially 5-6 replacements needed before anyone leaves (and someone will).

I doubt any of the senior loans are coming back into the fold plus none of the loaned youngsters have had exceptional seasons from what I can tell.

Writing off players like Gibson (who cost us about 8 million didn’t he?), Sargent (who cost more and is still a youngster with huge potential), Dowell, McClean and Zimmerman is foolish to me given we already need so much new blood and the more we dilute our funds with signings the lower quality they will be. 

The next summer if hopefully we get promotion some more players can be upgraded but given our limited funds I’d rather us focus those upgrades personally.

 

Yeah it would be foolish to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. However I'm not convinced we're losing all that much with the departures we know are coming this summer. Once the loanees go back and we write off Cantwell we still have...

GK- Gunn, Krul

RB- Aarons, Byram, Mumba

LB- Giannoulis, McCallum

CB- Gibson, Hanley, Omobamidele, Zimmerman

CM- McLean, Sorenson, PLM, Rupp (if he signs a new deal)

Attacking Mids- Tzolis, Rashica, Rowe, Sargent, Dowell, Placheta

CF- Pukki, Idah

...and that is without including some more senior loanees (Onel, Hugill), younger fringe players like Josh Martin and the ones who've been involved in the first team squad training for the final few weeks of the season (Tomkins, Springett, Clarke, Gibbs, Kamara Aboh). 

I'm expecting Aarons will leave and maybe Rashica. If they both go along with Cantwell I still don't see huge holes in the squad.

In my view we'd be better off adding 3 or 4 quality players in key positions and relying on the younger players for depth than trying to replace 6 or 7 players. 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Next season, for me, should be about getting as many minutes into Omobamidele, Idah, Tzolis, and Lungi as possible. Rowe might need more endurance work, let's see if Sinani looks good in pre-season, and let's see if any of the other youngsters do an Omo and grab their opportunities in pre-season to work with the seniors. I'd hope Adshead is there, maybe Tomlinson as well.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

41 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not advocating filling the entire team with them, just that we could use a couple of brick ****house types to make us more difficult to play against. It doesn't follow that those players have to be useless with the ball at their feet, I'm just tired of seeing teams march through our midfield as if it isn't there time after time.

We should first look for good players. If they happen to be massive, fine, but if they're not, also fine. Skipp was not even close to being a big lump but what a difference he would have made this year. We do lack someone prepared to put their foot in in the midfield, that I totally agree with. 

[king canary 7,609]

24 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Next season, for me, should be about getting as many minutes into Omobamidele, Idah, Tzolis, and Lungi as possible. Rowe might need more endurance work, let's see if Sinani looks good in pre-season, and let's see if any of the other youngsters do an Omo and grab their opportunities in pre-season to work with the seniors. I'd hope Adshead is there, maybe Tomlinson as well.

Yeah I agree with this- we need those 4 to step up and see exactly how could they could be. However Sinani may not be up to us- Huddersfield have a fee agreed in his loan so if they trigger that he may well be gone before we can take a look.

[Renskay 36]

I don't know why exactly but I'd prefer us to sign a domestic based player because our transfer business from abroad this season shows that we've underestimated the adaptation period it actually takes to readjust to a new league/country/play style/language/ etc. 

It seems it is far more of a factor than the scouting team accounted for.

Players don't just slot in to a new side perfectly on talent alone.

Teams like Brentford regularly pluck domestic talent from English lower leagues and mould them to be better players for their first team. We should try to do the same.

That being said my creative midfield picks would be either of Scott Twine (MK Dons), John Swift (Reading - Free Agent in Summer), Jed Wallace (Millwall - Free Agent in Summer)or Callum O'Hare (Coventry).

I'd really like us to sign a dead ball specialist because it's been a common theme that our set pieces have been atrocious for years now.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Renskay