As a club we will get left behind

[Mullet 293]

22 minutes ago, Badger said:

I would quite like to have a bet with you that this won't be the case.😁

(I only bet on sure things)

Ok I'll remind you of this at the end of the season Badger, we won't keep a clean sheet

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

Just to insert a level of fact into our discussions, Sky did an average league position measured over 50 years a couple of years ago. It is a little out of date (2 years) but that will not make much difference. This shows that our average position over the last 50 years is just below 22nd (22.2). 

Using this, we are currently 2 places above our average position, which suggests that our ownership model has not disadvantaged us.

* Just a technical point on averages - our average of 22nd is the 15th highest. This is due to the nature of averages - think about it, to average 1st you would have to be first every time.

https://tribuna.com/en/news/arsenal-2020-02-06-alternative-premier-league-table-based-on-50year-average-position-where-do-arsenal-rank/

I just added the last two season's to Ipswich and Norwich's figures to give us an average for the last 52 years.

Ipswich's new average is 23.1

Our's is 22.1.

Just in case anyone was interested.

[Herman 9,825]

13 minutes ago, Mullet said:

Ok I'll remind you of this at the end of the season Badger, we won't keep a clean sheet

I think that's already the case for a few.😀

[nutty nigel 7,623]

45 minutes ago, Mullet said:

Absolutely you summed it up no matter what we try we hit a our ceiling. I'm glad the club has made more of an effort to compete in the Premier league compared to last time by spending some money but you can see that selling one Premier league rated player for £35 million and replacing him with 3 championship players worth £10 million each is actually not achieving anything. But that is were we are its just hard to comprehend that the club broke the transfer record twice in one week and we haven't progressed much beyond our last effort in the Premier league. We develop players and make lots off profit off the back of that, we then sell that player to an established Premier league team, good for them but we are going round in circles.

 

So if we improve on our position of two seasons ago will the club have achieved something and progressed?

You appear to be making massive assumptions on the basis of these  two games.

[nutty nigel 7,623]

39 minutes ago, Mullet said:

But if you want to compete in Formula 1 do you buy a couple of Formula 1 cars or 8 go carts.

When are they bringing that in? Is it instead of the cross bar challenge?🙃

[Mr Angry 1,571]

54 minutes ago, Mullet said:

But if you want to compete in Formula 1 do you buy a couple of Formula 1 cars or 8 go carts.

A very poor analogy, as far as I know each Formula 1 team is only allowed to have two cars at each race.

[Badger 2,412]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

I just added the last two season's to Ipswich and Norwich's figures to give us an average for the last 52 years.

Ipswich's new average is 23.1

Our's is 22.1.

Just in case anyone was interested.

Thanks.

Yes our average position has been increasing for some years now, unlike Ipswich who had a rich sugar daddy owner. Kind of suggests that rather than being left behind we are making steady progress.

[Badger 2,412]

1 hour ago, Mullet said:

Ok I'll remind you of this at the end of the season Badger, we won't keep a clean sheet

Yes - please remember this bet! I just wish I could put money on it with you!😀

[Commonsense 645]

2 hours ago, Uncle Fred said:

Plenty PSG, Man City, Chelsea the list goes on and on 

Yup you’re right. We’re slap in the middle of a huge metropolis. Surely there’s a sheikhdom somewhere looking to buy. It’s so easy to just dismiss all the failed examples isn’t it? By the way the list of failures of so called mega rich owners is considerably longer than the list of successes you quote. 
still we did lose to Man City. Who would have thought that possible?

[chicken 2,642]

6 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

This doesn't make sense to me either. We just won the championship with record points. Other clubs who remained in the PL for more than one season never got back and some are in League One.

This will be our sixth season in the PL since 2010. I think some people would prefer we got relegated in 2014 and were now in League One. Of course it would be better if we'd spent every season since 2010 in the PL. Is that really your benchmark?

I read yesterday that we are no closer to Man City than we were 2 years ago. That's true. But they just spent 100m on one player. Which clubs are closer to Man City than 2 years ago?

 

That will only be true come the end of the season. To get closer to Man City we need to beat the teams that aren't Man City, Liverpool etc.

People are getting far too wound up by two games.

[Indy 3,315]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

That will only be true come the end of the season. To get closer to Man City we need to beat the teams that aren't Man City, Liverpool etc.

People are getting far too wound up by two games.

Again it’s not about the result it’s about the performance, the recruitment and the priorities. We started this weekend with 8 players from our championship team, a 20 year old who’s only played a handful of senior games and two new signings who came in to replace two players who left our squad in Buendia and Skipp, arguably our best two players from last year.

Yes I know we still have 9 days left till the transfer window closes but reality is we fielded a weaker starting 11 side than we finished with last season! That’s not great place to be.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Indy

[chicken 2,642]

14 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I just added the last two season's to Ipswich and Norwich's figures to give us an average for the last 52 years.

Ipswich's new average is 23.1

Our's is 22.1.

Just in case anyone was interested.

I wonder what it would be if you took away the last 11 years and 6 years in the prem? Lower than the lot down the road I should imagine. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

I wonder what it would be if you took away the last 11 years and 6 years in the prem? Lower than the lot down the road I should imagine. 

I don't. Why would I? It's a bit like saying, "I wonder what position in the Championship we would have been last year if you took away 11 of our wins and 6 of our draws? A lot lower than 1st I should imagine".

Edited August 23, 2021 by canarydan23

[Badger 2,412]

3 hours ago, chicken said:

I wonder what it would be if you took away the last 11 years and 6 years in the prem? Lower than the lot down the road I should imagine. 

Perhaps a better comparison would be 2008 - 2021. The we could compare the impact of a club with a very rich and generous owner to a club where they have to be self-sustaining.

[Essjayess 307]

I wonder if the Baggies forums ever have similar topics to this one here as i believe since the turn of the millenium WBA have yo-yoed even more than City. Many clubs , including us, over the past few decades, have managed to stay in the Prem for 3 or 5 or more seasons. Many of those clubs, once relegated, then fail to return to the Prem for long periods, just check the Champs and L1, those divisions are littered with such clubs.

Talk on this topic of City reaching their glass ceiling...wth is a glass ceiling anyway? I guess going with that analogy then Palace, Soton, Burnley etc have reached their's?..in the bottom half of the Prem, season after season worrying if theyve enough to avoid the drop?...a bit like Stoke, Wigan etc...until they got relegated and could not find the  answer to immediately climb straight back into the Prem.

To those that somehow have forgotten our past decade...yes that recent..in that time we have had a spell of more than one consecutive season in the Prem, but also seem to easily forget how perilous our plight was just 3 or 4 years back. The club needed a complete root and branch overhaul...not just the old and aged squad, but the whole club itself.

SW then DF were brought in and thats where we are at...a club run our model, which is incredibly rare in the top two divisions, virtually starting from scratch, planting that small acorn, watching it  grow and progress year  after year. I know, i know, we will never be a tall majestic Man City type oak tree (nowhere near unless an Uncle Fred type suggested guy comes along, and even then the tall oak tree has more chance of toppling than standing majestically) but we can grow more right now and are doing so, but slowly, with careful pruning, survive for years and shine wonderfully  above the weeds and thistles and broken black  wheelie bins of the surrounding landscape.

[Hardhouse44 261]

On 22/08/2021 at 11:14, Mullet said:

As more and more investors look to take over football clubs we will gradually fall down the pecking order.

We now find ourselves behind Watford, Leeds, Brentford, Palace, Brighton, Burnley to name a few and this has happened within the past 10 years and would have been unthinkable back then. But as every year goes by another team with the necessary buying power will over take us. We are trying to keep up with our alternative model of buying and developing young players but as admirable as that is, this is not the model that works for the top league.

I think whilst our model stays the same we are not progressing

 

Alas, I think you’re right and I’ve said many times we risk missing that promotion back and everything crumbling beneath us. 
 

Have we actually signed a premiership quality player in this window. Really? One that another premiership team would want. It remains to be seen and god I hope we have. But I’m not convinced. Because I’m not convinced that we can. That they would come if others were interested. We signed players from clubs who needed the money or want to off load their bad investments. Players not good enough for the mighty Burnley!    
 

I think it’s a case of whilst our model stays we can’t progress. We’ve reach a ceiling, above which a model like our can’t take you!

Edited August 23, 2021 by Hardhouse44

[CowboyCanary 38]

On 22/08/2021 at 03:57, 1902 said:

Unthinkable to be behind Leeds in the queue for investment....

Since I don't know, have there been any serious inquiries about outside investment?

[1902 1,167]

42 minutes ago, CowboyCanary said:

Since I don't know, have there been any serious inquiries about outside investment?

I'm sure thats a genuine question, but that's opening up a pinkun can of worms if I have ever seen one. Honestly, I don't know but if I were an investor with no prior loyalties, I would have put my money in Leeds.

[BigFish 1,988]

47 minutes ago, CowboyCanary said:

Since I don't know, have there been any serious inquiries about outside investment?

 

On 22/08/2021 at 13:49, BigFish said:

In reality there are no investors in football, the only people who make money are the players and other high end employees. Everyone else loses cash, except those who go in for asset stripping. Basic Maths.

Do try and keep up

[Badger 2,412]

4 hours ago, Essjayess said:

Palace, Soton, Burnley etc have reached their's?..in the bottom half of the Prem, season after season worrying if theyve enough to avoid the drop?...a bit like Stoke, Wigan etc...until they got relegated and could not find the  answer to immediately climb straight back into the Prem.

Exactly this. With the level of debt that they are carrying, failure to get repromoted quickly would be disastrous

[Badger 2,412]

3 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Players not good enough for the mighty Burnley!    

Only Lees Malou is tall enough to play for Burnley! 😀

I may be proved wrong, t wouldn't expect Burnley to be spending loads in this window given their levels of debt.

[Badger 2,412]

2 hours ago, 1902 said:

Honestly, I don't know but if I were an investor with no prior loyalties, I would have put my money in Leeds.

You would put it where your investment stood to make the greatest realistic return on investment. This could come in the form of interest you charge the clubs for the loans you give them; plans to spruce the club up and then sell or alternatively, asset stripping.

All have been successful strategies for some investors (whilst many others have failed).

[DraytonBoy 162]

2 hours ago, 1902 said:

I'm sure thats a genuine question, but that's opening up a pinkun can of worms if I have ever seen one. Honestly, I don't know but if I were an investor with no prior loyalties, I would have put my money in Leeds.

Leeds was a massive gamble though and only for someone with deep pockets, 2019/20 was last chance saloon and if they hadn't have gone up the possible losses would have been huge. 

[ricardo 7,401]

31 minutes ago, Badger said:

Only Lees Malou is tall enough to play for Burnley! 😀

I may be proved wrong, t wouldn't expect Burnley to be spending loads in this window given their levels of debt.

Never mind the quality, feel the width😉

[chicken 2,642]

22 hours ago, Indy said:

Again it’s not about the result it’s about the performance, the recruitment and the priorities. We started this weekend with 8 players from our championship team, a 20 year old who’s only played a handful of senior games and two new signings who came in to replace two players who left our squad in Buendia and Skipp, arguably our best two players from last year.

Yes I know we still have 9 days left till the transfer window closes but reality is we fielded a weaker starting 11 side than we finished with last season! That’s not great place to be.

Of course it's about the result. And this team can't be measured by the last two games, they will be measured by where they stand at the end of the season.

Only two players have gone that arguably we miss, and one of those is because we haven't given Sorensen a chance to try and fill that position - Skipp.

It really is pathetic to see how quickly some fans have thrown the team, the coaching staff, the sporting director and the club under a bus after just two games. Utterly gutless and pathetic. Sometimes I wonder how many fans actually deserve a great football club like ours?

[Indy 3,315]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Of course it's about the result. And this team can't be measured by the last two games, they will be measured by where they stand at the end of the season.

Only two players have gone that arguably we miss, and one of those is because we haven't given Sorensen a chance to try and fill that position - Skipp.

It really is pathetic to see how quickly some fans have thrown the team, the coaching staff, the sporting director and the club under a bus after just two games. Utterly gutless and pathetic. Sometimes I wonder how many fans actually deserve a great football club like ours?

No it’s not, sensible people understand the gulf and didn’t except to get any points, but we do demand some effort, after Man City we except some sort of go against Leicester, that same performance this Saturday won’t help.

[chicken 2,642]

Just now, Indy said:

No it’s not, sensible people understand the gulf and didn’t except to get any points, but we do demand some effort, after Man City we except some sort of go against Leicester, that same performance this Saturday won’t help.

What I don't expect is our fans falling into step with Murdoch's Fox news style BS parade on radio.

We have spent a lot of money and so far, the players we have seen all look better than those they replaced - bar two. Skipp - not because we haven't signed anyone, but because we don't even seem to be willing to play with someone playing his role. Sorensen would be the obvious choice, but we've been playing 4-3-3 without a defensive midfielder. The other is Buendia... right now he has no goals and no assists having started against Watford and Newcastle.

I'm not going to say he's rubbish - clearly he isn't. Nor am I going to refer to the last premier league campaign where he contributed a goal and 7 assists. I am going to refer to the fact that Villa fans recognise that their side is vastly changed since last season and they are giving them patience as a result.

We're playing a different formation with brand new players in midfield, some of whom have hardly played together due to a mixture of a half cancelled pre-season and covid going through the squad and only being here for a couple of weeks.

It's hard to I know, but you have to switch off the noise Vs Liverpool/Man City. Even Leicester are far from rubbish. They are genuine top four challengers now having finished in and around those positions a few times in recent years. 

[Indy 3,315]

7 minutes ago, chicken said:

What I don't expect is our fans falling into step with Murdoch's Fox news style BS parade on radio.

We have spent a lot of money and so far, the players we have seen all look better than those they replaced - bar two. Skipp - not because we haven't signed anyone, but because we don't even seem to be willing to play with someone playing his role. Sorensen would be the obvious choice, but we've been playing 4-3-3 without a defensive midfielder. The other is Buendia... right now he has no goals and no assists having started against Watford and Newcastle.

I'm not going to say he's rubbish - clearly he isn't. Nor am I going to refer to the last premier league campaign where he contributed a goal and 7 assists. I am going to refer to the fact that Villa fans recognise that their side is vastly changed since last season and they are giving them patience as a result.

We're playing a different formation with brand new players in midfield, some of whom have hardly played together due to a mixture of a half cancelled pre-season and covid going through the squad and only being here for a couple of weeks.

It's hard to I know, but you have to switch off the noise Vs Liverpool/Man City. Even Leicester are far from rubbish. They are genuine top four challengers now having finished in and around those positions a few times in recent years. 

Sorry I do agree, we have certainly bought young players with potential, that’s totally agreed, but to keep making excuses for Saturday is wrong.

I’ve said Saturday starting 11 was weaker than our best starting 11 from last season, 8 players from last year, Gilmour with very limited experience, Rashica & Lees-Mellou, to replace McClean, Buendia and Skipp.

So I can understand why some fans are a little unhappy considering the lack of performance by most this weekend.

I like you can accept this is our way, we have invested but we’ve not bought in the two areas clearly highlighted by both Webber and Farke as priority! You can see why some people are vocal but unlike others I won’t condemn them to have a different view, I can understand their frustration. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Indy

[norfolkngood 1,087]

I Think it all Depends how the Club is Left after Delia And Hubbie 

Young Tom has found himself in a Position 

he may want to Cash in the Family Silver ? Or he may want to Run the Club in Memory of his Aunt & Uncle who handed it to him ?

I can not see Delia ever Selling 

[chicken 2,642]

15 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

I Think it all Depends how the Club is Left after Delia And Hubbie 

Young Tom has found himself in a Position 

he may want to Cash in the Family Silver ? Or he may want to Run the Club in Memory of his Aunt & Uncle who handed it to him ?

I can not see Delia ever Selling 

Or he has a job, which is to ensure the club doesn't just go to the first vulture, or 2nd, that swoops down thinking it is ripe for the picking. He can also ensure that the club goes to someone who wants to continue on the tradition and not just rebrand it to Soccerball Canary Eagles or something...