I would rather lose playing proper football...

[Petriix 2,847]

I fear that, by the time we hit the Championship next season, the players will have forgotten how to actually play football. I can't understand how we've gone from having a clear philosophy throughout the club to this: absolutely no attempt to win.

Dean Smith is taking us backwards. All the work that Farke did has been undone. We're playing loanees who don't give a sh*t about our club. We've abandoned our style for hoofball. I don't recognise the team anymore.

I've never detested a player wearing the Norwich shirt as much as Billy Gilmour. Every second he is on the pitch is another kick in the stomach. Watching him jog back, not bothering to get goal-side of his man is grueling. How on earth Sorensen is being kept out of the team is mystifying. We need to be playing our own players and building a system for next season.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

At the last home game, which is so long ago I don't remember who we played, Brandon Williams set off to chase a hoof down the line that he had no hope of catching. He then turned round and bellowed "PLAY FOOTBALL". So obviously that's the intent but too many aren't brave enough.

[hogesar 9,711]

6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

At the last home game, which is so long ago I don't remember who we played, Brandon Williams set off to chase a hoof down the line that he had no hope of catching. He then turned round and bellowed "PLAY FOOTBALL". So obviously that's the intent but too many aren't brave enough.

Yes, hard to forget that.

[canarydan23 4,060]

7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

At the last home game, which is so long ago I don't remember who we played, Brandon Williams set off to chase a hoof down the line that he had no hope of catching. He then turned round and bellowed "PLAY FOOTBALL". So obviously that's the intent but too many aren't brave enough.

Play football? Wow, it's a wonder we're in this mess with that Guardiola-level of instruction. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

As much as I was upset during DFs tenure this season, we couldn't complain that there was structure and a tactic. That the players that Webber brought in couldn't play to that standard was the reason we started badly. And then we beat Brentford. Then the stupidity that was evident with the Hughton/Adams decision.

Now it's just clueless and careless.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Play football? Wow, it's a wonder we're in this mess with that Guardiola-level of instruction. 

Really??

It was something I've never seen before in 55 seasons.

 

[Duncan Edwards 2,252]

7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

At the last home game, which is so long ago I don't remember who we played, Brandon Williams set off to chase a hoof down the line that he had no hope of catching. He then turned round and bellowed "PLAY FOOTBALL". So obviously that's the intent but too many aren't brave enough.

We have a non-existent midfield. They’re, to a man, not good enough going forward or defending. Just all very, very beige footballers. So we don’t play “football” because we don’t have the technicians to do so, I expect the defenders and attackers know this and likely don’t trust them in tight possession and so bypass them.

But, we’ve been like it since the first day of the season under both managers. We couldn’t/didn’t replace Emi like-for-like and as such had to change the way we played. We opted for more pace and physicality, I suppose in the hope being more “direct” would reap some benefits but it hasn’t worked at all. But, for all that, the player we miss most is Skipp, if we’d somehow managed to keep or replace him then someone doing that defensive screening might even free up some of our beige midfielders into looking a bit more effective. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

Really??

It was something I've never seen before in 55 seasons.

 

No, I've never seen it either. Smith is obviously a trailblazing genius.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

No, I've never seen it either. Smith is obviously a trailblazing genius.

Oh ok.

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Oh ok.

 

"Play football"

I'm still awed by this.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

"Play football"

I'm still awed by this.

Oh. Ok.

[Monty13 2,239]

7 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

We have a non-existent midfield. They’re, to a man, not good enough going forward or defending. Just all very, very beige footballers. So we don’t play “football” because we don’t have the technicians to do so, I expect the defenders and attackers know this and likely don’t trust them in tight possession and so bypass them.

But, we’ve been like it since the first day of the season under both managers. We couldn’t/didn’t replace Emi like-for-like and as such had to change the way we played. We opted for more pace and physicality, I suppose in the hope being more “direct” would reap some benefits but it hasn’t worked at all. But, for all that, the player we miss most is Skipp, if we’d somehow managed to keep or replace him then someone doing that defensive screening might even free up some of our beige midfielders into looking a bit more effective. 

For at least the last 10-15 years we’ve always had a player that makes us tick on the ball.

Hoolahan-Maddison-Buendia.

We don’t have anyone remotely like that now.

For pretty much as long as I can remember we’ve always looked pretty much creatively abject without that player on the pitch, now we’ve seen a season of it.

[Well b back 3,250]

Unfortunately it’s a no win, when we were playing football in the prem under DF many were saying we can’t play like this it’s all about winning.

[Canary Jedi 579]

4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

For at least the last 10-15 years we’ve always had a player that makes us tick on the ball.

Hoolahan-Maddison-Buendia.

We don’t have anyone remotely like that now.

For pretty much as long as I can remember we’ve always looked pretty much creatively abject without that player on the pitch, now we’ve seen a season of it.

We’ve not only had that, we also used to have good competition for that place. Now we have no creative midfielders. 

However, even if we did have a creative midfielder, I’m not sure it would make much difference to our current team. 

Against a poor Brighton side we were terrible. Offered very little. Watching Norwich currently is like going to the dentist. You have to do it, but it’s not an enjoyable experience.  

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

21 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

For at least the last 10-15 years we’ve always had a player that makes us tick on the ball.

Hoolahan-Maddison-Buendia.

We don’t have anyone remotely like that now.

For pretty much as long as I can remember we’ve always looked pretty much creatively abject without that player on the pitch, now we’ve seen a season of it.

The closest to that style of player is Dowell but he is never going to fit into a Dean Smith team.

Hoofball is what we've got now for the foreseeable. He will pack us with athletes, launch throw ins into the box and get a set piece specialist in. It's what a large section of the fanbase have been calling for so we will see how it ends. Not for me though, I find it thoroughly miserable.

[Petriix 2,847]

54 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Unfortunately it’s a no win, when we were playing football in the prem under DF many were saying we can’t play like this it’s all about winning.

Not me. I was always happy playing the right way, even if results weren't going for us. I can't stand the 'brand of football' we're seeing under Dean Smith.

[Sooty57 403]

1 hour ago, Canary Jedi said:

Watching Norwich currently is like going to the dentist. 

And almost as expensive.

Always assuming you can get an appointment (which will probably be much easier at CR next season)

[Branston Pickle 3,669]

33 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

The closest to that style of player is Dowell but he is never going to fit into a Dean Smith team.

Hoofball is what we've got now for the foreseeable. He will pack us with athletes, launch throw ins into the box and get a set piece specialist in. It's what a large section of the fanbase have been calling for so we will see how it ends. Not for me though, I find it thoroughly miserable.

Odd that getting a set-ball specialist in is used as a criticism here - many said it was something we were crying out for under DF, when we looked utterly clueless from corners most of the  time.  And long throws? - Brentford are very much a football side but use them. A lot.

No one wants hoofball, and I’m pretty certain it isn’t DS’s style either, but mixing it up and being less predictable was also one of the biggest complaints about DF.  Oh how things are so easily forgotten!

.

[aBee 151]

30 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Odd that getting a set-ball specialist in is used as a criticism here - many said it was something we were crying out for under DF, when we looked utterly clueless from corners most of the  time.  And long throws? - Brentford are very much a football side but use them. A lot.

No one wants hoofball, and I’m pretty certain it isn’t DS’s style either, but mixing it up and being less predictable was also one of the biggest complaints about DF.  Oh how things are so easily forgotten!

.

Smith isn’t a hoofball manager. Often at both Brentford and Villa the complaint was too much passing it around sideways and backwards, particularly after having passed up into the final third, being too patient to find an opening rather than taking a risk to get it in and take a shot. If that’s what he’s got you doing it’s because he doesn’t think the players you have can play the passing game effectively in the PL. Which is perhaps not unfair given what came before. If you go down you’ll be back to a passing game. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,227]

I lean more towards @Petriix ‘s view that we may dangerously drift into incoherent squad-building and a fundamental shift from our previous philosophy, which was clear and connected to financial Realisms. 

Talking like we ‘can’t judge until we let the new manager buy his own team’ slips dangerously back into the yo-yo manager-centric spending that we can neither afford, nor which fits the sporting director model. 

So what are we now? What kind of players do we want? What is the goal for that spending and direction?

If we say we want Premier League style players - more power, physicality, height et al - we will simply end up with Championship ersatz versions which ironically will be unlikely to get us out of the championship. We will simply look like every other half-baked Championship wannabe side that will cost money and still not be good enough overall for the premier….….or our previous model, philosophy and structure is right, we are Swansea-Man City lite and developing our own players for progress or money?

So which is it?

What do we see in front of us? What’s the coherent model, the identity, the refined methodology that will amortise our lack of finance? Where does it all fit together?

As Darren Kenton said - with candour- ‘players move for money’ and ‘the Chelsea academy funds the first team’ - they know they can’t make players good enough, so they hoover them, brand them and sell them on to lower level clubs and use the money to buy stars…

The point of a sporting director system is to smooth out these erratic manager-led peaks and troughs, good spending vs bad spending, players I like vs players you like. A theme, a model an identity, a coherence….something that extends beyond the shelf-life of any single manager. The selection of managers that have a similar outlook, that play a similar way, so players - and the sparsely-available money spent on them is as well-protected and ‘investment-purchase’ as possible. 

We look a little lost up a mountain at present..

Parma 

[Monty13 2,239]

2 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

The closest to that style of player is Dowell but he is never going to fit into a Dean Smith team.

Hoofball is what we've got now for the foreseeable. He will pack us with athletes, launch throw ins into the box and get a set piece specialist in. It's what a large section of the fanbase have been calling for so we will see how it ends. Not for me though, I find it thoroughly miserable.

We built teams around Hoolahan, Maddison and Buendia. 

I don’t mean to disrespect Dowell but he’s not in those three’s league.

[......and Smith must score. 1,349]

Back home.

One of the most deflating football experiences I’ve had in years. No cohesion, no shots on target, no effective midfield.

Brighton weren’t all that but they bossed us from beginning to end. We absolutely stole a useless point.

Today has been a total embarrassment 

[Branston Pickle 3,669]

1 hour ago, aBee said:

Smith isn’t a hoofball manager. Often at both Brentford and Villa the complaint was too much passing it around sideways and backwards, particularly after having passed up into the final third, being too patient to find an opening rather than taking a risk to get it in and take a shot. If that’s what he’s got you doing it’s because he doesn’t think the players you have can play the passing game effectively in the PL. Which is perhaps not unfair given what came before. If you go down you’ll be back to a passing game. 

I’m aware of this - watched quite a lot of Brentford in the last 10 years or so (if not this season) - but many are convinced he’s a long ball guy.  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

46 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

We built teams around Hoolahan, Maddison and Buendia. 

I don’t mean to disrespect Dowell but he’s not in those three’s league.

Agreed. That wasn't my point though.

[Monty13 2,239]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

 

I lean more towards @Petriix ‘s view that we may dangerously drift into incoherent squad-building and a fundamental shift from our previous philosophy, which was clear and connected to financial Realisms. 

Talking like we ‘can’t judge until we let the new manager buy his own team’ slips dangerously back into the yo-yo manager-centric spending that we can neither afford, nor which fits the sporting director model. 

So what are we now? What kind of players do we want? What is the goal for that spending and direction?

If we say we want Premier League style players - more power, physicality, height et al - we will simply end up with Championship ersatz versions which ironically will be unlikely to get us out of the championship. We will simply look like every other half-baked Championship wannabe side that will cost money and still not be good enough overall for the premier….….or our previous model, philosophy and structure is right, we are Swansea-Man City lite and developing our own players for progress or money?

So which is it?

What do we see in front of us? What’s the coherent model, the identity, the refined methodology that will amortise our lack of finance? Where does it all fit together?

As Darren Kenton said - with candour- ‘players move for money’ and ‘the Chelsea academy funds the first team’ - they know they can’t make players good enough, so they hoover them, brand them and sell them on to lower level clubs and use the money to buy stars…

The point of a sporting director system is to smooth out these erratic manager-led peaks and troughs, good spending vs bad spending, players I like vs players you like. A theme, a model an identity, a coherence….something that extends beyond the shelf-life of any single manager. The selection of managers that have a similar outlook, that play a similar way, so players - and the sparsely-available money spent on them is as well-protected and ‘investment-purchase’ as possible. 

We look a little lost up a mountain at present..

Parma 

Insightful post as usual Parma.

I’d argue Smiths playing with what he’s got right now, and I think we all agree they aren’t good enough.

The only time he seemed to be getting us to play pretty effectively was with Idah on the pitch IMO.

I both understand the calls that he (or Webber/Adams or combination) needs to make some changes because ultimately the squads not good enough, but also I am really concerned if that leads to massive changes in the squad and philosophy.

This summer is absolute crunch time. I personally think we need to sign a few quality players (what we should have done this year IMO) and continue a progression, like you say we just can’t afford an effective wholesale change.

[Petriix 2,847]

15 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Insightful post as usual Parma.

I’d argue Smiths playing with what he’s got right now, and I think we all agree they aren’t good enough.

The only time he seemed to be getting us to play pretty effectively was with Idah on the pitch IMO.

I both understand the calls that he (or Webber/Adams or combination) needs to make some changes because ultimately the squads not good enough, but also I am really concerned if that leads to massive changes in the squad and philosophy.

This summer is absolute crunch time. I personally think we need to sign a few quality players (what we should have done this year IMO) and continue a progression, like you say we just can’t afford an effective wholesale change.

How can a squad go from its best ever season to not good enough in such a short space of time?

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

I'd rather lose with owners who show a slight bit of ambition to stay in the top flight. I guess I'm destined to be disappointed, unlike the majority of Norwich City fans.

 

 

[Monty13 2,239]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

How can a squad go from its best ever season to not good enough in such a short space of time?

Well it wasn’t the best ever season. Regardless it lost it’s two best players from that season, are playing much higher quality opposition and tried to play in a different way.

I think there’s still a lot of players in that squad who are good enough as part of an effective team but there’s too much quality missing to make an effective team at this level IMO. 

[Danke bitte 967]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

Insightful post as usual Parma.

I’d argue Smiths playing with what he’s got right now, and I think we all agree they aren’t good enough.

The only time he seemed to be getting us to play pretty effectively was with Idah on the pitch IMO.

I both understand the calls that he (or Webber/Adams or combination) needs to make some changes because ultimately the squads not good enough, but also I am really concerned if that leads to massive changes in the squad and philosophy.

This summer is absolute crunch time. I personally think we need to sign a few quality players (what we should have done this year IMO) and continue a progression, like you say we just can’t afford an effective wholesale change.

This is a great post. It perfectly sums up where we are right now. 

I don’t think we need to worry about the immediate future. We’re **** right now but it’s because we’re in transition. 

The worse place to be in transition is in the Premeir League.

However I have absolute faith that Smith, given the time, will create a team that will be robust in the Championship and give the Prem a good go. 

Right now, what we’re seeing is the demise of a squad that has no identity or cohesion. That’s not Smith’s fault. Fault lies with the signing of these players. 

All Smith can do is see out this painful season and assess how to build for the following with a squad that represents his own image and ability.

[Ken Hairy 3,774]

11 hours ago, Petriix said:

I've never detested a player wearing the Norwich shirt as much as Billy Gilmour. Every second he is on the pitch is another kick in the stomach. Watching him jog back, not bothering to get goal-side of his man is grueling. How on earth Sorensen is being kept out of the team is mystifying. We need to be playing our own players and building a system for next season.

100% this, agree with every single word...... Just in case I've not made my feelings clear on wee Billy yet 😉 I utterly detest the sight of him in a City shirt like no other player before, I cannot wait for this season to end if only to never have to witness it again.